Genasi, new bow (and crossbow) need a little love

[LeLoric]

I find it sad that a weapon with such a niche purpose (mobs with high blunt/DR) is worse than a general purpose weapon (triple pos).
I know it's easier to acquire the new bow, but triple pos works on all undeads, and also brings in a raise dead clicky and is available at level 12 for future lives.

My opinion is that it should be slightly ahead of triple pos on those very specific targets (hard/elite abbot, epic wk) since it's a weapon designed specifically to beat those mobs.
It doesn't need a huge boost, just 1d6 light damage would be enough to make it worth it. Undead bane or Greater Undead Bane would make it really nice.

The fact this gather so much discussion shows it could become an iconic item for next release. And that's something we really need: items that make you want to run these quests!

It's not worse than the trip positive on the higher dr liches. That's the point here it is better on elite abbot and epic wk by up to 7 dmg per shot and only very slightly behind it on hard. 7 damage is a big difference and that doesn't even factor in the fort reduction.

Look the fact is triple positive against undead is ridiculously good. When they made the greater disruption changes it put this thing so far ahead of any other undead beater that it's not even funny. An impossible to loot +5 holy burst of disruption with a large guild slot doesn't even come close to compare. The best cannith crafting option same thing. They even made the new mournlode epic weapons for the challenges, stacked them with some pretty nice effects, and they are not even better with the exception of to hit mattering. And notice I have said nothing about a bow here this is true for any weapon type except handwraps and if there were triple pos handwraps even the mabar wraps would be well in 2nd place.

To say that this bow even in rare circumstances can outperform a triple positive bow is making a pretty good argument for the bow. If they made it any better with this base version they really couldn't add much at all to the epic one with out having an out of balance item. The epic version is probably going to beat out triple positive on any blunt dr skeletons as well as vampires too if silver arrows not used.

[Coldin]

The bows seem just fine to me. Not everyone wants to go to the trouble to make a triple-positive weapon for undead, and if these bows drop easily, then it's a good alterative to have an undead beater. Being able to break through their fortification is also very nice, since then you get critical damage. (And hopefully someday, sneak attack damage)

If the Epic version adds some Greater Undead Bane, or Disruption, then it should be a very good undead killing bow.

[Ausdoerrt]

Comparing it to Unwavering Ardency is silly as well. That is THE bow for leveling, do you honestly expect to see something else like that anytime soon? 2d12 crit 19-20 x3, blur, fear immunity, flaming burst and maybe blinding embers?
The sinew bow is overrated. Probably as rare as the silver flame bow, and a decent all-purpose weapon but still can't be compared to UA nor to a lit2 for leveling purposes. And at cap you'll barely want to use in adq if you don't have a thornlord or an arty to cast good weapons on your UA. It kinda depends on wheter you're using a seeker item or not...and it does NOT have an epic version.

Well, someone claimed that it's better than most ML16 bows. It's not. Nobody's expecting it to beat UA, but compared to other bows you can get at that level, SFB's got some pretty **** narrow uses.

Sinew has the best crit profile among all existing bows, and it's THE bow for anything w/o high fort until you get a litII.

[Cyr]

Looks respectable to me. It is a debuff versus stronger undead mobs. It's a niche use, but a fairly respectable one.

Good group debuff weapons should have lower damage profiles then the pure dps options.

[Ausdoerrt]

Problem is, if there's anyone who deserves a new good DPS weapon, it's the ranged users, and all we get is a crappy niche debuffer that will rarely even be used at all.

Heck, at even Artis get another repeater that's more general use.

[Thrudh]

We'll have to look at how useful it is in "future content" when we see that content.

Someday, we'll have a draco-lich raid... Just saying...

[Thrudh]

Expecting a bow that drops from a F2P quest to be ahead of a GS is plain silly. Especially since triple pos is NOT the first nor the 2nd gs item you'll want to craft. I've been playing a ranged toon since forever and I still don't have a triple pos bow (that's also because I don't run abbot much and don't run epic WK at all tho.)
You'll make a lit2, then you'll likely make an item or two, maybe some melee weapons, some gear for alts...while doing all this, now you can have a very viable undead beater dropping from a F2P quest, that will even have an EPIC version.

Good point.. My archer doesn't have a triple pos bow yet...

You complain that the non-epic version of the silver flame bow is not good enough? Oh look...a non epic Thornlord...how many times do I use it while leveling...mmm...oh it's still in the reincarnation cache at 20? -_- And I'm pretty sure it's far harder to obtain, too.

Exactly... let's see what the epic version looks like...

[nivarch]

It's not worse than the trip positive on the higher dr liches. That's the point here it is better on elite abbot and epic wk by up to 7 dmg per shot and only very slightly behind it on hard. 7 damage is a big difference and that doesn't even factor in the fort reduction.

Look the fact is triple positive against undead is ridiculously good. When they made the greater disruption changes it put this thing so far ahead of any other undead beater that it's not even funny. An impossible to loot +5 holy burst of disruption with a large guild slot doesn't even come close to compare. The best cannith crafting option same thing. They even made the new mournlode epic weapons for the challenges, stacked them with some pretty nice effects, and they are not even better with the exception of to hit mattering. And notice I have said nothing about a bow here this is true for any weapon type except handwraps and if there were triple pos handwraps even the mabar wraps would be well in 2nd place.

To say that this bow even in rare circumstances can outperform a triple positive bow is making a pretty good argument for the bow. If they made it any better with this base version they really couldn't add much at all to the epic one with out having an out of balance item. The epic version is probably going to beat out triple positive on any blunt dr skeletons as well as vampires too if silver arrows not used.

Yes that's a very convincing argument!

I'd still love a very small boost because most people don't run elite abbot but hard these days. But since it's better on epic wk it already has a whole (very niche) usage.

I want to see epic version badly!

[aristarchus1000]

After reading this thread I am pretty convinced that i want the bow for my non-fulltime archer that only shoots during manyshot.

You seem to be making a compelling argument for nerfing the triple pos weapon, which had its power unintentionally boosted with the change in disruption mechanics, much like the mabar wraps (which also got nerfed).

[porq]

We should all remember all of this u13 gear is coming out of a f2p pack. The first f2p epic pack with epic items, in fact.


I don't think this gear is intended to compete with epic or GS equipment, or even high end random loot gen(holy of greater bane, for example). The feeling I get from this gear on a whole is an easy bump up from the random gear really new players find along the way and the stuff we gear our red-headed step child characters with.

When gear is easy to get, I wouldn't expect it to be better than top end weapons or would expect it to be a niche use item. That seems to be the case here.

[FengXian]

We should all remember all of this u13 gear is coming out of a f2p pack. The first f2p epic pack with epic items, in fact.


I don't think this gear is intended to compete with epic or GS equipment, or even high end random loot gen(holy of greater bane, for example). The feeling I get from this gear on a whole is an easy bump up from the random gear really new players find along the way and the stuff we gear our red-headed step child characters with.

When gear is easy to get, I wouldn't expect it to be better than top end weapons or would expect it to be a niche use item. That seems to be the case here.

Yeah this being the first F2P epic pack is nice

I do hope epic versions will not be useless when compared to current end game gear. We still don't know shards/seals/scrolls drop rates, although I assume the base items will be pretty easy to find (and will be in the 3rd completion end reward I guess).

I hope it's "easy to get, not bad" base items and "standard epic rarity, situationally useful" epic versions. After all the good thing about this game loot-wise is that every item should virtually have a situation (quest+build) where it shines

[Ausdoerrt]

As expected, the epic version is lame as well. Only thing added is Undead Bane and a slot? Pfft, horrible.

The only thing this item does is discourage people from ever rolling ranged toons, because evidently, even when new epic items are made, ranged always gets the shaft.

In the name of the Nine Hells, upgrade it to at least Greater Bane (better if Disruption), and add one other damaging effect (like Incadescense that seems so prominent among the items in the pack). An epic item that's only narrowly beating non-epics against its specific narrow niche and inferior to them against anything else should not exist.


Either that, or add another epic bow that's not completely dedicated to beating only 3 enemies in the game.

[LeLoric]

As expected, the epic version is lame as well. Only thing added is Undead Bane and a slot? Pfft, horrible.

The only thing this item does is discourage people from ever rolling ranged toons, because evidently, even when new epic items are made, ranged always gets the shaft.

In the name of the Nine Hells, upgrade it to at least Greater Bane (better if Disruption), and add one other damaging effect (like Incadescense that seems so prominent among the items in the pack). An epic item that's only narrowly beating non-epics against its specific narrow niche and inferior to them against anything else should not exist.


Either that, or add another epic bow that's not completely dedicated to beating only 3 enemies in the game.

The epic version is exceptional. 1d8 base dmg, 5 enhancement value increase (+7 slotted) and 2d6 additional bane dmg for something that already was challenging the best.

If you choose not to use it fine but you are then using subpar equipment. If you want a bow not so specialized go get an epic thornlord it's the best dps bow in the game against 0 fort mobs. Or the very good challenge bow or alchem bows.

Bows actually have a good rate of producing slightly better than greensteel equivalents. Not all other types of weapons do.

[Ausdoerrt]

I don't think any epic item that's barely an improvement over the base can be considered "exceptional".

Double damage dice on an epic is a given. So the only thing we get is +2-3 to attack/damage and 2d6 against undead. Weak.

Even assuming it's easy to acquire and upgrade, this bow would get pulled out for at most 15 minutes per week for the weekly Abbot run. Though probably more like 5 minutes, because throwing roids is still more damage.


The new melee epics are also specialized - but not so narrowly focused and useful in more than just 3 quests.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I don't think any epic item that's barely an improvement over the base can be considered "exceptional".

Double damage dice on an epic is a given. So the only thing we get is +2-3 to attack/damage and 2d6 against undead. Weak.

Even assuming it's easy to acquire and upgrade, this bow would get pulled out for at most 15 minutes per week for the weekly Abbot run. Though probably more like 5 minutes, because throwing roids is still more damage.


The new melee epics are also specialized - but not so narrowly focused and useful in more than just 3 quests.

It does, what, 16.5 extra damage compared to the non-epic version? I'd say that's worthwhile, especially as the non-epic version is already in front on elite and about the same on hard.

The epic and non-epic version give more characters decent to good DPS in one of the hardest raids in the game. I definitely approve of the weapon.

The AB advantage of the epic bow will often see it far outDpS'ing GS afaik as Abbot has quite high AC - especially after you've died once (or twice). This will be particularly noticeable during manyshot (which gives -8 AB while it's active), on strength based ranged characters and artificers who are using the crossbow who want to keep insightful damage on (55 AC on elite, usually denied SA AB bonus and often missing buffs (in my experience)).

Regarding Mournlode Armour; most archers these days have monk levels for 10k stars which denies them access to weaken undead unless they use the silver flame bow or rely on other players (never a safe assumption).

[Ausdoerrt]

most archers these days have monk levels for 10k stars

That's a rather big assumption. Sure, the build's becoming popular, but according to my anecdotal evidence, they're still few and far in beween. So unless you have hard numbers for that, it's a rather weak assumption.

Also, the 16.5 increase is only against undead and assuming it's already slotted.

[Vormaerin]

I have to admit, I'm quite confused by the opposition to this bow. What exactly is wrong with having enemy specific weaponry? All my melee certainly have weapons with narrow uses.

I certainly don't understand why anyone would think that a lvl 16 normal drop should be clearly better than something requiring a minimum of 10+ runs of a lvl 17 raid. More, when you consider that there is close to 0% chance that anyone is making a triple pos bow as their first GS item.

Ausdoerrt, you may be a new player but you are far from a casual player if you are talking about raiding 3/week. Most players in this game don't raid at all or run a raid a few times in pugs. This weapon has a niche use for geared raiders and is very valuable for everyone else.

That sounds like a perfectly designed item to me.

[Angelus_dead]

This will be particularly noticeable during manyshot (which gives -8 AB while it's active)

When did the developers at a -8 attack penalty to Manyshot?

[Munkenmo]

When did the developers at a -8 attack penalty to Manyshot?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Manyshot

first time i've heard of this too, not sure i'm trusting the wiki on this, it warrants further testing imo.

[wax_on_wax_off]

That's a rather big assumption. Sure, the build's becoming popular, but according to my anecdotal evidence, they're still few and far in beween. So unless you have hard numbers for that, it's a rather weak assumption.

Also, the 16.5 increase is only against undead and assuming it's already slotted.

I never saw them before the change, now I'm seeing them in every second group I'm in. Also, the change hasn't peaked and I expect the population will sift until there are almost no non-10k stars archers left (at least among the other than ignorant population).

When did the developers at a -8 attack penalty to Manyshot?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Manyshot

first time i've heard of this too, not sure i'm trusting the wiki on this, it warrants further testing imo.

Well, always just trusted DDOwiki, my and others experiences in game but just jumped on to an old ranger on Sarlona that I don't play anymore and hit manyshot and didn't observer any AB differences. Not sure why this has occurred now as the dispute has arisen in the past without any conclusive evidence either way (so I just assumed that the other parties tested it and didn't like the result so opted out of the conversation). Some secondary testing would be appreciated to lay this matter to rest (and adjust the wiki so as to not mislead people).

My attitude was formed back in pen and paper days.