Deadly Weapon change

[Jasparion]

Dude, without the ESoS I get outkilled by ungeared casters in... heck any epic. Epic Red Fens, Epic Devil Assault, Epic Phialran, Epic Deneith... you name it. Even with the ESoS I still equal or get outkilled by geared casters in quests and raids. There's absolutely nothing I can do to keep up with their 1-shot mob spells.

Melee and ranged might as well sit in the corner and let the caster do all the work.

Maybe the issue is the player, and not the weapon. eVON1 last night I topped kills as a Ranger mostly using Epic Souleater so I could keep my health up, swapping to dual Turbulent Epee when the mobs were stunned/held.

And no, Im not big-naming myself, Im simply pointing out that if you struggle to get kills with an incredibly powerful weapon, then you need to look at either your gameplay or your character set up.

Or, maybe ignore the fact that you arent getting many trash kills, and instead focus on the most important role for melee DPS - crowding bosses and keeping them away from casters.

I don't live in the future, I live in the now. It is nerfed.

Yes, far better for them to leave something broken, or to even totally remove something from the game while they fix it, than for them to do the sensible thing and have it provide some boost while they get everything working.

If it was implemented badly from the beginning, and all along they had said this and they were going to fix it, you cant call it a nerf. You never should have expected it to stay as it was. Consider it a short term buff like a Holiday 20% XP bonus.

Or do you also expect those to last forever because you like to live in the now? Must be tough being you when those holiday bonuses end.

[xveganrox]

This is just dreadful. It's a top level Artificer spell, it SHOULD be powerful. I'll be going from getting a +3d10 bonus to +1d8. And just like that the Artificer's usefulness to the party gets cut in half.

... While at the same time, this only negatively effects melees (and Arti's ability to get into raids). I hate to say it, but between this and the Madstone Boots now being caster-only, I'm starting to wonder if there is any point in still playing a melee.

[Cetus]

This is absolutely rediculous!

You went from doubling our weapons base dmg to 1d8 force dmg? Stop insulting us turbine, this is the same darn thing that happened with our esos..

Heres a x4 sos, you like it? Enjoying it? NERF!

Here's deadly weapons, you like it? Ok...NERF!

Its very unfun to friggin enjoy something and feel more useful in light of our obviously overpowered caster counterparts and then just get shafted, as USUAL!

It seems that melee characters aren't underpowered enough- lets kick em while theyre down!

And those of you who are taking their statement of "it will be changed" seriously, history dictates the timeframes of when something beneficial comes our way. Don't count on it.


Shame on you turbine for providing a less fun environment for melees, deadly weapons wasn't overpowered to the slightest bit- and it was FUN.

[sly_1]

I was leaning towards dropping some greenbacks in the ddo store to buy the tp for the class and making a melee arti. Idea was using dw with a high base dmg weapon, but with this change, glad I saved my cash.

Peace.

[sephiroth1084]

Pretty sure this wasn't a nerf aimed at present weapons with high damage dice (eSOS, eAntique) but at post-expansion weapons, where I expect base damage will go up up up up.

Pretty sure it is, actually. There were some dev comments in that thread about changing all non-standard dice weapons to X[W] about how any change they did concerned them because of how the ESoS would be affected.

And I don't know what Axer is talking about when he says that DW was similar in boost to bard songs. What's the max damage bonus a bard song gets, +9?

Deadly on the ESoS was +5d6, or 3.5*5 = 17.5 increase in damage, almost twice as much, and that's the average. It could be less, yes, but it could also account for up to +25 damage, or almost 3 times as much.

[Cetus]

Pretty sure it is, actually. There were some dev comments in that thread about changing all non-standard dice weapons to X[W] about how any change they did concerned them because of how the ESoS would be affected.

And I don't know what Axer is talking about when he says that DW was similar in boost to bard songs. What's the max damage bonus a bard song gets, +9?

Deadly on the ESoS was +5d6, or 3.5*5 = 17.5 increase in damage, almost twice as much, and that's the average. It could be less, yes, but it could also account for up to +25 damage, or almost 3 times as much.

You're completely disregarding the to-hit bonuses a bard gives as well, sometimes those to hit bonuses over throw anything deadly weapons did for a character. Oh, and how about 5% doublestrike from the reckless songs? Lets be fair here.

And the statement where you said "..could also account for up to +25 damage..." is a fallacy in making an argument. 5d6 is 5d6...not 25. It can also give you 5, right?

I'd argue that a bard and an arti are equally potent in improving ones damage output.

[sephiroth1084]

You're completely disregarding the to-hit bonuses a bard gives as well, sometimes those to hit bonuses over throw anything deadly weapons did for a character. Oh, and how about 5% doublestrike from the reckless songs? Lets be fair here.

And the statement where you said "..could also account for up to +25 damage..." is a fallacy in making an argument. 5d6 is 5d6...not 25. It can also give you 5, right?

I'd argue that a bard and an arti are equally potent in improving ones damage output.

The bard songs grant the same damage to everyone, though some weapons take better advantage of the bonus. Deadly Weapons does a similar thing for most weapons, but has a much bigger effect on a couple (ESoS, EAG) than on anything else. Bard songs favor weapon types, not individual weapons.

The ESoS is already miles ahead of every other weapon. People like Axer can keep claiming that it is balanced, and A-Okay, but the fact is, it isn't. People can claim that the ESoS being ridiculous DPS is okay because casters are so over-powered, but all that does is make it more difficult to balance melees and casters, since any buff given to melee gets magnified by the ESoS, and still causes a rather large gulf between those toons that have an ESoS and those that don't.

[aristarchus1000]

The bard songs grant the same damage to everyone, though some weapons take better advantage of the bonus. Deadly Weapons does a similar thing for most weapons, but has a much bigger effect on a couple (ESoS, EAG) than on anything else. Bard songs favor weapon types, not individual weapons.

The ESoS is already miles ahead of every other weapon. People like Axer can keep claiming that it is balanced, and A-Okay, but the fact is, it isn't. People can claim that the ESoS being ridiculous DPS is okay because casters are so over-powered, but all that does is make it more difficult to balance melees and casters, since any buff given to melee gets magnified by the ESoS, and still causes a rather large gulf between those toons that have an ESoS and those that don't.

Agree with this, as long as the eSoS exists, it was very hard to buff melee.

With the complaining the devs get, I would be surprised if next time they just removed the spell from the game.

[Shade]

Yes, far better for them to leave something broken, or to even totally remove something from the game while they fix it, than for them to do the sensible thing and have it provide some boost while they get everything working.

Thats where your making a really terrible, and wrong assumption. It's a 100% functiona;, fun spell. Absolutely not broken.

Bug here is the fact scrolls never dropped. I can confirm they are droppign now in U13.. So thats a good fix.

But fixing one thing is only to nerf another related thing it is just evil.

It's not a buff for those who started Artis early. It's new content for them. New nerfed content.

anyways, stupid arguement is stupid.

Somethings worse = nerf.

We are the players, we can cry nerf whenever we want. It's the devs responsibility to avoid this whenver possible, not the devils advocates to try to use some nonsene reasoning to justify it.

Find a new hobby, maybe crayons. They are more fun the being a devils advocate.

and offtopic sephiroth: I dont need to try to claim anything. Video proof is in my signature as it has been for years. Go watch the dps challenge vids yourself, very little dps difference in GS TWF and ESoS. Balance achived in this one part of the game, amazingly. (Though the fact its a million times harder for THF to get to that point then TWF isn't balanced, but this can all be fixed in the future with new weapons so easily.. Not by nerfing the game.)

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Maybe the issue is the player, and not the weapon. eVON1 last night I topped kills as a Ranger mostly using Epic Souleater so I could keep my health up, swapping to dual Turbulent Epee when the mobs were stunned/held.

And no, Im not big-naming myself, Im simply pointing out that if you struggle to get kills with an incredibly powerful weapon, then you need to look at either your gameplay or your character set up.

Or, maybe ignore the fact that you arent getting many trash kills, and instead focus on the most important role for melee DPS - crowding bosses and keeping them away from casters.

Yea well in this case... it isn't the player. I very commonly get top kills over all the other classes in my group in any epic EXCEPT for the casters. And it's not like they're very good caster players either. They literally just push one button and wipe out 5 times the number of enemies I have to struggle with getting 20-30 hits just to bring each one down. It's a gameplay mechanic problem, NOT a gear or skill or luck-based problem.

So tell me, which one of us is not using enough skill?

The caster that stands in one place pushing one IWIN button to wipe out 5 enemies in 1 second.

Or the Barbarian that's running around the room twitch attacking, tripping, stunning, and Supreme Cleaving those 5 enemies one-by-one for about 1-2 minutes.

And oh gawd that ESoS weapon is so overpowered!!!

Uh, ever heard of Deathnip? Epic Thornlord? Epic Chaosblade? We all have our uber weapons for each class. Just because you can't recognize yours doesn't mean it's not there. The crits on the ESoS is the only reason melee is able to compete with casters... just barely.

And keeping bosses away from casters are you joking? Take your average FvS who can prance and wing around while his DoT's finish off the boss. Take your average Sorc who can crit Polar Rays in the 2000+ range while he just kites the boss. Palemaster can shoot down the boss for measly HP sacrifice while he regens and kites.

Yeah let's face reality here: You really just need us melees for meat shields in tanking raids, which is something more and more casters are starting to build for. Eventually you won't need us at all and will just exclude us from all your groups.

[sacredguyver]

Thats where your making a really terrible, and wrong assumption. It's a 100% functiona;, fun spell. Absolutely not broken.

....Bwuh?

A spell that only affects melee weapons, like eSoS or eAG or greensteel or even Cannith-crafted quarterstaves, but does nothing for handwraps (already broken enough as-is) or ranged weapons is WAI and should not be changed. Hopefully it's not just me hearing something a bit... odd in that statement.

While the change is not something most would like (increasing the damage of all weapons, including ranged and handwraps), it shouldn't be disregarded if the new version (+1d8 Force damage) works for everyone and not just those who like to swing around a big metal stick.

[nibel]

Dude, without the ESoS I get outkilled by ungeared casters in... heck any epic. Epic Red Fens, Epic Devil Assault, Epic Phialran, Epic Deneith... you name it. Even with the ESoS I still equal or get outkilled by geared casters in quests and raids. There's absolutely nothing I can do to keep up with their 1-shot mob spells.

My rogue usually tops kill counts in any red fens or phiarlan epic he run. And the only epic item worth of notice he have is an epic midnight greetings. Totally anecdotal. Like your example.

Sure, casters with infinite SP (torc + conc opp) can solo any epic because they can shield block archers for 5 minutes to refill their SP. But on a group few people have the patience to wait while the caster refill. And their "oh-so-called-instakill" usually is on cooldown in the next group.

I'm not saying casters aren't powerful. Just saying that on group dynamics, most things that make casters powerful enough to solo epics don't show up.

================================================== =========
Back on topic, what got me worried about the DW change was that the spell only appear to affect the *main hand* weapon, according to the release notes. Anyone on Lamma can say if the spell still affects both weapons on a TWF?

[FastTaco]

Deadly weapons wasn't overpowered at all, not even on eSoS.

My bards crits go from ~250 to ~300 with deadly. On a barbarian a ~75-100 damage crit increase would be less noticable when they are critting for 800+ already.

[xveganrox]

The bard songs grant the same damage to everyone, though some weapons take better advantage of the bonus. Deadly Weapons does a similar thing for most weapons, but has a much bigger effect on a couple (ESoS, EAG) than on anything else. Bard songs favor weapon types, not individual weapons.

The ESoS is already miles ahead of every other weapon. People like Axer can keep claiming that it is balanced, and A-Okay, but the fact is, it isn't. People can claim that the ESoS being ridiculous DPS is okay because casters are so over-powered, but all that does is make it more difficult to balance melees and casters, since any buff given to melee gets magnified by the ESoS, and still causes a rather large gulf between those toons that have an ESoS and those that don't.

It's not "miles ahead of every other weapon," in my opinion. It the single highest base DPS weapon for almost any two-handed build, but that doesn't mean it's the only weapon people carry. It's miles behind Terror in killing any non-epic living trash and most epic living trash, it doesn't get through any DR naturally unlike the eAG, and only a few people have them. The Deadly Weapons nerf shouldn't be about the eSoS: like I said, only a tiny fraction of people ever get it.

I routinely play with people with eSoS's, and they do more damage then I do. That's okay: it's supposed to be the best DPS sword in the game, and it is. Nerfing DW effects every melee that would group with Artis, though, whether it's reducing the bonus I get on my eAG from +3d10 (avg: 16.5) to 1d8 (avg 3.5) or somebody else's GS Falchion from +2d6 (avg 7) to 1d8 (avg 3.5) or someone else's Epic Thornlord from +2d8+4 (avg 13) to 1d8 (avg 3.5). Ultimately the eSoS users are the very fringe. It negatively impacts all melees, though (as well as ranged characters, hypothetically)

[Qhualor]

Dude, without the ESoS I get outkilled by ungeared casters in... heck any epic. Epic Red Fens, Epic Devil Assault, Epic Phialran, Epic Deneith... you name it. Even with the ESoS I still equal or get outkilled by geared casters in quests and raids. There's absolutely nothing I can do to keep up with their 1-shot mob spells.

Melee and ranged might as well sit in the corner and let the caster do all the work.

100% agree.

i just heard that U14 is going to be called "Casters win, Melees die off Completely"

[Redicular]

....Bwuh?

A spell that only affects melee weapons, like eSoS or eAG or greensteel or even Cannith-crafted quarterstaves, but does nothing for handwraps (already broken enough as-is) or ranged weapons is WAI and should not be changed.

particularly since it is explicitly supposed to work on ranged weapons... you know, the primary weapons of the class that gets the spell

deadly weapons IS broken and has been since day one.
1d8 force IS an increase over elemental weapons
1d8 force IS in many situations a BIGGER boost than what deadly weapons gave before-daggers, and all those 1d6 melee weapons

when we have legitimate complaints like madstone, wasting time whining about a temp nerf just shows poor focus. You know its not gonna last, suck it up for a few months then cry when the real nerf(and the deadly weapon change will be a nerf for eSOS users at least) hits.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

New nerfed content.



anyways, stupid arguement is stupid.



Stupid unwarranted nerf is unwarranted.



Somethings worse = nerf.



We are the players, we can cry nerf whenever we want.



Find a new hobby, maybe crayons. They are more fun the being a devils advocate.



Not by nerfing the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Or did Eladrin get fired and all logic went out the window for U13? What is this madness!?!?!



If they can't have this fixed by the time the expansion is done, the games doomed

I take it your barbarians are pretty ticked off there, huh Shade? Here... follow the bouncing smiling faces... and

Always...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2Wx230gYJw

[FastTaco]

I take it your barbarians are pretty ticked off there, huh Shade? Here... follow the bouncing smiling faces... and

Always...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2Wx230gYJw

Ya, I'm sure he's real mad his crits are going from 1200 to 1100, seriously?.... On the other hand my bard's crits will go down from 300 to 250, a much bigger hit!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Ya, I'm sure he's real mad his crits are going from 1200 to 1100, seriously?.... On the other hand my bard's crits will go down from 300 to 250, a much bigger hit!

I believe this is more about fixing the infusion so it works as intended on handwraps and ranged, just my guess. The way I see it, they are actually fixing a bug that will help us all in the end.

[Jasparion]

I take it your barbarians are pretty ticked off there, huh Shade?

Are you suggesting he is only seeing this from a totally selfish perspective???

That 10d6 base weapon damage is totally reasonable?

And as someone else said, that despite his claim that it was working 100% as intended, it doesnt work on handwraps (well, what does???) or ranged weapons?

Surely you'd expect more from someone who has been around for years and sees himself as the authoritative opinion on everything DDO.

I guess literally everyone is going to instantly roll a caster and dust off their Bauble, Eardweller, Epic RoSS, Conc-Op SP item and Torc and Tower Shield their way to victory. and get the 1,000 Maj SP pots out of the bank. Because that's what every caster has. All he has is his eSoS?