LET'S TALK: Encumbrance

[Syllph]

Please remove it. It does nothing except annoy me.

Coin Lord Favor - remove Finishing school. Add Bag of holding. 0 encumbrance.

[lugoman]

It only took 53 posts.

Post by Genasi re madstone boots

Weird, Genasi doesn't show up in the Dev Tracker for me.

[Calebro]

OK, I seem to be in the extreme minority on this one.
I think encumbrance should stay.
It adds a layer of complexity to the lower levels (and sometimes the higher levels) when dealing with enemy spellcasters. That 8 Str halfling Dex/Int assassin/mechanic/artificer/whatever is utterly useless when hit with certain spells and effects, as well he should be!

Removing encumbrance would effectively remove one of the many layers of complexity to this game, and some of us prefer this game because of that complexity.
Removing encumbrance would dumb the game down.
If any of you have ever posted that you don't want the game dumbed down any more, then I don't see how you could possibly want encumbrance removed.

Please do not remove encumbrance rules. A modification to the weight of some items (ie: collectables, etc) may be in order, but encumbrance should remain.

[patang01]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

Lets face it; strong characters can carry around a arsenal of weapons that would make most regiments envy them - strength is about one thing and one thing only. Hitting stuff - hard.

Encumbrance in games was thrown in for 'realism', but carrying 10 weapons on you is no more real than having a artificial amount defining carrying limits.

People who want to roleplay can do so - just imagine being able one bag only and 2 weapons and there's your reality.

I'm all for letting it go; it fills absolutely no function other than limiting some builds.

[Melcena]

Inventory slots are enough limitation already.
I think it has some sort of flavor for monks and low str builds. They should have some negative effect when hit by a str damaging spell. Or just make those str damaging spell dmg some CON instead. IDC.

Spell components add to the game too IMHO. There's a Feat for that if you think it bothers you too much. The only thing we're really really missing is spell components bag. Seriously. ASAP.

Yay eschew material. Most people dont like it, but I believe that it is here precisely to combat the effects of encumbrance.

Now, on a side note, I think that encumberance is very vital to this game, in all honesty. This mechanic dates back to the old days of pen and paper, and I would be sad to see it go. I think that mechanics need to stay the same. It might actually teach some people some very important lessons, such as why its a bad thing to carry a extremely large amount of gear. To help prove my point, a short narrative has been arranged.

Two halforcs, Bob the Wizard and Rob the Cleric, decided to go assualt a Hobgoblin Village. Bob currently possesses eschew material, allowing him to lighten his load, and as such, only goes into the fray with 45 pounds of deadweight. Rob the Cleric, meanwhile, decides to go into the fray with over 200 major mnemonic enhancers, 200 scrolls of heal, thousands of spell components, his full plate, large steel shield, and bastard sword. Knowing he is carrying quite a bit, Bob bestows him with the strength of a bull. However, Rob still is moving quite a bit slower under his immensely heavy burden.

Shortly after breaking into the village, several Hobgoblin shamans, behind their protective screen of warriors, use their magic to steal away Rob's strength. He collapses under the now titanic weight of his gear and cannot even move to throw some of it off. The hobgoblin warriors descend with glee on their now helpless victim and promptly hack him to pieces. Bob. knowing his cause is doomed, launches a fireball and immolates several of the warriors before the survivors turn and do the same to him.

The End.

To illustrate the point, encumbrance teaches responsibility. If you want to walk into battle with a "small house on your back", then you better be prepared to die because of it.

[Enoach]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

I would mind - If you take it away, those sneaky rogues and pajama monks will be all evasive, even when they are carrying out hordes of Loot...

Those characters that have low strength won't feel the effects of being weakened when they are carrying a moderate load.

I realize this is just a game, but for me part of the fun was in managing what I will take with me so that I don't exceed what I can carry.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Weird, Genasi doesn't show up in the Dev Tracker for me.

Lamannia has a different Dev Tracker than the regular Dev Tracker. Check the list of subforums and Lamannia Dev Tracker is one of the options.

[WruntJunior]

Most melees could comfortably cart around a bus...even casters could lift a car by the time they're well-geared. I don't see encumbrance going away being much of a hindrance to anyone, and it would actually free a few +6 str slots on casters. YAY!

[MadFloyd]

Great.

Now since you are the head of the team I would like an answer to a simple question?

Why are you having numerous melee focused nerfs coming into the game with U13 when you stated that you wanted to buff melee considerably with the enhancement rework to boost their effectiveness compared to casters?

Simple. We aren't.

[Devonian]

Simple. We aren't.

Would you like to expand on that any? If a large number of people say that your acts are to a pattern of behaviour running one way, and you say that your actual goals are running another it may be time to share with us more of yore reasoning on the proposed changes?

I'd Much rather you say "Here is what we are doing, here is why, here is what we want the change to achieve" than the current "Here is what we are doing."

[Cauthey]

Would you like to expand on that any? If a large number of people say that your acts are to a pattern of behaviour running one way, and you say that your actual goals are running another it may be time to share with us more of yore reasoning on the proposed changes?

I'd Much rather you say "Here is what we are doing, here is why, here is what we want the change to achieve" than the current "Here is what we are doing."

Dude, they did that. Did you not see Genasi's post?

Relax! They are listening! They are engaged! Don't let our collective nerd rage chase them off!

[omen33]

Like spell components it adds flavor to the game.

You're running around on a high dex, low str halfling being dodgy and quick, then bam you get hit by symbol of weakness. Suddenly your ac drops, you need to alter your tactics

Just one example where it makes the game a little more 'complex' (in a good way)

What isn't good about it is useless stuff weighing you down. Gems, collectibles, ingredients, components etc. shouldn't affect your character's encumbrance

This ^

But most forum users dont care if it doesnt increase DPS.

[Cleanincubus]

Would you like to expand on that any? If a large number of people say that your acts are to a pattern of behaviour running one way, and you say that your actual goals are running another it may be time to share with us more of yore reasoning on the proposed changes?

I'd Much rather you say "Here is what we are doing, here is why, here is what we want the change to achieve" than the current "Here is what we are doing."

+1 If you Devs aren't going to actively engage in these threads, they are mostly 1 sided conversations. It's turned into, "let's have the players talk about a specific topic". That's something the community can do on their own, and the community already does that. The suggestion forum is already filled with topics. I hate to say it, but maybe if the Devs took the time to actually read all of the threads in that subforum, there would be no need for threads like these in the first place. That, or actually responding to these threads with some detail. With so many people responding to these threads in detail, it would feel more like an actual discussion if the Devs responded in a similar manner.

[rdasca]

It needs to stay, plain and simple.

The only real change should be the bags, they should have set weights based on their size, that's it. Simple idea, simple fix to the real problem (too much stuff to put in bags in the first place) as for coding it well I will let you the devs decide if it is simple or not.

[dkyle]

Simple. We aren't.

Madstone boots aside:

Monks and unarmed characters will no longer proc dual wield or double strike attacks when using Trip, Sunder, Stunning Blow, or other special attacks, making them consistent with other classes. Special "monk-only" abilities are unaffected by this change.

Sure, it's bringing "consistency", but it's a wider application of a needless nerf that happened in a previous update. Tactics were one of the few reasons to bother with TWF after U5. And the off-hand proc nerf was on top of the new animations for tactics that severely hurt melee tactics overall.

Monsters with rogue levels and the Sneak Attack ability now have the ability to reduce fortification to personal attacks to some degree. For example, a CR 10 bugbear assassin with 4 Sneak Attack dice will now be able to critically-hit someone with heavy fortification approximately 10% of the time. That same bugbear will be unable to critically hit a character with 110% fortification.

Fortification bypass inherently hurts melee more than casters (or ranged). Especially since the most overpowered casters (WF Sorcs and PMs) have the fortification to spare. I guess this is technically a slight buff for WF melee, in comparison to other melee, but for melee as a whole, it's a disadvantage.

[DrawingGuy]

I'm of mixed opinion in this regard for encumberance. Flavor wise I like it. However game mechanic wise it punishes ONLY ranged-based characters, which are already gimp to begin with. Melee will have the strength to be fine, casters could give a **** about dex and a min of moving slow is just a minor annoyance (and can likely fix it)... the rangers lose their to-hit and thus become worthless.

So with it being a factor that is already marginalized and only hurts those that need the most help, I say zap it.

[Cyr]

Simple. We aren't.

Then you must have a different take on the following changes made in U13 then me.

• Fort change from rogue mobs. Consider the following questions (just for your own thought process no need to answer me of course)...Do melee need you to be near a mob to attack or do casters? Who then is more likely to take more hits per dungeon? Now what PrE grants a huge fort increase and is it a melee or caster class? Now are warforged who gain a fort bonus fairly common as casters or are they better as melee?
• Madstone boots changes. Following questions again...Did the item detailed buff casters before in any meaningful way that was usuable and would it now? Do casters use SF pots more then melee? Does taking away power from an item that melee primarly used before weaken melee (clearly things like no double stacking, typed bonus, shaken, stat penalties, will save penalty all are nerfs that effect melee when the item possessed none of this to begin with)?
• Deadly Weapons change. Following questions again...Is the effect now weaker in U13 then in U12? Is the proposed version better then the U13 version weaker then the U12 version? Is something being worse then before mean it is worse then before?

I really am completely failing to understand why if melee needs a buff compared to casters why we are not seeing things which hit casters more then melee if it hits both system wise or why we are not seeing straight out melee buffs. The above I can not read in any other way then a competitve weakening of melee compared to casters.

Dude, you are going the wrong way on the highway. You are the one who said which direction you wanted to head. Did I misunderstand you? Did you really mean that you thought melee was too powerful?

[Xiadais]

My feeling is that encumbrance (and carrying weight in general) just unnecessarily adds to lag from making more numbers for the servers to crunch.

However, if encumbrance was removed, spells (and other abilities) like Ray of Enfeeblement should still do something other than making you hit lower.

[Xiadais]

Then you must have a different take on the following changes made in U13 then me.

• Fort change from rogue mobs. Consider the following questions (just for your own thought process no need to answer me of course)...Do melee need you to be near a mob to attack or do casters? Who then is more likely to take more hits per dungeon? Now what PrE grants a huge fort increase and is it a melee or caster class? Now are warforged who gain a fort bonus fairly common as casters or are they better as melee?
• Madstone boots changes. Following questions again...Did the item detailed buff casters before in any meaningful way that was usuable and would it now? Do casters use SF pots more then melee? Does taking away power from an item that melee primarly used before weaken melee (clearly things like no double stacking, typed bonus, shaken, stat penalties, will save penalty all are nerfs that effect melee when the item possessed none of this to begin with)?
• Deadly Weapons change. Following questions again...Is the effect now weaker in U13 then in U12? Is the proposed version better then the U13 version weaker then the U12 version? Is something being worse then before mean it is worse then before?

I really am completely failing to understand why if melee needs a buff compared to casters why we are not seeing things which hit casters more then melee if it hits both system wise or why we are not seeing straight out melee buffs. The above I can not read in any other way then a competitve weakening of melee compared to casters.

Dude, you are going the wrong way on the highway. You are the one who said which direction you wanted to head. Did I misunderstand you? Did you really mean that you thought melee was too powerful?

His "simple, we aren't" must have been in reference to boosting melees with the enhancement reworking!!! /omgIFiguredItOutI'mAGenius

[Targonis]

Encumbrance: what value does it really bring to DDO?

How many of you would mind if this just sort of 'went away'?

The problem with the removal of encumbrance would be that there IS the whole idea that overloaded characters that have a ton of stuff they take with them SHOULD burden them. Ray of Enfeeblement and such have uses outside of just reducing the damage output of your enemies, it also means they MAY be slowed down so they can't move as fast(which Turbine may not have implemented for the mobs in the game).

The idea of monks being centered, and some feats only working if the player is lightly encumbered also would just go away if encumbrance were removed from the game. If anything, what would be better would be something that even adds to the complexity of this system. If you have a bunch of weapons, suits of armor, and other stuff, shouldn't the BULK of all that stuff make moving a bit more difficult? Adding things like bags of holding, or upgrades to our inventory space to reduce the bulk(bag of holding for example) would do more than just reduce the weight, but would also address that issue.

So, finding BAGS would be about helping with our storage and the bulk aspect. So, we start the game with regular inventory space, 3 bags worth. Buying magic bags would add to our inventory space, but would leave us with the original 3 bags that don't reduce the weight. Players could then upgrade/replace those with magic bags.

For things like spell components, pouches that CAN go in bags might be available, and some of those might also have a weight reducing effect, things like scroll cases should also be added, and quivers might have a weight reducing property. Add the "bulk removal" aspect to some of these, and people have items that really have VALUE, beyond just being about inventory space.

What many people HATE about encumbrance is when they can't hold enough of the items they want to have with them, and you also run into problems with all of the collectables in the game. Crafting components, or items that various NPCs want you to collect may in theory be TINY, yet they take up as much room as armor, and if you don't think to drop off all those dragonshard fragments in the bank, it is easy to become overloaded. All of this can be put together to satisfy just about everyone, without needing to change one of the core concepts of fantasy roleplaying, the limit to what you can hold at once.

As a final note, try picking up 15 beach balls that are fully inflated. It would be a big challenge, not because of the weight, but because of the amount of space involved. Most games fail at this basic idea where all items take up the same amount of space, from a pebble to a boulder, when magical or even scientific methods could be used to address letting players hold items. If you are looking at the possibility to eliminate encumbrance, why not go all the way and address this issue. Give us bags that actually hold items, and make it so we have just so much space on the body of our characters that we need to make ALL the slots be magic bags that hold this or that.