Sorry Spellsingers

[voodoogroves]

This needs its own thread as every comment seems to be buried in another thread about tactics or madstones.


If the House P ship buff changes to a morale bonus, it may stack better with items but it pretty well trumps Spellsingers as it won't stack with their signature class ability.



Please adjust prior to live.

[TheDearLeader]

Ah. Does it? I hadn't even looked...

Well dang. And here I was hoping to get my Spellsinger 1 extra DC on his Enchantment.

Thanks for nothing, Turbine.

[Infant]

Wiki says Arcane Might is a morale bonus. If this is true, U13 kinda nerfs spellsingers because everybody and his brother has access to the ship buff.

Please, please, make either the ship buff OR the song an exceptional bonus!

Infant

Edit: At least it would be nice if one of the devs aknowledged this issue or that this WAI.

[Alexandryte]

The main reason I like spellsingers is the SP cost reduction that stacks with all the others, and the ability to trickle in SP via Spellsong Vigor or a small burst from any of their bard songs.

+to DC is nice but the main difference between ship buffs and a live caster is: They can be reapplied should you die or if they expire while in a quest.

[LeLoric]

It's just enchantment save not a huge issue.

Spellsingers give +1 to all saves, sp cost reduction, sp regen and extra caster level. Although fixing all of these to work with wf and pm's would be more important i would think than worrying about the enchant dc from ship buff.

As a caster I would still like to have a spellsinger around even if I had the ship buff.

[Mellifera]

It seems like every time there's any kind of change, bards get screwed.

[AylinIsAwesome]

It seems like every time there's any kind of change, bards get screwed.

Not really.

The Bard buff is still better.

[TheDearLeader]

Not really.

The Bard buff is still better.

*Stacking* would have been better. It would have been a direct benefit to the Spellsinger. +1 DC in the only school that they have meaningful spells in. All like, five of them.

Instead, this erodes the Trance ability. Does it have other nice things? Yes. Does Spellsinger have other nice things? Yes.

But it'd be like giving a ship buff that gave everyone a free Lay on Hands 1/Rest...except my Paladin. What?

[voodoogroves]

It's just enchantment save not a huge issue.

Spellsingers give +1 to all saves, sp cost reduction, sp regen and extra caster level. Although fixing all of these to work with wf and pm's would be more important i would think than worrying about the enchant dc from ship buff.

As a caster I would still like to have a spellsinger around even if I had the ship buff.

Totally respect you. Totally agree that there are other benefits.

...

Were we in another thread where the subject of a change and stacking bonuses is being hotly debated because two items conflict and would no longer stack?

We're talking about a pretty key / core class ability that will be (essentially) relegated, mostly for the Spellsingers themselves (though I'd still want them to boost my evocation, etc. DCs ... my Pale Master and FVS have NEEDS dangit! BUFF ME).

It's a hit to a class ability that didn't need it, and likely it was an unintended hit.

[RabidKoala]

It seems like every time there's any kind of change, bards get screwed.

You'd think with our high charisma that wouldn't be so.

[maddmatt70]

Yes, but it the ship buff is only for enchantment, but then again that is what a bard typically casts as spells. Spellsinger and Virtuoso both need a fresh look so hopefully that will get addressed this summer.

[LeLoric]

Totally respect you. Totally agree that there are other benefits.

...

Were we in another thread where the subject of a change and stacking bonuses is being hotly debated because two items conflict and would no longer stack?

We're talking about a pretty key / core class ability that will be (essentially) relegated, mostly for the Spellsingers themselves (though I'd still want them to boost my evocation, etc. DCs ... my Pale Master and FVS have NEEDS dangit! BUFF ME).

It's a hit to a class ability that didn't need it, and likely it was an unintended hit.

I understand your point but not all things can stack. In the case of madstone I don't mind the morale bonus as it still results in a net change of 0 for the old buff + rage and the new buff (the double stack part is lost I know but I'm just talkingabout one buff to one buff). My issue with the madstone boots was the poorly thought out penalties.

For the spellsinger it's still a net change of 0 also. They keep the same dc's they had before. Likewise all their buffs still work on anyone else as before with the exception of some may already have the enchantment buff.

Sure they could make it stack with everything and it probably wouldn't be that bad but I don't see where this particular change hurts spellsingers it just doesn't help them nor does it help any caster with a SS in group already.

[voodoogroves]

I understand your point but not all things can stack. In the case of madstone I don't mind the morale bonus as it still results in a net change of 0 for the old buff + rage and the new buff (the double stack part is lost I know but I'm just talkingabout one buff to one buff). My issue with the madstone boots was the poorly thought out penalties.

I was more thinking of the "profane" suggestion and outcry

For the spellsinger it's still a net change of 0 also. They keep the same dc's they had before. Likewise all their buffs still work on anyone else as before with the exception of some may already have the enchantment buff.

Yep, they remain the same and we just gave the rest of the world a +1 boost.

Sure they could make it stack with everything and it probably wouldn't be that bad but I don't see where this particular change hurts spellsingers it just doesn't help them nor does it help any caster with a SS in group already.

Let's swap the skill bonus from Luck on the House P guy to Circumstance. Everyone will be one point better off, except for bards. It's still a gain on the whole, right?

[LeLoric]

I was more thinking of the "profane" suggestion and outcry


Yep, they remain the same and we just gave the rest of the world a +1 boost.


Let's swap the skill bonus from Luck on the House P guy to Circumstance. Everyone will be one point better off, except for bards. It's still a gain on the whole, right?

Going to profane with madstone would not be a net 0 change. It would be a negative change for strength. That's why I would oppose it.

As for giving the rest of the world a plus one boost only if they aren't in party with a SS at which point it's a net 0 boost. It doesn't affect the SS gameplay any as they are always in group with a spellsinger

Once again it's not a negative in any way to bards it just isn't a positive. If the buff was a +1 morale bonus to all dc's and a sp cost reduction then it steps on the bard's toes much more but this does nothing really as any caster still wants that buff from a ss regardless of whether they have the ship buff or not.

I wouldn't be opposed to making it stack with everything but the proposed method doesn't hurt SS in any way really their groups have a net change of 0 (except palemasters can always get that +1 enchantment due to the song bugged for them if they are already in form, This isn't necessarily a bad thing for the SS though.)

[AylinIsAwesome]

*Stacking* would have been better. It would have been a direct benefit to the Spellsinger. +1 DC in the only school that they have meaningful spells in. All like, five of them.

I know it's not the best, but I don't think Bards are being screwed here either. I am in favour of making the buffs stack though.

[azrael4h]

Just make Song buffs their own "Song" type, thus stacking. It's not like Bards are extremely over-powered demi-gods. Or for that matter, that there are a huge number of other buffs which would stack with the Bard songs.

[voodoogroves]

I know I'm kinda Devil's-Advocating a bit here, but I suspect this was not fully thought out before presented to us (similar to the Madstones) - and instead it's just an attempt to hit one goal that has an unintended consequence.

Going to profane with madstone would not be a net 0 change. It would be a negative change for strength. That's why I would oppose it.

For some. Same situation. For my rogue who doesn't have a litany or abishai set (nor likely to get one) it's a net gain.

As for giving the rest of the world a plus one boost only if they aren't in party with a SS at which point it's a net 0 boost. It doesn't affect the SS gameplay any as they are always in group with a spellsinger

Right, we gave everyone something except Spellsingers. To their classic school.

Once again it's not a negative in any way to bards it just isn't a positive. If the buff was a +1 morale bonus to all dc's and a sp cost reduction then it steps on the bard's toes much more but this does nothing really as any caster still wants that buff from a ss regardless of whether they have the ship buff or not.

Agree. It's just a boost to the Spellsinger canonical school that helps anyone who isn't a Spellsinger.

I wouldn't be opposed to making it stack with everything but the proposed method doesn't hurt SS in any way really their groups have a net change of 0 (except palemasters can always get that +1 enchantment due to the song bugged for them if they are already in form, This isn't necessarily a bad thing for the SS though.)

Their groups have a net change of 0 when they take a War Chanter or Virtuoso instead too.



Again, let's change the skill boost on that crew to circumstance. That way it'll stack with luck items and everyone the world gets a boost except the bard's who are using Focusing Chant. Net gain for nearly everyone right? No reason to worry or complain, bard's are essentially unaffected.

[NaturalHazard]

Enchantment is the only real offensive ability that my spell singer has access to.

Lets get a ship buff that gives everyone +4 necro dc's and it doesnt stack with PM undead form and watch the uproar.

Something gets done to bards, and no one cares, just buff me, maybe heal me, ok go sit in the corner.

[Kinerd]

It seems like every time there's any kind of change, bards get screwed.

Not sure if serious...

Sincerely, a player of monks

Just make Song buffs their own "Song" type, thus stacking.

Inspire Competence already has this behavior, with a "competence" bonus that stacks with competence bonuses. Precedent and good will! An unbeatable combination.