Is there more to Carnifex???

[Havok.cry]

My point isnt that Shade is wrong.

My point is this perma noob is just repeating some things Shade commonly says but has no understanding of the actual game.

That was kinda my point too.... Hes not even quoting shade right.

[Havok.cry]

let's see (a very unfair comparison between a wizard with twinked gear/plat, with a high level guild and the knowledge and the will to raise his AB and a barbarian with starter gear and plat, trying to ruin his AB in every way possible)


Wizard lvl 3:

BAB: +1
12 str (starting): +1
+4/+6 str (bull's/ring from madness): +2/+3
+2 str (ship shrine): +1
+2 str (rage pot): +1 (not sure about ML on this one)
ship kobold: +1
aid/bless pot: +1
weapon: +1/+2 (nightblade)
archivist/goggles of insight: 0/+1
archivist/anger's set: 0/+2
master's touch (denying the -4 penalty from using martial weapon): 0
standing still while attacking: 0

total AB: 9/14 (not counting AB when hitting helpless monsters and such)

Barbarian lv3:
BAB: +3
18 str (starting): +4
+1 str (anger's): 0
weapon: +1
googles of insight: +1
anger's set: +2
moving while attacking: -4 (wasd madskillz)
PA: -5 (extremely useful at this level)
Barbarian PA: -1 (even more useful)

Total AB: mmm, nevermind (not the worst case scenario, imagine he also selected troubleshooter set...)

The above breakdown is an exaggeration of course, i'm not implying that's your real AB in mmm haverdasher

Your wizard could also have heroism pots, training dummy, and haste pots, probably more too.

Your barb can only get -3 from PA, cause it is capped by your BAB, you could also use a korthos weapon for another drop... And ofcourse you could go nekid ie no angers set, no goggles.

[Varashad]

It is the best THF weapon through lvl 4-9. Nothing else even comes close.

After that, the Sword of Shadows is completely superior all the way through lvl 10-19.

At lvl 12, use greensteel as a DR breaker. Use greensteel as a skeleton and undead basher. Use greensteel as your thrower. But the Sword of Shadows remains your main weapon until 20.

Anyone who says otherwise is completely wrong.

I would like to see the math that shows a Sword of Shadows out damaging a Lit II, or even a +3 to +5 Flaming Burst of Pure Good + Icy Burst greatsword. I believe it has the potential, but I don't think it's as good as you're making out.

[jeremyt]

I would like to see the math that shows a Sword of Shadows out damaging a Lit II, or even a +3 to +5 Flaming Burst of Pure Good + Icy Burst greatsword. I believe it has the potential, but I don't think it's as good as you're making out.

It depends on the toon, but even when calculating DPS, when leveling lit2 lightning strike procs are generally overkill, made worse if they are not procing on the very first hit on the monster (hence effective DPS is actually much lower than calculated DPS) a SoS in hands of a toon with imp crit slashing gets very little overkill and surprisingly fast kills due to consistent crits, even if the DPS calcs are lower.

[HungarianRhapsody]

It depends on the toon, but even when calculating DPS, when leveling lit2 lightning strike procs are generally overkill, made worse if they are not procing on the very first hit on the monster (hence effective DPS is actually much lower than calculated DPS) a SoS in hands of a toon with imp crit slashing gets very little overkill and surprisingly fast kills due to consistent crits, even if the DPS calcs are lower.

And by level 10 or 12, the only people who will still be swinging melee weapons very often are going to be actual melee builds, not 8 Str Wizards who just need to knock off the last few HP from an enemy. That means that you can actually count on serious bonuses to damage in addition to the base damage of the weapon itself.

[Havok.cry]

And by level 10 or 12, the only people who will still be swinging melee weapons very often are going to be actual melee builds, not 8 Str Wizards who just need to knock off the last few HP from an enemy. That means that you can actually count on serious bonuses to damage in addition to the base damage of the weapon itself.

Melees will only be swinging melee weapons if they solo... Get any caster at all and the melees are more useless than hordo, at least he writes good guides while he pikes.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Melees will only be swinging melee weapons if they solo... Get any caster at all and the melees are more useless than hordo, at least he writes good guides while he pikes.

That's absolutely not true. Sometimes the casters will go afk to make a sammich or something.

[SirValentine]

3) What do you suggest that a Cleric/FvS/Wizard/Sorcerer do after they run out of spell points? Should they just stand around picking their nose instead of continuing to slaughter the enemy?

If you wait until AFTER you're out of SP, you're doing it wrong. Kill them quick enough in the first place, and you won't even reach that point. Melee FTW on everyone (except Arty, maybe?) up to at least level 6 or so. (At level 7, my Wiz switched to Firewall+Web; my divines usually keep melee going up until Blade Barrier at level 11.)

[SirValentine]

You're a cleric. Why are you meleeing? You should be grouping with other people and casting heals. Use your team members to complete quests. This is an MMO after all. Even on my Bard-in-progress I cave in and join groups mostly because it's too difficult to solo at that stage.

Really? Another Cleric-hater who wants us to shut up, hjeal, and get to the back of the bus?

It's NOT too difficult for a Cleric to solo almost everything in the game, from Korthos up to Elite Amrath and Epic quests.

I group with others on my divine to get faster completions, but even then, I'm killing stuff, with either melee or spells, as appropriate.

[HungarianRhapsody]

If you wait until AFTER you're out of SP, you're doing it wrong. Kill them quick enough in the first place, and you won't even reach that point. Melee FTW on everyone (except Arty, maybe?) up to at least level 6 or so. (At level 7, my Wiz switched to Firewall+Web; my divines usually keep melee going up until Blade Barrier at level 11.)

That was actually kind of my point. If you use melee attacks in appropriate situations, you can save a tremendous number of spell points at lower levels to the point where you never run out of spell points between shrines. If you don't use melee attacks in appropriate situations, conserving spell points at lower levels becomes significantly harder.

[SirValentine]

Please explain to me how your 12 STR wizard is going to hit anything in elite? I could barely hit scorpions in elite Haverdash as a lvl 3 Barbarian. I rest my case.

Post your build & gear, and we might be able to help you out. The arcanes and divines are NOT having trouble hitting there, so if your max-Str Barb IS, something is wrong with your build or gear or play.

[SirValentine]

And the post never said his Wizard was out of spell points. He said he regularly runs around at 12 STR with a greataxe in his hands, disregarding the penalty for wielding a Martial weapon

There's no penalty. It's called "Master's Touch". It even comes on scrolls.

Sorry, but poor Wizard. Every good caster at that level can recognize that dual wielding potency and spell clicky weapons gives them MUCH more contribution in DPS than a melee weapon can.

Uh...have you played a caster? No good caster ever needs to wander around with a spell clicky weapon in their hand. IT'S A CLICKY! You swap it in, click it, and swap it back out.

So if I can't hit them, your Wizard *definitely* can't. BAB is lower. Has no access to Barbarian Rage. Wields that Martial Greataxe with a -4 penalty. Yeah nice imaginary warrior-wizard...

Where is this imaginary -4 penalty coming from? And, as much as you might not like it, that Wizard IS hitting, consistently.

[Sarisa]

At low levels, where SP totals are small, melee on a caster is definitely an effective way to get through the quests.

My first arcane life (18 WIZ/2 ROG), was before the u9 spell change. Damage spells before Firewall were INCREDIBLY inefficient. You could burn through spells so fast that it was not worth nuking at all unless you were blasting a boss. Practically every caster at that point either leveled as a buff bot, or picked up a melee weapon, buffed up, and swung away. I never managed to get a Carnifex (the best low level weapon for just about anyone due to the massive crit range), but a Nicked Greatsword at level 2 and an Antique Greataxe at level 4 worked almost as well.

Between Master's Touch, Bull's Strength (spell or potion), and when you can afford them, Heroism potions, you will NOT have any trouble hitting practically anything in the harbour or market.

My second arcane life (20 Sorc - Air) was post the u9 spell change. I had the pre-nerfed Epic Brimstone Verge with the ML:3 requirement, and carried the cheaper-to-cast Electric Loop. Those two made leveling a breeze, but I still carried Master's Touch and picked up a big two-hander to mop up whatever lived through that. Again, had no trouble hitting.

That character is now on a divine life (17 CLR/3 MNK), and handwraps and Stunning Fist just trump everything. Melee is even more important on a divine life because of the poor spell damage at low levels. If I were pure Cleric, I'd either pull out a good Longsword and shield, or yet again, a big two hander, Soundburst groups, Command Ogres, and smash face. The -4 penalty with the big two hander isn't that horrible at low levels, when you can buff up and mitigate it a bit.

At level 7, ANY class can use a Souleater, which is an unbound base item. This is one of the most effective low-mid level weapons, so it's excellent for a divine to use between Holy Smites and Soundbursts. By then, arcanes have more SP and better AoE's, and can switch over to a more casting style.

That was actually kind of my point. If you use melee attacks in appropriate situations, you can save a tremendous number of spell points at lower levels to the point where you never run out of spell points between shrines. If you don't use melee attacks in appropriate situations, conserving spell points at lower levels becomes significantly harder.

Agree. On my first life Cleric, buying a level 10 Paralyzing weapon was the best investment I ever made. Hitting things that remained standing after the Greater Command with the Paralyzer saved an incredible amount of SP. Preventing damage is better than healing damage, and preventing damage while contributing a little bit of damage is even better.

There's no penalty. It's called "Master's Touch". It even comes on scrolls.

Just note that Master's Touch cannot be cast from scrolls onto a two-hander. The good thing is there are few viable level 1 spells, so there is no harm in keeping Master's Touch loaded on a Wizard or Sorc.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Really? Another Cleric-hater who wants us to shut up, hjeal, and get to the back of the bus?

It's NOT too difficult for a Cleric to solo almost everything in the game, from Korthos up to Elite Amrath and Epic quests.

I group with others on my divine to get faster completions, but even then, I'm killing stuff, with either melee or spells, as appropriate.

This one I feel I need to clarify here since you're still getting the wrong idea.

I am not now nor have I ever been a cleric-hater. I wasn't trying to say any such thing and have no idea where you keep coming up with it. On the contrary: Clerics make great energizer batteries for my barbarian and I love it when they get behind me!

When you're at the low levels and you're starting your first healer class, you really DO need to group up with others and start learning how to heal them. Because I guarantee you that if you don't learn how to heal at this stage of the game and you start wandering off from the group and acting like a battle-cleric or battle-FvS in mid level quests, you'll quickly find yourself on server blacklists. They will expect you to heal them successfully in both quests and raids, and it's essential that you get that skill down immediately.

Yes, if you're a TR or an alt or a prodigy that can solo at that level, by all means go ahead. Nobody's stopping you.

But my advice was aimed towards F2P newbies coming from where I started. That means there were no shipbuffs, no guild runs, no metaknowledge, no Heroism pots, no Haste pots, no Rage pots, no twink gear, no alts, and no rich friends. It was just you and your starter gear with a couple thousand plat and maybe a gaming buddy or two. And I guarantee you, it's not anywhere near as easy as you blow it up to be.

A lot of high-level players have forgotten their origins and are totally spoiled by the buffs and gear they have today. They don't seem to get that all that metaknowledge and all those luxuries didn't exist at one point.

[SirValentine]

I am not now nor have I ever been a cleric-hater. I wasn't trying to say any such thing and have no idea where you keep coming up with it.

Where? Pretty simple, since you show the same shut-up-and-hjeal-me nonsense attitude right here:

On the contrary: Clerics make great energizer batteries for my
barbarian and I love it when they get behind me!

A Cleric isn't your battery, and doesn't need to get behind you. Why would you say such insulting things unless you hate real Clerics?

Perhaps you're looking for that other class, "Healer". Unfortunately, it's not in DDO, it's in some other MMO.

[SirValentine]

Just note that Master's Touch cannot be cast from scrolls onto a two-hander. The good thing is there are few viable level 1 spells, so there is no harm in keeping Master's Touch loaded on a Wizard or Sorc.

Sure enough. Also, on a non-Wiz/Sorc/Bard, keep a stack of scrolls, pass a few to any Wiz/Sorc/Bard in party at the beginning of the quest and say, "Cast this on me, please."

[Wraith_Sarevok]

BTW:

And yeah, I do friend and follow Shade's advice mostly because... he's always right. He might make a mistake or two as do I, as does anyone, but for the most part he knows the game better than anyone since he's been here since beta. No, I don't just blindly follow his advice. I have my own agenda and personality. Some of his suggestions I ignore mainly because they don't fit into my casual time schedule (e.g. crafting a LS greataxe) or my style of play (e.g. ignoring ship buffs). I am much more concerned with finishing and designing my barbarian to deal the MAX maintainable DPS against any boss in the game while still being a great tank for all content, so naturally our barbarians will end up with slightly different builds and gear. Doesn't make either of us any less of a good player. The only thing I may regret is that he's been here longer and has much more experience with DDO so I am forced to keep learning from him. But hey, that's life! I can only hope to one day surpass him.

[yawumpus]

1. If you are comparing a wizard to a lvl3 barbarian, why aren't you assuming a lvl 3 wizzy? Wizzy 3 is using that axe on webbed mobs, has bull's strength and a few other buffs (and can get at least bull's as a broke first lifer, assuming someone pointed out that he should be using an axe). It doesn't take a whole lot of BAB to hit something webbed (you don't have to move and it won't kill you when you miss).

2. Carnifex gives 45% more damage than a typical +2 greataxe. With melee strength and power attack, it is a no-brainer. For an 8 str wiz it likely requires twink gear that is more rare than a frosted holy axe of twinkiness to beat said twinky axe.

3. Nannybots are pikers. Just because you can't oneshot your enemies with spells doesn't mean you are stuck [only] healing. While a cleric + barbarian dps might not seem much more than a barbarian dps, it requires one heck of a grind for the barbarian to increase his output to match the cleric + barbarian. Just swing that mace (better yet, use command where appropriate).

[Viisari]

And yeah, I do friend and follow Shade's advice mostly because... he's always right.

Shade is no doubt an excellent player.

BUT

He's extremely biased towards certain classes, playstyles and viewpoints which leads to him spouting nonsense and just silly things rather often.

So no, he's not always right.

but for the most part he knows the game better than anyone since he's been here since beta.

Firstly, he's not the only who has been here for a long time.

And secondly, the fact that someone has been here since beta means very little. Some of the best and most knowledgeable players I've encountered in DDO have only played for 2-3 years.

I also find your worship of "OMG MAX DPS" quite amusing. Taking a damage or two away from that gives lots of classes a *huge* amount of versality. And versality is the king.

Finally, just yesterday I did Haverdasher on elite, we were a level 3 wizard and a level 3 sorc. With melee weapons. Funnily enough, we had zero to hit problems and zero problems in general. Both of us only had buffs as our spells, so zero damage spells.

Maybe you should reroll your barb if you're having trouble there?

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Finally, just yesterday I did Haverdasher on elite, we were a level 3 wizard and a level 3 sorc. With melee weapons. Funnily enough, we had zero to hit problems and zero problems in general. Both of us only had buffs as our spells, so zero damage spells.

You know I think I finally DO realize what was wrong with my comparison. It took me a while and I just had to sit down and remember that they changed this a while back:

* Armor Class values were adjusted down for a number of older monsters whose values were outside of the current standard range. This includes certain vampire bosses, the troll boss of the Tharashk Arena quest, various armored skeletons, various scorpions, and several more.

So at the time that I was killing these scorpions with my veteran status barbarian, their AC values were far higher than what players are facing now. It's just been a while since I've done 100 point favor runs with veteran barbarians, so I forgot that the values were adjusted down.

Doesn't mean that there aren't elite mobs with very high AC values out there, but most of them have probably gone.