At-level Turning Tips

[Arnhelm]

Hey all. Enjoying my new cleric, a lot.

About Turning, though...

I have +4 Cha, Command, and Sacred items at level 7. Any other tips that might help with at-level Turning, (which doesn't always work as well as I'd like)? Does at-level Turning get better as one levels up?

[AZgreentea]

I'm no expert in turn undead, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

It becomes less useful at higher levels as you gain spells and abilities that overshadow it. The problem is with how difficult it can be to destroy or hurt the undead vs how quickly you could have simply destroyed them in one shot with another method. The reason is the method used to determine what you do to an undead when you use Turn. The wiki has a nice crunchy explanation:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_Undead

[guardianx2009]

I'm no expert in turn undead, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

It becomes less useful at higher levels as you gain spells and abilities that overshadow it. The problem is with how difficult it can be to destroy or hurt the undead vs how quickly you could have simply destroyed them in one shot with another method. The reason is the method used to determine what you do to an undead when you use Turn. The wiki has a nice crunchy explanation:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_Undead

In epic wizard king, undead mobs have thousands of hp and have High SR. Turn becomes very powerful ability since you cAn 1 shot them.. bypassing all the HP and dc/sr checks.

[SirValentine]

A turn, via Radiant Servant aura, is a very powerful ability to heal yourself and allies continuously for free, while you use your awesome spell Undeath to Death to 1-shot groups of undead if needed.

All the gear slots, enhancements, etc., you dedicate to improving your turning could be better spent improving other things.

[Arnhelm]

...All the gear slots, enhancements, etc., you dedicate to improving your turning could be better spent improving other things.

Examples, if you will, please?

So far, all I put Sacred on my armour and Command on my shield. Both are taking up part of slots I couldn't really put much else on.

The Cha +4 ring adds 2 turns to my count, so that's worthwhile whether I'm using it for Turning or Radiant Burst (RB).

When I revamp at level 9, I'll check out using something other than Command now that I know it has no effect on Turning, or RB, or anything else I use as a Cleric.

I have one Extra Turning enhancement, which again adds to the count for RB. I needed to spend one Action Point to clear a points spent hurdle, and that seemed like as good a filler as any. *shrug*

[Habreno]

TBH, it is something that most find not worth it, since they can't work it. But some do work it well. If you are finding it fun to do, stick with it. Will you be top-tier cleric able to do anything? No. But will you gimp yourself? Heck no.

You play how YOU want to play. Don't let anyone tell you different. Some people here have good advice, some a good word of warning about usefulness. But if you have fun, then by all means.

[Spiffyspiffy]

Your best use for "Turns" is as healing bursts and DVs

[Mubjon]

There is a level 2 spell called seek eternal rest (I think it is level 2 anyway) that will help with turning undead as it grants a +4 to your level for turning.

Other than that when you get to level 6 get a Superior Ardor IV or better yet VI clicky and then turn empower heal and any other meta you picked up on the way to 6. At level content you should kill most undead with a single burst or get them to half health as well as heal those around you.

[Arnhelm]

Ah, I see. Was wondering about how well Radiant Servant might do against undead, too. Thanks for the info. I'll worry less about Turning and concentrate more on other aspects of play.

So far Cleric is the most fun I've had on a char. Maybe I'll make a Clogue and see how that goes.

[Spoonwelder]

Saw the title and expected the normal advice - ignore turns they are a waste of time once you have radiant burst (Level 6 Cleric Pre). But there are instances to be ready to turn stuff (just one example Giant Skel in Reclaiming Memories L19 quest - bursts do nothing to him but even a Palladin with SER and Sacred item can turn it).

Improving turns is possible and fun because once you get to L6 when you turn you destroy not just make them cower....with the PrE.

Don't wast feats on turning but use the following and you won't gimp your character at all.

Seek Eternal Rest spell - as mentioned - cast in any undead quest at the beginning and at shrines.
Sacred and/ or Hallowed Items - shield or helms...
Improved Turning Enhancement - once turning truly becomes ineffective you can swap this out.

Note command item makes no difference in turning.

[Arnhelm]

Nice to know that about Command. I'll dump that when I recraft my armour. Thank you.

I'll remember Eternal Rest, and use it when appropriate. Might come in handy in Wizard's Tomb, too.

The only Turning Feat I have in my current build list is the one which adds 4 to number of Turns per rest. Not sure yet if I'll use that or not, but it's in the build list for now.

[guardianx2009]

The single largest factor in making turns effective is turn levels. Each time u turn, you effective turn level is your base +-4. Charisma effects this variance, the higher you cha the more likely you gain +4 and the less variance (+0-4 instead of -4 - +4). If your cleric turn level cannot beat the HD of the mob, then your turn is useless against it.

That being said, to determine your base turn level:
You cleric level + enhancements:
Seek eternal rest +4
Sacred/eternal faith item
Improved turning enhancements
Cleric past lives

Cant remember if RS raises turn level.

The CR of the mobs are close indicators to their HD. Coloured mobs have much higher hd.. Epic mobs have cr 33-35.

[wax_on_wax_off]

On the clerics that I've found my turning effective I've usually had 16 base charisma anyway (for DMIII with +2 tome).

If you stack up all the various options to increase turning ability I've found it quite useful for times when Radiant Servant Blast isn't effective or is unavailable (before level 6). Turn Undead has a wider area of effect than blast so can get the weaker enemies that are spread out more (like arcane skeletons).

It's interesting to hear that it is possible to turn undead in epic wiz king. Might be a decent option to farm scrolls. I wonder if the undead in epic black loch can be similarly turned? Care to post the stats that you need to be able to accomplish this?

[guardianx2009]

It's interesting to hear that it is possible to turn undead in epic wiz king. Might be a decent option to farm scrolls. I wonder if the undead in epic black loch can be similarly turned? Care to post the stats that you need to be able to accomplish this?

Sure.

Like I said earlier: the most important single factor in determining your turn ability is your effective turn level. Your effective turn level must be at least the HD of the undead or higher to turn them. Note that we are just talking about the 1st roll (effective turn level), the 2nd roll (# of undead turned) is irrelevant in epic: their HD is too high. You will only turn 1 and only 1 undead at a time.

My cleric Base turn level breakdown is as follows:

Cleric Level               +20
Eternal Faith (item)        +4
Seek Eternal Rest (spell)   +4
CL: Past Life x2 (feat)     +4
Improved Turning III (enh.) +3
================================
Base Turn Level             35

Since my cleric has 28 CHA (+9 bonus) this sets up my turn check table as follows:

D20 Turn Check    Effective Turn Level
1 - 3              35 (Base +0)
4 - 6              36 (Base +1)
7 - 9              37 (Base +2)
10 - 12            38 (Base +3)
13 - 20            39 (Base +4)

This means CR35 or lower undead are turned 100% of the time and a roll of 7 or higher is needed for CR37. (Undead in eWiz are CR 33-35.) I don't have red fens yet, so I cannot tell what their HD is there (I'm assuming they'd be similar).

In summary to effectively turn undead in epic, each point in cleric turn level is significant. +2 item, Seek Eternal Rest, and Improved turning are easily acquired, the only one that is difficult to acquire is the Cleric PL feat. If I didn't have two cleric pl's this is what my turn table would look like:

D20 Turn Check    Effective Turn Level
1 - 3              31
4 - 6              32
7 - 9              33
10 - 12            34
13 - 20            35

This means a first life cleric with 28 Charisma, can only turn CR33 undead in epic on a roll 7 or higher, and CR35 on a roll of 13 or higher.

[painkiller3]

...
I wonder if the undead in epic black loch can be similarly turned?
...

can someone post the turn level needed to turn in black loch?

[guardianx2009]

Testing in game reveals I made a miscalculation in my previous post, it appears eternal faith is actually +4, not +2:

Eternal Faith:
Your effective level while Turning is increased by 2, the maximum hit dice you can affect is increased by 2 and the total hit dice you can affect is increased by 4.

I updated the numbers in my original post above to reflect this.

[Micki]

I'm a quite new player and didn't really figure out the use of turn undead until lvl 4 or 5 (I was mostly meleing with my cleric).. and stopped using it at maybe lvl 7 (now at lvl 13), since it didn't do anything (I usually play quests elite, own level -2 up to own level). But, radiant servant is great and I've just added (read turned on) empower, maximise and quicken (I forgot if empower healing also works on them, if it does then I turned it on as well) to bursts and aura. Haven't tried the burst yet with the metas turned on, but I'm expecting it to be a lot more powerful than without them Radiant servant also means you regenerate your turns, so you don't really need that many.

[The-Last-Wolf]

Hi All,

An old thread with lots of numbers. Enjoy

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300089

Also last but one post here for more

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=266760&page=2

Regards
Wolf

[EpiKagEMO]

should be able to pwn low level undeads with a decent cha. Seek eternal rest as some others may have said, and eagle's splendor.

with radiant servant, maximize, empower healing spell, empower spell > its free super 100+ mass heal. right click to customize when you want a certain metamagic for the spell and start zerging undead quests.