Deadly Weapon change

[MrkGrismer]

I gotta agree with Shade on this one. If the only problem is with two weapons then it isn't a problem, those two weapons are a pain to get and are supposed to be tops anyway, and it isn't like it changes them into 'one-hit/one-kill' weapons.

Like that the scrolls drop now, even if my arti already has the spell.

[orakio]

snipped, good points:

P.S. bard songs are a lot more balanced... a twf khopesh wielder gets 10 * 1.8 * 1.35 = 24.3 damage per swing while a THF ESOS user gets 10 * 1.375 * 1.55 = 21.3 ( so only a ~13% differnce, not the 200-600% that deadly weapons gives)

EDIT: forgot to add barb crit multiplier

Yeah there are bigger advantages when you start taking into account specific PrE's and crit multipliers and things like that. I didn't want to address it due to the number of different variables involved, on a crit immune mob for example that damage goes right back to what i stated. On a Paladin or rogue they get built in bonuses that are vastly superior for TWF. Things like that create a bias either way in the argument so I wanted to try and keep it simple.

I agree that unarmed and ranged was hurt because deadly weapons didn't affect it, that could have been fixed though without changing the ability as badly as they did. I also used epic chaosblade as an example only because it was already mentioned in the thread.

MrkGrimser pointed it out, if it is only a problem with a couple weapons and not all of TWF vs. THF then it sounds more like the problem isn't the spell but the weapons. The math shows that with both deadly weapons and bard songs TWF and THF see fairly similar numbers, excepting weapons like ESoS.

[FooWonk]

This change will likely make more sense as all the other changes to game mechanics are revealed.

The Devs see the big picture, we only see small sections of it now.

This change relegates Deadly Weapons to raids where the boss and/or majority of the trash is immune to all 4 elemental damages.

No new items will change this.
No new mechanics will change this.
No new class will change this.

It's a simple case of 4.5 damage per swing isn't enough better than 3.5 damage per swing to make it worth the extra 20 SP or the 6th level spell slot.

----

Also, for all those that note that the release notes say it is a temporary change. Temporary can be a very, very long time when you only have finite developer resources to make changes.

Let's put this in perspective...you have resources to do 3 things in this list...now choose:
° borked handwraps
° lag bombs
° fix some spells: tensor's transformation, deadly weapons, teleport (add house c)
° buff useless feats: slicing blow, power critical, eschew materials,
° new content
° new classes
° new races

[Crann]

Also, for all those that note that the release notes say it is a temporary change. Temporary can be a very, very long time when you only have finite developer resources to make changes.

It is a temporary change on a test server....sometimes its your own hands in front of your eyes that prevent you from seeing the whole picture

U13 is the tip of the proverbial iceberg....the changes that the expansion pack will bring to the game will make U13 look like an icecube.

On the topic of finite reasources.....theirs aren't as finite as they once may have been.

I'm pretty sure this temporary change....and others.....all fit into a larger plan.....to soon for DOOOooooOOOOMs

[Nibor]

It's a temporary change because the ultimate version is based on part of an overall change to weapon dice that they're already working on. So the change "is coming" because it's part of an overhaul they're already committed to. Getting a final version of this spell is completely different from "fixing handwraps", for example.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Oh well: Artificers, The next hundred, or thousand times I decline you from my grps/raids for no longer being a worthwhile class in my mind: Blame Turbine.

Kinda odd this is from the same person who wrote this...

Artificers - You are the ultimate raid healers for most raids. Exploit this utility.

How:
Very Easily:
1. Get scroll mastery IV.
2. Carry heal scrolls (Too poor, ask your party, they will gladly chip in the cost, any decent veteran player can afford unlimited scrolls.)
3. Win at DDO.

[Astraghal]

But . . . this is a third huge nerf to melees in this update.

Seriously? Do the devs even play this game?

Didn't melee also get their combat DC's nerfed in u9 or thereabouts, with all enemy saves being raised by +5?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Kinda odd this is from the same person who wrote this...

Guess the only part of "the ultimate raid healers" Shade cared about was that they were his own personal "ultimate raid barbarian buffer."

[MaxwellEdison]

Suggestions for a reworked deadly weapons infusion.

10% Alchemical fortification bypass (stacks with everything but itself)

AND

1d10 untyped damage OR 2d6 bleed damage.

I think this makes it a better option than much cheaper/lower level elemental weapons infusion yet keeps it from becoming too overpowered.

Edit: Started a thread about this on Suggestions and Ideas to hopefully encourage a more workable solution than the discussion on the current implementation in this thread.

[Niv-mizzet]

Eventually you won't need us at all and will just exclude us from all your groups.

Eventually? I dunno where you've been lately, but I see that NOW sir. =p

[DeafeningWhisper]

But . . . this is a third huge nerf to melees in this update.

Seriously? Do the devs even play this game?

Yes, on WF sorcs and PMs.

P.S. Interesting enough the fact Deadly didn't stack with PBS or worked on wraps means it's actually useful now on the 2 type of toons that didn't use it before: ranged and unarmed.

[Darkrok]

First of all, Shade is way off-base. As some other posters have mentioned, Deadly was FAR better than a bard song on an eSoS. Maybe if you've got a bard or paladin swinging the eSoS the people pointing out that bard songs give to-hit bonuses would have a point but I don't know many raging Barbarians that are sweating their to-hit. And the bard songs add a max of +9 damage while deadly was an average of +17.5. Simply no comparison. If the dev's did not intend Deadly weapons to be over twice as powerful as the average bard's song then the spell was broken. And I think it's safe to say that the dev's did not intend Deadly weapons to be over twice as powerful as the average bard's song.

As for what they should do I agree that 1d8 force is a bit light (even acknowledging this as a temporary fix). I like many of the suggestions mentioned (1d10 untyped, 2d6 bleed, fort bypass thrown in, simply a bit more force damage, etc) to make it a bit better. I also would love it if it added a proc that dealt a ton of untyped damage. Something like a disintegrate proc that averaged out to 6-7 damage a swing or so but gave you big damage spikes. In other words, something more 'deadly'. That said, even at 1d8 force damage it would be my go-to buff. Not having to juggle which element to buff each weapon with, swapping the buff mid-quest, etc would be very helpful. Having it work on ranged using PBS and Monks is an added bonus.

As for Shade's groups not needing Arti's anymore...mkay. As others have mentioned and Shade correctly pointed out, many of these hardest raids are extremely resource intensive and require single-target healing that is powerful and sustainable. No class does that better than arti's. I'd be sad too if they took my favorite weapon and made it deal 13.5 less damage a swing (more than that actually since the base damage from deadly got multiplied on crits - force damage will not). But sometimes you have to realize that broken things need fixed even if they benefit you personally.

Finally, I'm not disputing that melee's need buffs, not nerfs. But this simply needed fixed. It was a spell that was broken in its current implementation. Now they just need to roll back the real issue for melee's in this patch (madstone boots - a change that would GREATLY benefit me personally but that I still don't want to see happen) and find some other buffs to throw the way of melee's to bring them up closer to casters.

[Eladiun]

It was crazy OP. Now, it's seems redundant and hardly worth the spell slot. Something in-between would make more sense.

[Cetus]

First of all, Shade is way off-base. As some other posters have mentioned, Deadly was FAR better than a bard song on an eSoS. Maybe if you've got a bard or paladin swinging the eSoS the people pointing out that bard songs give to-hit bonuses would have a point but I don't know many raging Barbarians that are sweating their to-hit. And the bard songs add a max of +9 damage while deadly was an average of +17.5. Simply no comparison. If the dev's did not intend Deadly weapons to be over twice as powerful as the average bard's song then the spell was broken. And I think it's safe to say that the dev's did not intend Deadly weapons to be over twice as powerful as the average bard's song.

As for what they should do I agree that 1d8 force is a bit light (even acknowledging this as a temporary fix). I like many of the suggestions mentioned (1d10 untyped, 2d6 bleed, fort bypass thrown in, simply a bit more force damage, etc) to make it a bit better. I also would love it if it added a proc that dealt a ton of untyped damage. Something like a disintegrate proc that averaged out to 6-7 damage a swing or so but gave you big damage spikes. In other words, something more 'deadly'. That said, even at 1d8 force damage it would be my go-to buff. Not having to juggle which element to buff each weapon with, swapping the buff mid-quest, etc would be very helpful. Having it work on ranged using PBS and Monks is an added bonus.

As for Shade's groups not needing Arti's anymore...mkay. As others have mentioned and Shade correctly pointed out, many of these hardest raids are extremely resource intensive and require single-target healing that is powerful and sustainable. No class does that better than arti's. I'd be sad too if they took my favorite weapon and made it deal 13.5 less damage a swing (more than that actually since the base damage from deadly got multiplied on crits - force damage will not). But sometimes you have to realize that broken things need fixed even if they benefit you personally.

Finally, I'm not disputing that melee's need buffs, not nerfs. But this simply needed fixed. It was a spell that was broken in its current implementation. Now they just need to roll back the real issue for melee's in this patch (madstone boots - a change that would GREATLY benefit me personally but that I still don't want to see happen) and find some other buffs to throw the way of melee's to bring them up closer to casters.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly, the bard to hit bonus is absolutely making a difference, and you neglect to comment on the extra 5% doublestrike bonus a bard provides as well.

Again, wherher you are using epic chaosblades and getting an extra 9 dmg per weapon, or an esos with an extra 17, It is NOT overpowered in any shape or form. Even the using the term overpowered is laughable when in melee context. What, you suddenly wipe out hoardes of mobs when you have deadly weapons on your esos?

Sure, it benefits the esos more than, say, lower base damage weapons like greensteel. But, when your making the comparison, use the most powerful THF weapon in the game and compare that to the higher base damage TWF weapons in the game, such as teh Echaosblades or the challenge khopesh.

I must have ran all day yesterday with various combinations of bard/art's in my group- and the difference isn't as enormous as people are complaining here. Sure its a nice boost, but its not something worth a **** nerf!

The problem here is not deadly weapons, its the base damage discrepancy between the esos and lesser THF weapons, or the Echaosblades and lesser khopeshes.

Make better weapons with higher base damages, stop NERFING our **** melees, and our **** fun. I'll say it again, stop nerfing our FUN.

[Darkrok]

I disagree with this wholeheartedly, the bard to hit bonus is absolutely making a difference, and you neglect to comment on the extra 5% doublestrike bonus a bard provides as well.

Again, wherher you are using epic chaosblades and getting an extra 9 dmg per weapon, or an esos with an extra 17, It is NOT overpowered in any shape or form. Even the using the term overpowered is laughable when in melee context. What, you suddenly wipe out hoardes of mobs when you have deadly weapons on your esos?

Sure, it benefits the esos more than, say, lower base damage weapons like greensteel. But, when your making the comparison, use the most powerful THF weapon in the game and compare that to the higher base damage TWF weapons in the game, such as teh Echaosblades or the challenge khopesh.

I must have ran all day yesterday with various combinations of bard/art's in my group- and the difference isn't as enormous as people are complaining here. Sure its a nice boost, but its not something worth a **** nerf!

The problem here is not deadly weapons, its the base damage discrepancy between the esos and lesser THF weapons, or the Echaosblades and lesser khopeshes.

Make better weapons with higher base damages, stop NERFING our **** melees, and our **** fun. I'll say it again, stop nerfing our FUN.

I agree with the last part in nearly all situations. But this was a broken idea from the beginning. It needed changed. Other than this broken spell I'm with you - stop nerfing the melee's, create more options for high level weapons, and add more fun to melee's. Big numbers are fun - make Deadly Weapons that disintegrate proc I was talking about and balance it to give the added dps you're wanting to add. That's fun!

[raknar_the_wolf]

Are you suggesting he is only seeing this from a totally selfish perspective???

That 10d6 base weapon damage is totally reasonable?

And as someone else said, that despite his claim that it was working 100% as intended, it doesnt work on handwraps (well, what does???) or ranged weapons?

Surely you'd expect more from someone who has been around for years and sees himself as the authoritative opinion on everything DDO.

I guess literally everyone is going to instantly roll a caster and dust off their Bauble, Eardweller, Epic RoSS, Conc-Op SP item and Torc and Tower Shield their way to victory. and get the 1,000 Maj SP pots out of the bank. Because that's what every caster has. All he has is his eSoS?

It is pointless to discuss anything with Shade. He think every other class only exists either to help him get bigger numbers over the heads of mobs with his barbs or keep his barbs on their feet. Any time the numbers over the heads of the mobs stop getting bigger, DDO is dooooooooomed.

[oweieie]

Few mob immunities to force, doesn't have stacking issues with tod sets, unarmed or red dragon scale. Good choice.

4.5 average damage for free. Wow, that sucks! Lets whine!

It is pointless to discuss anything with Shade. He think every other class only exists either to help him get bigger numbers over the heads of mobs with his barbs or keep his barbs on their feet. Any time the numbers over the heads of the mobs stop getting bigger, DDO is dooooooooomed.

The reason he's actually whining is that it helps TWF and haste boost classes more than it helps THF barbs.

[countfitz]

How are you reading that a temporary change is a permanent nerf?

Fact: The spell is not finished. It is broken for a number of weapons.

Fact: It was erroneously added to the spell list of only Artificers that leveled up after U12.

Fact: Due to this, there was (is) discrimination against Artificers without this spell, the very ones that paid Turbine money to get the class before it was available via favor.

What they have done INSTEAD of removing the spell for everyone, is to make a place holder and allow all Artificers access to it.

I will restrain my cries of nerf until I see what the finished spell looks like.

Thank you for putting something in the game in the mean time Turbine, instead of taking the easy way out and taking it away from those who had it.

Part of me wants to say "This" but part of me just doesn't give Turbine that much credit. Even if it does, the next update after U13 might be the expansion, which I don't see going in that, so it would be MONTHS after the expansion in a "this is what I've come to expect from Turbine" scenario, which I hope is wrong but lets be honest.

And while I'm happy they're going to "fix" the spell, I don't think it needed a placeholder until it got fixed, just leave it as it was, it wasn't "gamebreaking" like a number of exploits that were allowed to go on far longer.

[Dark-Star]

Any raid leader that denies an Artificer based on class should level one to 20 and get a clue. It is an incredibly powerful and complimentary class if played right, and one spell did not make or break it in U12, nor will it in U13.

I will continue to take Artis on my raids. We had three in LoB last night and it went very smoothly.

[Vesuvium]

First things first, thanks for all the feedback.

Just to get you all up-to-speed on the subject: Deadly Weapons was unintentionally released to the live servers during Update 12. It was released in a form that had not yet been balanced, bug-fixed, or otherwise polished and approved. There are concerns with how it interacts with handwraps, ranged weapons, high base damage weapons, etc.

Additionally, it was released without the corresponding spell scrolls, creating a situation where level-capped Artificers were unable to acquire the spell at all, unless they chose to True Reincarnate. This, combined with the fact that it was more powerful than intended in certain situations, was punishing to early adopters of the class, who now had to compete for groups with newer artificers that had this spell.

Back in November, Eladrin described the intended version of Deadly Weapons. (The details, of course, are subject to change). We would have loved to be able to have this complete in time for U13, but it was not.

Rather than removing the spell outright, and then re-releasing it when it is completed, we chose to introduce a temporary version of the spell in Update 13. This is the version described in the Lamannia release notes. This interim version of the spell will be replaced by the final version that Eladrin described in the next major update.

Also note: In the next update to Lamannia and in the eventual live release of U13, the spell should once again apply to both the off-hand and the main-hand weapons.