To the developers - Suggestions for balance changes.

[Gremmlynn]

Like I said earlier, I don't like balance, and will not bow down at it's alter. This is a roleplaying game, and each class has it specialty. If you want a more "balanced" character that can solo things and survive, try multi-classing, and putting points into UMD. You'd be amazed what a 17 Ranger/2 Monk/1 Rogue can do, or a 12 Ftr/6 Pally/2 Monk can do. The later has been able to solo VoD on Hard, I believe. And, you want more love? Ha!

Wow, a swing and a miss. It's not about having more balanced characters that can do everything well, the game already has WF wiz/rogues and arties for that. Balance is about not having those sorts of characters so people have a reason to bring something else along and more play styles are represented by the game.

As it stands if your idea of fun is hitting things with a big stick your options are to solo ineffectively due to the inherent dependencies your class suffers or hope someone takes pity on you and invites you to a group despite the handicaps the inherent dependencies your class suffers under brings to the group (and even here you generally are more a spectator than a participant).

[Ziindarax]

not signed. They should have more penalties on silver flame pot not less then they do currently. Silver flame pots are another easy button and discourage group and class diversity.

I disagree. Virtually all of the best (non-caster) builds in this game are multi-class splits that have UMD as one of the core stats, and the gear largely revolving around deployment of scrolls and the like in addition to the build's "primary" gear set(s).

Logically, to be apt as a non-caster, you would practically have to shoehorn yourself into a cookie-cutter build. This would be as restricting as the proposed (but widely hated by most multi-class build utilizers) three-tree limit of the new enhancement system.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

after spending all that time reading this i do agree that the balance needs to be restored ~was it ever true balance in the first place?~

[psi0nix]

Melee is well, melee, they have a job in the game, as do all the classes, I think alot of this has come about since the whole TR thing was brought in, because now you can extend your caster into a solo machine, and it seems nowadays if your not a "solo machine" then no-one wants to either play that character or group with one.

Remember when groups for raids where primarily DPS Melee ? - 2 cleric / one caster / maybe 2 / trapper(rouge).

I remember having alot of trouble getting accepted into groups because "we already have a caster" .

Now it's all "BYOH, and must be self sufficient." - melee have never been self sufficient, why should they be ? whats wrong with a "healer" doing their job and healing them ? - (instead of hero-soloing the quest / saving all their SP for blade barriers to kite through). Alot of "healers" I see lately are lucky to give you their aura let alone a mass / spot heal. Everyone used to have specific jobs but no longer, as game technique like "zerging" and TR'd stats have made it a different game. Not that I am against TR' I did recently myself, but I still like the "old" group dynamic of primarily Melee DPS, healer for heals, and caster for end boss nuke / CC.

It's not the classes that need to be balanced it's the overall attitude of gameplay. No-one seems to want to play or group with anything less than the best, it really makes it a dragged out affair to get a pug going sometimes.

I have a barb and a fighter I group with regular, and I wouldn't have it any other way, the three of us smash it, and I can save my mana mostly for the end boss as a sorc should.

[Symerith]

Turbine needs to make some changes in favor of melees, and that madstone change is definitely not in their favor.

Idk about the other servers but since a month or so on Khyber, some epic groups are only looking for casters. I did join some and I can say those caster/divine only eChronos, Shrouds, eDA, and other epics have been the smoothest by far. Fast completions with little to no deaths.

Melees need some love. It's just not acceptable that a 20 barbarian is out DPS by a caster or a healer.

The obvious solution would be to make melees more self sufficient. They will be accepted in groups and still contribute. The easy button would be to reduce the negs on SF potions. It would still be very hard to get them and they are expensive.

I hate to say it but my WF FvS does way more damage than my monster build pure DPS. And I still need to heal those barbarians. So why should I bother taking them along in epics when I can have a caster group that will be self sufficient & instakill/nuke everything.

[Forzah]

Turbine needs to make some changes in favor of melees, and that madstone change is definitely not in their favor.

Idk about the other servers but since a month or so on Khyber, some epic groups are only looking for casters. I did join some and I can say those caster/divine only eChronos, Shrouds, eDA, and other epics have been the smoothest by far. Fast completions with little to no deaths.

Melees need some love. It's just not acceptable that a 20 barbarian is out DPS by a caster or a healer.

The obvious solution would be to make melees more self sufficient. They will be accepted in groups and still contribute. The easy button would be to reduce the negs on SF potions. It would still be very hard to get them and they are expensive.

I hate to say it but my WF FvS does way more damage than my monster build pure DPS. And I still need to heal those barbarians. So why should I bother taking them along in epics when I can have a caster group that will be self sufficient & instakill/nuke everything.

There are two solutions to improve balance: make melee more self-sufficient, or make casters less self-sufficient. To be frank, I think melee are quite cool as they are now, and the real problem lies in the strength of the casters. Therefore, it's probably better do reduce the self-sufficiency (and damage) of casters. It seems better to nerf casters, because most content is already trivial... by buffing melee the content becomes even easier.

[Ziindarax]

Turbine needs to make some changes in favor of melees, and that madstone change is definitely not in their favor.

Idk about the other servers but since a month or so on Khyber, some epic groups are only looking for casters. I did join some and I can say those caster/divine only eChronos, Shrouds, eDA, and other epics have been the smoothest by far. Fast completions with little to no deaths.

Melees need some love. It's just not acceptable that a 20 barbarian is out DPS by a caster or a healer.

The obvious solution would be to make melees more self sufficient. They will be accepted in groups and still contribute. The easy button would be to reduce the negs on SF potions. It would still be very hard to get them and they are expensive.

I hate to say it but my WF FvS does way more damage than my monster build pure DPS. And I still need to heal those barbarians. So why should I bother taking them along in epics when I can have a caster group that will be self sufficient & instakill/nuke everything.

Casters were made more powerful than melee's in this game because traditionally, casters have always been more powerful than melee's by level 20+. The problem with DDO's implementation of it is that they short-changed the melee's out of many of the feats/tactics they had in P&P (that, if implemented in DDO, would make them considerably more effective).

After U13 goes live, I am going to TR my main character Ziind into a WF FvS because they're said to be so powerful that they can solo elite from start to level 20 (will need to post a build I've worked out in the character builder to see if it's any good).

[Ziindarax]

Another thought has occurred to me. What if the heal and repair skills did more than just restore hit points at a shrine and revive near-dead people? What if they also allowed one to render healing and repairs as needed (either on themselves, or others)? By doing this, there would be a greater incentive toward buying healing/repair kits that currently are simply being thrown away, or sold as vendor trash.

Here's what I am thinking:

At a base, a healing kit restores about 10% of a recipients heal + 10% of a user's current heal skill (but it would be no less than .5% for those whose heal skills are beneath 10). So for example, if I had 10 points total in the heal/repair skill, a regular heal/repair kit would heal 11% of the recipient's total health.

+1 adds 10% more to healing than a regular kit.

+2 adds 10% more than the +1.

+3 and up would require a higher heal skill in order to receive the full benefits of them, but continue with the 10% increment. So a +5 healing kit would heal 50% + 10% of the current skill.

However, the effects would require a bit of time to take full effect; you would be healed over time for the amounts stated above, but if you wander into combat before a timer runs out, you risk having your wounds reopen if you are a non-warforge, or repair components malfunctioning before they are fully calibrated. In the case of the healing kit, you would suffer bleeding damage if your wounds re-open, and if you are a warforged, you take a speed penalty akin to the silver flame potions + blood rage penalty.

I think this would make healing/repair kits more useful than they currently are (usually not at all).

[Ravoc-DDO]

To the devs: please add friendly fire.

[licho]

About heal/repair skill:
I have similar idea (and many other ppl as well) but i see it the way when each use of heal skill on self or ally will last 6sec, and restore skill value + 1d20. So if given enought time everyone can top himself in cheap way with the kits, and high heal value.

[BlackSteel]

After U13 goes live, I am going to TR my main character Ziind into a WF FvS because they're said to be so powerful that they can solo elite from start to level 20 (will need to post a build I've worked out in the character builder to see if it's any good).

i find an arti even easier to level. a fvs will be more effective after hitting cap just b/c they're sturdier and have leap of faith. altho a capped arti is still a blast to play

[Maelwyn]

Wow, a swing and a miss. It's not about having more balanced characters that can do everything well, the game already has WF wiz/rogues and arties for that. Balance is about not having those sorts of characters so people have a reason to bring something else along and more play styles are represented by the game.

As it stands if your idea of fun is hitting things with a big stick your options are to solo ineffectively due to the inherent dependencies your class suffers or hope someone takes pity on you and invites you to a group despite the handicaps the inherent dependencies your class suffers under brings to the group (and even here you generally are more a spectator than a participant).

Guess you didn't read the rest of what I wrote.

In a nutshell, I had said that this thread was discussing balance, and in particular whether or not melees needed some love from the Devs (i.e. more self-healing, more self-sufficiency, more special tactics/feats/abilities). I don't think so myself.

Overall, melees do their role. Casters do their role. Trappers do their role. Healers do their role. Etc., etc. The point is, this is supposed to be a roleplaying game. If you want to play a game where every class is basically the same (e.g. in scope of power) then I've suggested waiting for the 4th edition Neverwinter MMO to release later this year. 4th edition grants every class healing surges (self healling) and daily/encounter/at-will powers (equal powers as any class of the same level, basically--your magic missile does the same damage as my cleave, for example). If the idea is for more balance of classes in DDO, then the game should shift from being based on 3.5 rules, to implementing 4th edtion rules. 3.5 wasn't designed to balance the classes, nor were the versions of rules before it.

The problem that comes from granting melees (say like pure barbarians or fighters) easier ways to heal themselves (surges, more amp, better pots, regeneration abilities, etc.) is that it takes away from the ideal of the party system. D&D and DDO is built around the idea of dungeon crawls, quests, and raids, usually in full groups of a cooperative player characters (i.e. parties consisting of melees, trappers, casters, buffer, and healers). Usually, you're going to find in a party of six, elements of that mix. If suddenly, melees don't need a healer (because the Devs "balance" them, granting them self healing abilities), then suddenly healers become the odd-man out. A D&D party is designed to have healers. If they are no longer needed, then who will play them? And, doesn't that make this another game, entirely? So, to stay true to D&D, is to keep the classes true to their roles. Clerics are usually the healers. Fighters are usually the melees. Rogues are usually the trappers. Etc. A player's playstyle can dictate whether they go the route of their character class' normal role, or try something different. But, overall, each class has its designed role. Hence, this is why I said, if you want to "balance" your melee character, why not try multiclassing? Or, shoot, if self-healing is what you want, try a Paladin, or many of the battle-cleric or FvS melee builds out there. However, if you want to play a pure dps fighter or barbarian type, then just accept that playing a class like that has its strengths and weaknesses just like all classes do.

[Ziindarax]

About heal/repair skill:
I have similar idea (and many other ppl as well) but i see it the way when each use of heal skill on self or ally will last 6sec, and restore skill value + 1d20. So if given enought time everyone can top himself in cheap way with the kits, and high heal value.

So basically the amount of health restored per second is skill value + 1d20? That's not bad, and is more likely to be implemented than my proposal (which may be considered over-powered, even if everyone benefits from such a change).

However I think a good combination of our proposals would be to have restoring effects be at least 4d6 healing + restoration skill (this way, as the skill is low, you will at least get 5 hit points a second on really bad rolls (instead of a minimum of 2). Additionally, the duration of the kit could be increased by 2 seconds for every 10 points (10 restoration skill would let a kit last 8 seconds, 20 lasts 10 and so on), but this is completely optional. Kits of the same kind should stack to no less than 100. The kits would/should still take time to apply though, and could be interrupted by taking damage.

There should be a caveat though, the HP restoration properties of healing and repair kits respectively should be greatly reduced when used by those who have no/minimal investment in the respective skills. For instance:

A Warforged Artificer has 14 points invested in his repair skill by level 14 (if you put points into a skill from creation, you can only put one point into that skill per level-up). With a +10 random gen boost to repair skill and a +6 INT mod, the artificer would have a repair skill of 30. So he would get 30 + 4d6 hp per second for 6 seconds for a minimum total of 204 HP and a maximum of 324 hp. If the duration were to last 2 seconds per 10 ranks, this warforged's healing from a kit would last 12 seconds (in which case, he'd get a minimum of 408, and a maximum of 648), but as you can see, this would make the kit insanely powerful, perhaps too powerful.

There should be a reduced benefit from trying to use kits without a reasonable investment. I am thinking at least 1d8 per second instead of the full 4d6.

There should be a caveat though, you cannot apply a kit to the same person within a 5 minute span, at least, not without some particularly nasty side-effects (most of them applying to combat).


ALTERNATIVELY: Consider re-implementing the Heal skill (and healer kits) as described in this Neverwinter Wiki article on the Heal skill. The Repair skill could be modeled to match this. For potential detractors - Neverwinter Nights (1) is based on the 3.5 edition rule set, the same as DDO's, so at the very least, modeling would not be unreasonable.

[Tinco]

Casters do their role.

No, and that is one of the roots of the problem. Casters are one-man-armies who, in their current incarnation, are largely better off soloing than grouping. The fact that farming even epic seals and scrolls can easily done by a pretty much ungeared caster with some game knowledge destroys all role playing goals you outline in your essay below. Casters can function easily in every key role DDO has to offer, often better than a 'role specialist' could. The only weaknesses a caster has (traps, ac) are by chance some of the most underdeveloped/neglected features of the game.

Party play for casters in DDO outside of some raids and certain elite quests only exists because people want to party and not because it's necessary, courtesy of nerfed traps, dungeon scaling, overabundance of SP and powerful AoE on the caster's side.

Any please don't argue with 3.5 rules. We've left the scope and range of these rules a long time ago. This is still a MMO that should adhere to some basic design goals of that genre - a rudimentary balance between character types is one of them for a lot of good reasons.

We are at a point where the power of a caster in a specific area defines the standard of the role and not, how it should be, the other way round.

[Chai]

No, and that is one of the roots of the problem. Casters are one-man-armies who, in their current incarnation, are largely better off soloing than grouping. The fact that farming even epic seals and scrolls can easily done by a pretty much ungeared caster with some game knowledge destroys all role playing goals you outline in your essay below. Casters can function easily in every key role DDO has to offer, often better than a 'role specialist' could. The only weaknesses a caster has (traps, ac) are by chance some of the most underdeveloped/neglected features of the game.

I dont see "ungeared casters" soloing epics sans issues. This is a myth.

This is the third time I will put this challenge out. I received no screenshots on the first 2. Surprise surprise.

I want to see a caster solo epic quests that are at their gear level. Screenshot or it didnt happen. You can have gear up to the tier below the quest you are soloing.

Examples of what I want to see:

Solo epic snitch with just shroud and TOD gear on.
Solo epic wiz king with TOD, shroud, and gear from easier epics on.

What is really happening (which doesnt justify saying "ungeared casters" are soloing epics sans issues), is people bring their GEARED casters into EASY epics and solo farm scrolls all they want. Some upper tier players with GEARED casters also solo tougher epics, but they are still overgeared and usually multi-TR.

Your epic torc wearing 3-5 piece epic chrono set clad caster soloing epic snitch doesnt impress me. This is not an "ungeared caster" soloing epics sans issue. This is an OVERGEARED caster soloing epics they already outgrew and no longer need the gear from.

[Tinco]

I can scrollfarm with my ungeared Sorc in:

eADQ, eWizking, Snitch, eChrono, eBoB, ePartycrashers, eVoN1-3 (+ most epic challenges). I can't solo these dungeons start to finish but I never claimed that and for the purpose of scrolls and some seal chests that's not needed at all). The name of this toon is Gleaming on Ghallanda and I didn't even bother upgrading his shroud sp-item to t3 yet (lazy me).

[EDIT] For a SP-longevity-check without Torc and ConcOpp I solo'd eliteDA mostly with SLA's and recon alone with even less gear quite a few times.

I have a fairly geared and versatile melee toon (currently on TR) who can barely survive one mob/group in any of these places.

[Ziindarax]

Guys, can we please keep this discussion focused on offering ideas rather than turning this into an argument about casters?

I think my proposals regarding the heal/repair skills might be among a things that could help even things up a bit. Thoughts anyone? Devs?

[Gremmlynn]

Guess you didn't read the rest of what I wrote.

In a nutshell, I had said that this thread was discussing balance, and in particular whether or not melees needed some love from the Devs (i.e. more self-healing, more self-sufficiency, more special tactics/feats/abilities). I don't think so myself.

Overall, melees do their role. Casters do their role. Trappers do their role. Healers do their role. Etc., etc. The point is, this is supposed to be a roleplaying game. If you want to play a game where every class is basically the same (e.g. in scope of power) then I've suggested waiting for the 4th edition Neverwinter MMO to release later this year. 4th edition grants every class healing surges (self healling) and daily/encounter/at-will powers (equal powers as any class of the same level, basically--your magic missile does the same damage as my cleave, for example). If the idea is for more balance of classes in DDO, then the game should shift from being based on 3.5 rules, to implementing 4th edtion rules. 3.5 wasn't designed to balance the classes, nor were the versions of rules before it.

The problem that comes from granting melees (say like pure barbarians or fighters) easier ways to heal themselves (surges, more amp, better pots, regeneration abilities, etc.) is that it takes away from the ideal of the party system. D&D and DDO is built around the idea of dungeon crawls, quests, and raids, usually in full groups of a cooperative player characters (i.e. parties consisting of melees, trappers, casters, buffer, and healers). Usually, you're going to find in a party of six, elements of that mix. If suddenly, melees don't need a healer (because the Devs "balance" them, granting them self healing abilities), then suddenly healers become the odd-man out. A D&D party is designed to have healers. If they are no longer needed, then who will play them? And, doesn't that make this another game, entirely? So, to stay true to D&D, is to keep the classes true to their roles. Clerics are usually the healers. Fighters are usually the melees. Rogues are usually the trappers. Etc. A player's playstyle can dictate whether they go the route of their character class' normal role, or try something different. But, overall, each class has its designed role. Hence, this is why I said, if you want to "balance" your melee character, why not try multiclassing? Or, shoot, if self-healing is what you want, try a Paladin, or many of the battle-cleric or FvS melee builds out there. However, if you want to play a pure dps fighter or barbarian type, then just accept that playing a class like that has its strengths and weaknesses just like all classes do.

Actually i did read your whole post and it made me wonder if you ever played DDO or just read about it somewhere.

if so, you would know that currently the role of melees is to be a mana sponge that gets denied from parties unless it's one of the rare raids that needs a tank and their isn't an appropriate caster tank available to fill the spot. The role of trappers is to either be a splashed caster or to follow the party around disarming all the traps they ignored for the xp bonus. The role of casters is to CC, insta-kill, ranged DPS, buff and self heal as they are best suited to all those things and the role of healers is to hang out in various taverns offering spirit binding services and selling various healing spells.

That said, as soon as they make every other play style as one dimensional as melee is (and I include those "trappers" in here as clicking two buttons at various predetermined spots for a little extra xp isn't much of a role in itself), I'll agree with you that melee's with effective self healing are not necessary.

[SirValentine]

If suddenly, melees don't need a healer (because the Devs "balance" them, granting them self healing abilities), then suddenly healers become the odd-man out. A D&D party is designed to have healers. If they are no longer needed, then who will play them?

This would be awesome! I'll have lots more fun on my Cleric & FvS lives if melees don't need a healer, and won't have to run Anonymous so much to escape begging blind tells, either.

Not too worried if nobody plays "healers", as there would still be plenty of people, me included, playing Cleric and FvS.

[Ziindarax]

This would be awesome! I'll have lots more fun on my Cleric & FvS lives if melees don't need a healer, and won't have to run Anonymous so much to escape begging blind tells, either.

Not too worried if nobody plays "healers", as there would still be plenty of people, me included, playing Cleric and FvS.

This! Especially if they implement all/most of the changes suggested in this thread (including the suggestion relating to changing the function of healer/repair kits to make them [and their related skills] more useful).

When I played Temple of Elemental Evil (and even the Storm of Zehir expansion for Neverwinter Nights 2), my cleric/favored soul wasn't a nanny-bot for the other characters. In fact, they were often in the front lines with the paladin, fighter, and rogue/ranger, Or they formed as one of the rear guard to keep the wizard safe.