Genasi, new bow (and crossbow) need a little love

[sephiroth1084]

So the epic upgrade adds Undead Bane, +6 and a red slot. That's good, but I'd still like to see a little more. This looks like it rally should be the number one undead-killer bow. I'll admit that the DPS on this is decent, and very good vs. any DR/blunt undead, plus it helps party DPS, so it doesn't really need more there.

What I'd like to see added:

• Slashing arrows, giving this the ability to bypass both DR/blunt and slashing, so that players aren't compelled to carry something like a Triple Pos for tough non-blunt DR undead.
• Lightbringer, so that this isn't outclassed in a lot of places by Disruption weapons.

[dkyle]

So, it's great in some situations, but not so good in others? Sounds perfect.

It's a simple drop from a quest. It shouldn't beat a GS, at least not in all cases. Yeah, yeah, ML 12, whatever, but what really counts is that a GS takes a bunch of runs of a level 17 Raid.

[Ausdoerrt]

More like, it's so niche that most decently geared people would barely use it. It does not only not come anywhere close to GS, it even lags slightly behind random gen weapons.

As it stands, the undead fort debuff is the ONLY good thing on this bow. Bow users get a pretty unimpressive selection of named loot to begin with, it'd be nice if the new ones added would actually be good and fun. I mean, compare this to the new named melee items. Rangers want fun toys too, not some niche debuff item.

[sephiroth1084]

So, it's great in some situations, but not so good in others? Sounds perfect.

It's a simple drop from a quest. It shouldn't beat a GS, at least not in all cases. Yeah, yeah, ML 12, whatever, but what really counts is that a GS takes a bunch of runs of a level 17 Raid.

I don't know if I would say it's "great" in some situations. Is Destruction great against Velah? This is a bit better than Destruction, but is also highly dependent on what the rest of the party is doing. If it's you and a bunch of blue bars vs. Sor'jek or the Abbot, it's not going to be very good at all, even though it will bypass DR, since it's losing about as much damage from weapon procs as the Triple Pos is losing to DR.

Holy + Good Burst + Good Blast + Greater Disruption is 9d6 (sorry, mis-stated above as 7d6), which averages to 31.5 before figuring in the crit damage, which applies regardless of Fort, and another 100 (?) on vorpals, which figures in as an additional 5 damage (unless it's higher for Greater Disruption), or 36.5 average before Burst and Blast.

The new bow is bypassing DR (which is 30 on elite Abbot I think) and adding 7 on top of that. With a small crit range, your crits still won't be coming up very often even with the 20% bypass.

Against trash, the Triple Pos would still be the better weapon, even with this bow gaining Greater Undead Bane (or even Undead Bane), as it could insta-kill, and in parties that are weak physically, the Triple Pos probably still wins against lich bosses. The niche for this thing is too narrow right now. Besides, while greensteel may be harder to acquire, it's 3 years old and cannot hang as a specter over everything else that comes along. The fact is that greensteel comes in a very popular pack, from quests that are run frequently, and a Triple Pos bow has more going for it than simply as competition with this as an undead shooter; it's still a rather good weapon to use against basically any evil enemy in the game, though not the best, and has a Raise Dead clicky on it.

I think that creating a new bow that is better against undead bosses is reasonable.

[maddmatt70]

What exactly do you want on a non epic level 16 bow OP. This seems about right for a level 16 bow and has some situational usage even for end game. When its made epic then that is another conversation.

[Ausdoerrt]

What exactly do you want on a non epic level 16 bow OP. This seems about right for a level 16 bow and has some situational usage even for end game. When its made epic then that is another conversation.

See the numbers (in purple) in this thread here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=359826&page=2

The new bow does worse than a +1 Holy of Greater Bane. That's just weak.

And here are examples of what some non-epic ML14-16 bows can do:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Unwavering_Ardency
http://ddowiki.com/page/Bow_of_Sinew
http://ddowiki.com/page/Elemental_Longbow_of_Earth

Now compare to the new bow. Heck, I'd probably choose the ML6 Silver Longbow over this one unless I reeeeally had to lower the mobs' fort!

[ghortagg]

it may be just me but:

-the bow and Xbow (mechanic rogue) appeals strongly to rogue
- i d better have this one (which would take some run at best) than having to make a 3xpos bow (many many many runs to do, and many things to do before)
- i hope the epic version will be the optimal option for ranging an undead

[Ausdoerrt]

Since when does a single-shard GS take manymanymany runs to do? 10 Shrouds tops, unless you're horribly unlucky. Less than that with some plat investment. Even assuming only one Shroud-level toon and no outside help, that's a month - month and a half. Flags and blank mat acquisition can be completed over a single weekend.

I also like how optimistic people are about the drop rates of named loot in the new F2P quests.

[Bakarne]

Abbot on Elite has DR/40 Blunt. Rangers and Artificers are useless in that raid if they use bows, even triple positives. Their base damage is zero, and only the holy/bane/disruption effects apply.

In threads complaining about the recent Abbot changes (which went overboard), one of the suggestions to reduce prejudice against ranged was to introduce a method for making arrows do blunt damage.

I like these bows for Abbot, and I approve of their design. I will definitely be looking to pick up a longbow, and it will likely have an epic version. As a bonus, these bows have silver/good as inherent properties, so I can be lazy and use conjured arrows for Shroud/ToD etc.

[Ausdoerrt]

Abbot on Elite has DR/40 Blunt. Rangers and Artificers are useless in that raid if they use bows, even triple positives. Their base damage is zero, and only the holy/bane/disruption effects apply.

And bows have low base damage, so it doesn't matter if you break DR or not. It's all in the extra damage. See post: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=27

The only thing the new bow has is Holy. You'd need a 50+ STR score to bring it to similar DPS levels to triple pos. which doesn't break DR.

[maddmatt70]

And bows have low base damage, so it doesn't matter if you break DR or not. It's all in the extra damage. See post: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=27

The only thing the new bow has is Holy. You'd need a 50+ STR score to bring it to similar DPS levels to triple pos. which doesn't break DR.

Its better on the abbot and against the epic raiyum then any other bow so shrug again what do you want from a level 16 bow?

Edit: lets see your calcs do you include FE, weapon spec, monk earth stance, and all the other dps factors. I really just dont buy your analysis which is lacking and more about complaining especially since you can make this epic which is almost certainly better.

[Bakarne]

The new bow does reduce fortification against the Abbot who has 100% fortification. The only fort reduction I generally see in that raid right now is Improved Sunder. I would rather take someone with this new bow, than someone stubbornly clutching to a triple positive.

[Ausdoerrt]

Its better on the abbot and against the epic raiyum then any other bow so shrug again what do you want from a level 16 bow?

Did you actually click the link and look at the numbers? Just because you keep repeating that it's "better for Abbot and Raiyum" doesn't actually make it so. Your word versus facts here.

You can also scroll up and look at examples of other ML14-16 I linked for your information and compare.

The new bow does reduce fortification against the Abbot who has 100% fortification. The only fort reduction i generally see in that raid right now is Improved Sunder. I would rather take someone with this new bow, than someone stubbornly clutching to a triple positive.

Again, very dependent on the group. Very niche. Unless you're somehow running abbot with a melee-dominant group with high crit profiles, anyone using the new bow would be wasting a spot. See OP's post.

I'm also suspecting that they only reason this bow was made was to make barbarians happy in Abbot. I want a bow that makes Rangers happy.

(As a side note, anyone with BPS in Abbot should be hurling rocks, not going pewpew.)

[ghortagg]

Flags and blank mat acquisition can be completed over a single weekend.

Maybe for you and for all super hardcore raiders. it took me 6 months for completions of my fisrt blank.
i m about to do my second GS, and it's a dreadful experience

Since when does a single-shard GS take manymanymany runs to do? 10 Shrouds tops, unless you're horribly unlucky.

Let's say 10 runs. 1 Raid by Week end, it goes 3 months. SO yeah it's a bunch of time.


i can grab a hireling, and run those new quest in one evening of play. With a pinch of luck it's one night. without it's 3 weeks. (one try a week)

so between the choice of 3weeks and 3 month i ll choose the new bow.
and the epic version could tell i m (at the end) right

[maddmatt70]

Did you actually click the link and look at the numbers? Just because you keep repeating that it's "better for Abbot and Raiyum" doesn't actually make it so. Your word versus facts here.

You can also scroll up and look at examples of other ML14-16 I linked for your information and compare.



Again, very dependent on the group. Very niche. See OP's post. (As a side note, anyone with BPS in Abbot should be hurling rocks, not going pewpew.)

Yeah it reduces fort that is the fact which those numbers do not depict.. it is also abbot on hard.. Abbot on elite and raiyum have greater dr.

[Bakarne]

Again, very dependent on the group. Very niche. Unless you're somehow running abbot with a melee-dominant group with high crit profiles, anyone using the new bow would be wasting a spot. See OP's post.

I'm also suspecting that they only reason this bow was made was to make barbarians happy in Abbot. I want a bow that makes Rangers happy.

(As a side note, anyone with BPS in Abbot should be hurling rocks, not going pewpew.)

I agree, but as of now, groups running Elite are melee-dominant, and one ranger/artificer with this bow would help. In a Hard Abbot, I would just manyshot and then TWF on a ranger, so I suppose it doesn't matter which bow is used. I suppose a 1d10 base damage would be cool, but who knows if or what the epic version might look like.

[Ausdoerrt]

Maybe for you and for all super hardcore raiders. it took me 6 months for completions of my fisrt blank.
i m about to do my second GS, and it's a dreadful experience

Hah, so I'm a hardcore elitist now. I'm a noob who started playing in late August. And no I don't understand how it can take 6 months to run 4 quests. If you play once a month maybe. But then it could take you another half a year to get the named bow.

i can grab a hireling, and run those new quest in one evening of play. With a pinch of luck it's one night. without it's 3 weeks. (one try a week)

so between the choice of 3weeks and 3 month i ll choose the new bow.
and the epic version could tell i m (at the end) right

You can also grab a hireling and run the Vale quests. Or join one of the gazillion pugs. Just because you choose not to doesn't mean it's impossible. Shroud takes half an hour to complete. Run it once every 3 days, and I can almost guarantee you'll have your triple pos by the end of the month. You're also rather optimistic in assuming that the drop rates for the new items will be so high as to let you have it after 3 runs.

Yeah it reduces fort that is the fact which those numbers do not depict.. it is also abbot on hard.. Abbot on elite and raiyum have greater dr.

I agree, but as of now, groups running Elite are melee-dominant, and one ranger/artificer with this bow would help. In a Hard Abbot, I would just manyshot and then TWF on a ranger, so I suppose it doesn't matter which bow is used. I suppose a 1d10 base damage would be cool, but who knows if or what the epic version might look like.

I'll admit that I mostly run Hard since there's very little motivation to do Elite at this point. But here's the kicker:

Abbot Hard: 1d8(or 1d10) base - 30DR/piercing = 0 base dmg
Abbot Elite: 1d8(or 1d10) base - 40DR/piercing = 0 base dmg

In the end, all you're doing is trading all the wonderful extra damage of a triple pos. GS for 1d8 base damage. Crits? The post I linked actually miscalculated crits for this specific situation, because we're going against 80% fort with Silver Flame bow and 100% fort with any other bow. Which gives:

+1 Holy Burst of disruption:
physical (1d8 + 1 - 40) + effects (2d6 + 4d6 * 10% * 0% + 4d6 + 100 * 5%) = 0 + (7 + 0 + 14 + 5) = 26

+1 Holy of Greater Undead Bane:
physical (1d8 + 1 + 4 - 40) + effects (2d6 + 3d6) = 0 + (7 + 10.5) = 0 + 17.5 = 17.5

Triple positive (+5, Holy, good burst, good blast, Greater disruption):
physical (1d10 + 5 - 40) + effects (2d6 + 1d6 + 4d6 * 10% * 0% + 4d6 * 10% * 0% + 4d6 * 5% * 0% + 6d6 + 100 * 5%) = 0 + (7 + 3.5 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 21 + 5) = 36.5

Bow of silver flame (+4, holy burst):
physical (1d8 + 4) + effects (2d6 + 4d6 * 10% * 20%) = (4.5 + 4) + (7 + 0.28) = 8.5 + 7.28 = 15.78


If this doesn't make it obvious, I'm not sure what else to say. Unless my ranger was in a group with at least 6 eSoS barbarians, I'd pick +1 Holy of GB over the new bow any day.

[Qhualor]

any weapon, even at level 16, should not be ahead of a green steel weapon. a level 16 weapon should be ahead of any weapon below that level. cannith crafted weapons should be between green steel weapons and any level appropriate weapons. epic weapons should be ahead of everything.

so this bow should be behind a triple pos and a cannith crafted bow, but ahead of any loot generated bow below 16, including the silver bow.

[Thrudh]

You'd need a 50+ STR score to bring it to similar DPS levels to triple pos. which doesn't break DR.

lets see your calcs do you include FE, weapon spec, monk earth stance, and all the other dps factors.

Good point... 10+ damage from FE equals 20 STR of that 50 you're looking for.

[Thrudh]

so this bow should be behind a triple pos and a cannith crafted bow, but ahead of any loot generated bow below 16, including the silver bow.

I agree... It's a single drop... It doesn't have to be more powerful than a GS or Cannith crafted bow which take a lot more work.

Just wait for the epic version. It's fine as is. I'm going to want one.