Deadly Weapon change

[Cetus]

The bard songs grant the same damage to everyone, though some weapons take better advantage of the bonus. Deadly Weapons does a similar thing for most weapons, but has a much bigger effect on a couple (ESoS, EAG) than on anything else. Bard songs favor weapon types, not individual weapons.

The ESoS is already miles ahead of every other weapon. People like Axer can keep claiming that it is balanced, and A-Okay, but the fact is, it isn't. People can claim that the ESoS being ridiculous DPS is okay because casters are so over-powered, but all that does is make it more difficult to balance melees and casters, since any buff given to melee gets magnified by the ESoS, and still causes a rather large gulf between those toons that have an ESoS and those that don't.

How is it MUCH? If you take an epic chaos chaosblade with an extra 2d8 dmg, thats an average of 9 dmg, 5d6 becomes 17.5. So, 9 extra dmg to each hand or 17.5 dmg to the main one weapon doesn't sound like "MUCH" of a difference. Thats almost essentially how power attack is working right now off a characters strength modifier. Two characters running a 50 strength, the TWF is getting +20 to each hand and the THF is getting what...+30?

People who say that deadly weapons were overpowered on ESOS should quit whining...it simply isn't true, and there's a ton of practice to substantiate that.

I mean, what the hell are you going to comapre the sos to? A light pick? Compare it against weapons that people would want to use at end game...such as the chaosblade example I provided.

[xveganrox]

deadly weapons IS broken and has been since day one.
1d8 force IS an increase over elemental weapons
1d8 force IS in many situations a BIGGER boost than what deadly weapons gave before-daggers, and all those 1d6 melee weapons

Just out of curiosity, which server are you on? Because on Cannith, most end-game DPS characters don't use weapons with a base damage of 1d6 or less. Not counting the Halfling Throwers.

[UrbanPyro]

Deleted.

[Havok.cry]

Welcome to Dungeons & Casters&Drizztclones

That's what this game is to become in the next update.

Fixed that for you.

[Havok.cry]

Has anyone tested to see if this temporary fix allows the spell to effect ranged weapons and handwraps?

[Bacab]

Deadly Weapons on an ESoS was over powered...period.

But isn't that the point?

Monsters have a bajillion HP. Epic Weapons are MADE to make you feel EPIC!

Why shouldn't anyone with an ESoS out-DD my FVS with a LtngII Great Sword? It is sad when my non-TRed WF FVS can pretty much match a Barb or FTR with an ESoS. Yes, I am counting my aura and Divine Punishment and etc. Oh yeah, I can cast heal and mass heal and fly.

Barbarians and Fighters that use two handed weapons needed a buff. I thought Deadly Weapons was that buff.

BUT I do agree, this is just on the "Test Server". They may change it.

Also I have a buddy that works for Bungee (the people who made Halo). Anyway the way a Nerf works is you generally drop it a ton to prepare the masses for the actual nerf. For example...you make it horrible and then fix it and your players say "Its not as good as it used to be, but atleast it isn't as bad as they originally nerfed it." The other thing you do with a "weaker" class is generally boost it way up to get people to try it again and to remove a stigma attached to it...then you real it back in a bit to an acceptable level.

Anyway, before you say SHade and Durnak are wasting their time complaining...Devs DO read the forums and they can see when something is universally seen as excessive (Madstone Boots Nerf will probably not go live as is).

Shade and Durnak and etc are just trying to voice their opinion.

[Moltier]

Just out of curiosity, which server are you on? Because on Cannith, most end-game DPS characters don't use weapons with a base damage of 1d6 or less. Not counting the Halfling Throwers.

I play on Cannith and dual wield +4 or +5 holy burst greater bane weapons...

[nibel]

Two characters running a 50 strength, the TWF is getting +20 to each hand and the THF is getting what...+30?

TWF also gets +30. You add only half your strenght bonus to your off-hand attacks.

[Monkey_Archer]

The current Deadly weapons is not overpowered, it is unfair.
Unfair as in:
-Some artificers for no apparent reason cant use or memorize it
and
-It benefits certain 2-handed weapons (ESOS) by as much as 6 times what it does for single handed weapons

What if the reverse was true, and it gave TWF +12 damage per hand, but if you used it on a 2-handed weapon it only gave +2 damage? Yes that would be equally ridiculous...

Broken spell is broken. Temporary nerf is temporary.

Unrelated: Can you even call the removal of a bug a nerf? I mean when they remove a bug or exploit that benefits players is that a nerf too? If Divine punishment suddenly started stacking up to 10 times and that got fixed would it be considered a nerf? hum...

[orakio]

The bard songs grant the same damage to everyone, though some weapons take better advantage of the bonus. Deadly Weapons does a similar thing for most weapons, but has a much bigger effect on a couple (ESoS, EAG) than on anything else. Bard songs favor weapon types, not individual weapons.

The bard songs grant a static bonus, and because it is static it is much much better for TWF than THF users. On a GTHF user you do ~137.5% of baseline character sheet damage due to 50% damage glancing blows 75% of the time, or 100% character sheet damage if you twitch. With TWF you do between 180% baseline damage(80% offhand procrate) and 200% for tempest rangers. A +10 damage bonus = a different amount depending on the character before even taking into consideration things like critrate.

No feat THF= +11 damage (20% glancing blow damage, 50% of the time for 10% overall bonus)
No feat TWF= +12 damage (20% offhand baseline no feats)
GTHF= +14 damage (really 13.75 but rounding up)
GTWF= +18 damage
GTWF tempest = +20 damage.

As you can see, bard songs don't really grant the same damage for everyone.

The current Deadly weapons is not overpowered, it is unfair.
Unfair as in:
-Some artificers for no apparent reason cant use or memorize it
and
-It benefits certain 2-handed weapons (ESOS) by as much as 6 times what it does for single handed weapons

Again using the GTHF vs. GTWF comparison, deadly weapons grants ESoS +17.5 average damage x1.375. It grants EChaosBlades +9 damage at x1.8-x2.0.

EsoS = +24 damage
EChaosBlades = +16.2-18 damage

Add in the difference from bard songs and you get
ESoS = +38 damage
EChaosBlades = +34.2-38 damage

That is nowhere near 6 times the benefit of 1handed weapons. Deadly weapons prior to the change caused a fairly balanced situation between THF and TWF from those buffs, although TWF still gets more benefit out of any item bonuses to damage (like shintao set). With anything but ESoS TWF pulls ahead again as well.

[Kaldaka]

Yeah artificers will be hard pressed to get into raid groups if this change goes permanent ...

All I have to say is: Turbine,

[dkyle]

The spell now adds +1d8 force damage to a target's main hand weapon.

Can someone confirm this? Hopefully it's just a wording mistake, from copy-pasting Insightful Damage or something.

But if it's true... what game do the devs think this is where TWF needs to be nerfed even more? Runing TWF tactics feats was already insult to U5's injury.

[Cyr]

Can someone confirm this? Hopefully it's just a wording mistake, from copy-pasting Insightful Damage or something.

But if it's true... what game do the devs think this is where TWF needs to be nerfed even more? Runing TWF tactics feats was already insult to U5's injury.

hey, apparently the devs think that the much lower level infusion should be better for twf...

Yeah, these release notes read like they were the scribbles of random ideas from a dev meeting and not actual release notes. There is no overarching vision here, just nonsense thrown out there to see what sticks.

[Barazon]

Oh well: Artificers, The next hundred, or thousand times I decline you from my grps/raids for no longer being a worthwhile class in my mind: Blame Turbine.

If you're going to rant, how about ranting in a way that doesn't directly contradict one of your own threads? Remember this thread where you called Artificers "the ultimate raid healers for most raids"? So if they're "the ultimate raid healers", how does losing the Deadly Weapons spell make them "no longer [...] a worthwhile class"?

[Crann]

This change will likely make more sense as all the other changes to game mechanics are revealed.

The Devs see the big picture, we only see small sections of it now.

[FooWonk]

If you're going to rant, how about ranting in a way that doesn't directly contradict one of your own threads? Remember this thread where you called Artificers "the ultimate raid healers for most raids"? So if they're "the ultimate raid healers", how does losing the Deadly Weapons spell make them "no longer [...] a worthwhile class"?

As most artificers flat-out refuse to contribute to party healing in any way whatsoever, Shade's hardly being self-contradictory here. If an artificer links stacks of 100 of heal, recon, greater restoration, mass cmw scrolls, CSW pots & at least one superior ardor clicky, I'm sure you'll be more than welcome.

Honestly, with or without the change to deadly weapon, when having a solid group matters, I already auto decline artificers.

[Monkey_Archer]

Again using the GTHF vs. GTWF comparison, deadly weapons grants ESoS +17.5 average damage x1.375. It grants EChaosBlades +9 damage at x1.8-x2.0.

EsoS = +24 damage
EChaosBlades = +16.2-18 damage

Add in the difference from bard songs and you get
ESoS = +38 damage
EChaosBlades = +34.2-38 damage

That is nowhere near 6 times the benefit of 1handed weapons. Deadly weapons prior to the change caused a fairly balanced situation between THF and TWF from those buffs, although TWF still gets more benefit out of any item bonuses to damage (like shintao set). With anything but ESoS TWF pulls ahead again as well.

2 things:

1) You are not factoring in crit range/multiplier
So esos is 17.5 * 1.375 * 1.55 = 37.3 damage per swing
Esos on a Frenzied berzerker is 17.5 * 1.6 * 1.85 = 51.8 damage per swing
Chaosblade is 9 * 1.8 * 1.35 = 21.87 damage per swing
Chaosblade on a FB is 9 * 1.8 * 1.65 = 26.73 damage per swing
Chaosblades on a tempest is 9 * 2 * 1.35 = 24.3 damage per swing

So thats still nearly double the benefit

2) While ESOS can be used on everything (and with deadly weapons + augment it's always the best weapon for everything), an eChaosblade is rarely the best weapon for anything.
A regular khopesh (HOBGLOB, etc..) only gets 4.5 * 1.8 * 1.35 = 10.9 damage per swing (which is nearly 4 times less then ESOS)
A rapier only gets 3.5 * 1.8 * 1.25 = 7.9 damage per swing (nearly 5 times less then ESOS)

Not to mention ranged characters and monks get 0 * 0 * 0 = 0

So lets see... 51.8 damage per swing vs 0... looks like it could be a bit more then 6 times the benefit



Anyone else see a problem with +51.8 damage per swing from one spell?


P.S. bard songs are a lot more balanced... a twf khopesh wielder gets 10 * 1.8 * 1.35 = 24.3 damage per swing while a THF ESOS user gets 10 * 1.375 * 1.55 = 21.3 ( so only a ~13% differnce, not the 200-600% that deadly weapons gives)

EDIT: forgot to add barb crit multiplier

[grodon9999]

Yet your min lvl8 lit2 khopesh results in DPS almost identical.

Wait a tic . .. did Shade just admit TWFing wasn't behind THFing? Mark this day on your calendar!

[danotmano1998]

Deadly weapons was a great spell. One I always enjoyed on my melee types.

Now, it's less powerful. *shrug*
Bummer. I won't get bent out of shape just yet until I see what their "permanent" fix is.

At least they aren't removing it completely from the game, nor will they be denying it to those people that started their Arti's earlier and therefore got shafted on this great spell.


Maybe not the BEST solution, but one that works for now.

Ah, sweet deadly weapons, I shall miss you..

[grodon9999]

But . . . this is a third huge nerf to melees in this update.

Seriously? Do the devs even play this game?