How should they implement Domains?

[Meat-Head]

Hello DDO Brethren and Sistren,


I firmly believe NOW is the time to be getting some good ideas about domains out there. There have been other threads on this, but not in a while. My purpose here is NOT to petition that they do domains. (They should.. and I started a different thread for that purpose). This one is for creativity on HOW they should do it. I will compile what I see as the best and/or consensus ideas.


First idea to mull over: I feel like there NEEDS to be an economic incentive to work on domains for the devs. Here's my idea: You release domains with 5 choices that are available to anyone FREE. Then over time you add more choices that would require TP and/or favor unlock. I see this as a win-win-win scenario. Thoughts??


Let the ideas roll--

[Meat-Head]

reserved for compilation

[Mubjon]

If they did do domains I think they should be done as enhancements that gives specific spells or abilities based on the Domain.

For example if they had the domain Aberration Hunter, first stage they would get to turn aberrations as if they were attempting to turn undead and gain access to Divine Favor (acts as the spell as they level up) as a clicky 5 times a day or something. Second level they would get to have Divine Power (acts like the spell as they level up) and get a clicky 3x per rest that adds +4 profane bonus to strength and Constitution plus a +2 bonus to their level for turning attempts. And the last level would grant them the ability to make any weapon they hold an Greater Aberration Bane weapon and be able to cast horrid wilting through a clicky 2 times per rest or something similar and an additional +2 to their attempts at turning.

You could do this with any of the domains and there is quite a few to choose from.

[Meat-Head]

If they did do domains I think they should be done as enhancements that gives specific spells or abilities based on the Domain.

For example if they had the domain Aberration Hunter, first stage they would get to turn aberrations as if they were attempting to turn undead and gain access to Divine Favor (acts as the spell as they level up) as a clicky 5 times a day or something. Second level they would get to have Divine Power (acts like the spell as they level up) and get a clicky 3x per rest that adds +4 profane bonus to strength and Constitution plus a +2 bonus to their level for turning attempts. And the last level would grant them the ability to make any weapon they hold an Greater Aberration Bane weapon and be able to cast horrid wilting through a clicky 2 times per rest or something similar and an additional +2 to their attempts at turning.

You could do this with any of the domains and there is quite a few to choose from.

So each tier should have two parts? Like an ability and a clickie-style spell?

What do you think about the idea of 5 free domains and more for TP?

[azrael4h]

First off: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cl...ndDomainSpells

This is the D20SRD version of Clerical Domains. As you see, the Cleric chooses two Domains, based on deity and alignment, which grants a spell at each level, plus another granted power. War domain, for example, grants martial proficiency in that deity's favored weapon, and weapon focus in the same.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

The D20 domains themselves. As you see, some would be vastly more powerful than others, depending on build type. A casting Cleric would be foolish not to take Death, as it opens up Wail of the Banshee as an option. Some domains are all but worthless in DDO's environment, and many spells have not been implemented at all, or would have no use if they were.

Other domains are available in the myriad of splat books out there. I would sooner disembowel myself than try and list them all. At any rate, here's a reference of sorts for everyone to see what we're discussing.

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In any case, I think keeping the two domain limit is fine, but since Clerics can swap around deities like they change their clothes in DDO, we need to change that.

Thus, the first change would be to implement a feat like FvS, selecting the deity at creation. Follower of <Insert Critter Here>. This would be a bit more flavorful, though I expect that about 90% will remain Sov Host followers, except for the odd TWF Scimitar Elf and Half-Elf, maybe TWF Drow, and WF Greatsword Clerics. Not that I can recall seeing many of these, but that's beside the point.

Then, our domain options would be based on deity selection, without making them easily changed out as with enhancements. Go by the Eberron Campaign Setting for diety domain choices. One thing I would like to see is the dieties of Eberron get split up and expanded upon; the Sov Host is multiple deities, as is the Dark Six, for example. This would affect Paladins and Favored Souls as well. Basically, we're talking a Divine Pass in it's own right.

Taking the Domains could be a taken feat at level 1 for each Domain, with the domain feat opening up the domain spells, however they are implemented.

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After this, How do we implement the Domains themselves? The granted powers, the ones that would actually be usable in DDO (like using turn attempts against Elementals of different types from your domain) are fine. Most are weak, or limited use. Several ideas:

1 - Adds a permanently memorized spell for each level, based on domain. This would be following more in line with the PnP versions, except in PnP it was a 1 use spell; we had slots, not spell points. Thus, domains would be considerably more powerful, particularly ones like Death. It would also mean that many domains would open up spell slots, as they cover existing Divine spells like Blade Barrier or Destruction.

2 - Adds a limited-use clicky effect for each spell level. More like the Dragonmarks. However, Dragonmarks themselves are considered wasted feats; Domains functioning similarly would possibly not be considered worthwhile to look at. While closer in power-level to PnP, I'm concerned that doing so would mean that Clerical domains are only slightly less worthless than Dragonmarks are currently, and only because they are free.

3 - Fewer spells granted at certain levels as SLA-type things rather than limited use clickies or unfettered spells, but offering additional ones through enhancements. I like this better; it retains our current spell slot layout. It also means we can cherry pick through the domain powers for ones that fit DDO, and prevent way over-powering the Cleric class.

Travel Domain, for example, could offer Longstrider at level 1, at level 5 DDoor, at level 10 Teleport, at level 15 Greater Teleport, and at 20 Phase Door (which could be coded to work only on existing destroyable walls and openable doors). This leaves out Fly (OP), Locate Object and Find the Path (not useful in DDO current design), and Astral Projection (needs WAY more work than worthwhile to make useful). Some domains will need more work than others. Fire could be 1 Burning Hands, 5 Fire Shield, 10 Firewall, 15 Fire Storm, 20 Incendiary Cloud. Those with Summons can have the Summon itself changed to a specific critter, rather than the current Summon <Critter> X. The trick will be to make the domain powers desirable enough to make a player want them, but not so powerful that every Cleric will have the same domains.

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I like using enhancements to boost the Domains themselves. In fact, one of the issues with some of the domains in regards to DDO's current design vs PnP, is that their damage spells would lack any means of enhancing them. This is an issue with the Dragonmarks as well. Thus, I propose that, regardless of how they are implemented, those Domains with damage-type spells give an enhancement line to boost their damage, crit chance, and crit damage. Taking Fire domain would open up Fire-related enhancements, for example. Otherwise, they're not going to be worth casting. This is already an issue with some of the Clerical damage spells, like Fire Storm.

[Mubjon]

So each tier should have two parts? Like an ability and a clickie-style spell?

What do you think about the idea of 5 free domains and more for TP?

I would think that to do it right they would have to have 2 parts as each domain granted a special ability to begin with and as the Cleric gained power (levels) they would gain more access to the special abilities within that domain. Granted that might be house rules for the group I played with as we had to gain a certain level to get more benefits from the domain.

For instance a level 1 cleric that took the Hellfire domain would not get the firewall ability til around level 7 or 8.

Now I think that it would be easier if the Devs used the same system they have in place already for other enhancements/PrE and even feats that grant abilities on a clicky. Like the lesser dragonmark of sentinel for example grants 2 clickies for the elemental resistance. So too should the Domains if they were instituted to keep the Cleric and Favor Souls from being way overpowered at lower levels.

And I would not let Clerics choose two domains or limit them to one domain at level 1 and another one at level 12 maybe would be best.

As far as giving them access to 5 for free accounts and the rest either with TP or favor I would think that would be a great idea. As it would help support the game and still give those that could not or would not help support it a taste at what they are missing. The question would be what 5 domains would be free?

[Meat-Head]

I would think that to do it right they would have to have 2 parts as each domain granted a special ability to begin with and as the Cleric gained power (levels) they would gain more access to the special abilities within that domain. Granted that might be house rules for the group I played with as we had to gain a certain level to get more benefits from the domain.

For instance a level 1 cleric that took the Hellfire domain would not get the firewall ability til around level 7 or 8.

Now I think that it would be easier if the Devs used the same system they have in place already for other enhancements/PrE and even feats that grant abilities on a clicky. Like the lesser dragonmark of sentinel for example grants 2 clickies for the elemental resistance. So too should the Domains if they were instituted to keep the Cleric and Favor Souls from being way overpowered at lower levels.

Dragonmark tech seems fine to me. But as was mentioned earlier, boosting damage/effects might be tricky. Then again, SHOULD a fire domain cleric's firewall be as powerful as an arcanes? I'm not so sure.

[Mubjon]

Dragonmark tech seems fine to me. But as was mentioned earlier, boosting damage/effects might be tricky. Then again, SHOULD a fire domain cleric's firewall be as powerful as an arcanes? I'm not so sure.

Well I agree with much of what Azrael posted on the enhancements and such. It is why I did not bother to respond to his post directly and only mentioned the one part I disagreed with and that was giving divines access to two domains.

I agree they should not be more powerful than the arcane version. But, giving divines 2 or 3 tiers that will boost them 25 to 30% would not hurt I think. Tier one is what 20% and then 5% for each tier after that? Letting a divine take force enhancements to tier 3 would not be unbalancing at all, neither would letting them take til tier three of fire.

Of course, it would still make all the melees whine as more and more divines find out how easy it would be to solo.

[Meat-Head]

Of course, it would still make all the melees whine as more and more divines find out how easy it would be to solo.

This is on the list of "PROS" right?

[Mubjon]

This is on the list of "PROS" right?

As far as I am concerned yes

Others though? We already see groups waiting around 40 minutes or longer for a cleric or fvs that has not yet figured out how powerful they are. Domains would see far more Clerics and FvS solo'oing all content and never joining a Pug

[azrael4h]

As far as I am concerned yes

Others though? We already see groups waiting around 40 minutes or longer for a cleric or fvs that has not yet figured out how powerful they are. Domains would see far more Clerics and FvS solo'oing all content and never joining a Pug

Well, Clerics. FvS won't be affected, since I don't believe they get domain spells (I'd have to dig out the book, and don't feel like it). They will, I believe, result in an increase of Cleric population though. At least for a time. But only if the domains are useful. Whether people stay with their clerics depends on whether they're forced into nanny-botting only too much, and whether they can make use of their abilities.

As to the number of domains being limited, there were feats, IIRC, which allowed you to take additional domains. But, it all depends on how they are implemented. I like the thought of the domains giving additional powers as the cleric levels up, as well as offering enhancement-based alternatives.

As far as the Dragonmarks go, there was a section in the Let's Talk:Enhancements thread about them. Notably, they are underpowered and over-priced. Very few people work the marks into their builds, and then it's hard to argue that their making the best use out of those three feats. The exceptions are a crafting-bot Human Dragonmarked Artificer, and a Human Chimera's Fang Tank. I don't think making Domains out of our current Dragonmarks will help Clerics any. In fact, I think that would be insulting the Cleric population, to make useless as Dragonmarks Domains.

Not getting the full damage lines is fine, though in the case of Fire, Clerics already get a few fire-based spells and should probably be considered for a line to boost them. Right now, the only time I see any of those spells is with a few Hirelings. I'd say the first 20% would be plenty, but I'd want to see how it worked out live first before making such a commitment.

The differences in DDO and PnP mean both that the limitations in PnP don't work, and that the expected balance from the original design doesn't work. 1-2 use per rest clickies are worthless. Period. Don't bother wasting time implementing them if they are going to be that way. Especially for the short-duration buffs.

Spell choice goes along way towards ensuring they are not over-powered. Fire domain does not need to offer Firewall as one of the spells if people feel that is over-powering. Fireball can work as well. In fact, with Fire Shield as a domain spell, I'd expect it to remain a popular choice for Clerics to take even if no damage spells were present. I've used more than enough Fireshield scrolls on my Cleric life and on my FvS to know that. Death domain would definitely skew things with Wail; so don't give them Wail.

Maybe long regeneration periods for the clicky/SLA use sort of like the FvS Wings situation is now? It's IMO what melee Action Boosts need as well. 5 uses, but when they regenerate over time. This would keep offensive spells from being spammable, while not really negatively affecting the short term buffs that a straight limit would make utterly useless.

Regardless, I'm against limited per rest uses. That works fine for extended abilities like Rage or Bard songs, that can last 5 or more minutes and have more uses than that anyway. But for straight offensive abilities or short term buffs like Haste or Fire Shield, it makes them garbage. And yes, I feel that way about the Action Boosts too; they should be more sustainable than 5-9 uses at most.

As far as pay-to-win, no. Don't implement them if it's pay-to-win. Your financial incentive is player retention and new players coming in and spending money because they can actually play a CLERIC, not a slave. Far too many people leave because they roll a Cleric, join a pug, and get the notion that they are nothing more than a slave for other people to play off of, and even at times have to spend real money to support those other players.

[Mubjon]

Well, Clerics. FvS won't be affected, since I don't believe they get domain spells (I'd have to dig out the book, and don't feel like it). They will, I believe, result in an increase of Cleric population though. At least for a time. But only if the domains are useful. Whether people stay with their clerics depends on whether they're forced into nanny-botting only too much, and whether they can make use of their abilities.

As to the number of domains being limited, there were feats, IIRC, which allowed you to take additional domains. But, it all depends on how they are implemented. I like the thought of the domains giving additional powers as the cleric levels up, as well as offering enhancement-based alternatives.

As far as the Dragonmarks go, there was a section in the Let's Talk:Enhancements thread about them. Notably, they are underpowered and over-priced. Very few people work the marks into their builds, and then it's hard to argue that their making the best use out of those three feats. The exceptions are a crafting-bot Human Dragonmarked Artificer, and a Human Chimera's Fang Tank. I don't think making Domains out of our current Dragonmarks will help Clerics any. In fact, I think that would be insulting the Cleric population, to make useless as Dragonmarks Domains.

Not getting the full damage lines is fine, though in the case of Fire, Clerics already get a few fire-based spells and should probably be considered for a line to boost them. Right now, the only time I see any of those spells is with a few Hirelings. I'd say the first 20% would be plenty, but I'd want to see how it worked out live first before making such a commitment.

The differences in DDO and PnP mean both that the limitations in PnP don't work, and that the expected balance from the original design doesn't work. 1-2 use per rest clickies are worthless. Period. Don't bother wasting time implementing them if they are going to be that way. Especially for the short-duration buffs.

Spell choice goes along way towards ensuring they are not over-powered. Fire domain does not need to offer Firewall as one of the spells if people feel that is over-powering. Fireball can work as well. In fact, with Fire Shield as a domain spell, I'd expect it to remain a popular choice for Clerics to take even if no damage spells were present. I've used more than enough Fireshield scrolls on my Cleric life and on my FvS to know that. Death domain would definitely skew things with Wail; so don't give them Wail.

Maybe long regeneration periods for the clicky/SLA use sort of like the FvS Wings situation is now? It's IMO what melee Action Boosts need as well. 5 uses, but when they regenerate over time. This would keep offensive spells from being spammable, while not really negatively affecting the short term buffs that a straight limit would make utterly useless.

Regardless, I'm against limited per rest uses. That works fine for extended abilities like Rage or Bard songs, that can last 5 or more minutes and have more uses than that anyway. But for straight offensive abilities or short term buffs like Haste or Fire Shield, it makes them garbage. And yes, I feel that way about the Action Boosts too; they should be more sustainable than 5-9 uses at most.

As far as pay-to-win, no. Don't implement them if it's pay-to-win. Your financial incentive is player retention and new players coming in and spending money because they can actually play a CLERIC, not a slave. Far too many people leave because they roll a Cleric, join a pug, and get the notion that they are nothing more than a slave for other people to play off of, and even at times have to spend real money to support those other players.

When I mentioned Dragonmarks it was to show that we had something in place already that the Devs could use to make the clicky part of the domains work. I would rather the Domains be enhancements that a cleric has to choose to give up something else to get use of. I did not mean to make them like a feat, but used the dragonmark of sentinel as the example of what is in the game now.

Yes it would suck only having 5 to 9 uses of an ability, but these are pretty powerful if they are implemented right for a class that is already quite powerful on its own.

Could tie them to a SLA with long cooldowns and free metamagics such as what the arcanes get now.

[Meat-Head]

When I mentioned Dragonmarks it was to show that we had something in place already that the Devs could use to make the clicky part of the domains work. I would rather the Domains be enhancements that a cleric has to choose to give up something else to get use of. I did not mean to make them like a feat, but used the dragonmark of sentinel as the example of what is in the game now.

Yes it would suck only having 5 to 9 uses of an ability, but these are pretty powerful if they are implemented right for a class that is already quite powerful on its own.

Could tie them to a SLA with long cooldowns and free metamagics such as what the arcanes get now.

That was my understanding of what we were meaning by "dragonmarks". I suppose the options would be uses-per-day, unlimited with cooldown, or SP-based. Actually any of those are fine with me as long as the first option included a regeneration feature.

[JasonJi72]

Since Domains where originally balanced with diety selection, one way to get around the massive headache of having to incorporate that into an mmo is to only allow one domain. I am not sure you could take evil as a domain since you cannot be evil in ddo, but who knows what they will incorporate. Giving clerics firewall at level 7 and/or wail of the banshee at level 17 seems like a strong boost to an already powerful class.

Why does it matter? We will all be playing Druids anyway.

[Meat-Head]

Since Domains where originally balanced with diety selection, one way to get around the massive headache of having to incorporate that into an mmo is to only allow one domain. I am not sure you could take evil as a domain since you cannot be evil in ddo, but who knows what they will incorporate. Giving clerics firewall at level 7 and/or wail of the banshee at level 17 seems like a strong boost to an already powerful class.

Why does it matter? We will all be playing Druids anyway.

I might even settle for ONE domain... What I won't settle for: ZERO domains!!