Deadly Weapon change

[tygara]

- Deadly weapons was unintentionally release and snuk into the game, fact
- Deadly weapons was broken as it was only giving certain specs a bonus (no hw or ranged weapons), fact
- Deadly weapons brought with it aswell a huge disadvantage into having leveled up your artificer pre update 12, as those didnt have access to the spell at all, only leaving TRing as option to obtain it, fact


Those are 3 correct facts, not bringing up the other stuff like the spell being overpowered (opinion) or the spell being too big of a boost compaired to bard songs (opinion, as certain numbers in this thread are totally correct about it aswell, just certain specs get way more out of DW, others get way more out of songs)

With those 3 points stated, I fully understand that turbine made the decision of jsut taking the easy way out and leaving the spell in the game, releasing the scrolls so everybody can obtain them now without TRing, and just changing the effect of the spell itself.

Now, that being said, the spell is just way too weak for its spell level, 1d8 force is a joke.
It has already been stated in this thread multiple times that ele weapons is a lvl 2 spell and is in most situations 100% a better spell choise *** mobs being vulnerable to the opposite element.
A level 6 spell, which costs WAY more SP, should be blowing a level 2 spell its pants off. Its like compairing the level 2 arcane spell electric loop with the level 6 spell chain lightning. The level 6 spell SHOULD be doing way more dmg then the level 2 spell (ignore the stun effect, just talking dmg now) as the level 6 is way more SP to cast, has a higher DC (ignore heightened for a sec) and unlocks itself at a way higher level (level 3wiz vs lvl 11wiz)
Electric loop (maximum damage 5d3+15) vs Chain lightning (1d3+3 per caster level, no max) is a significant bonus for a level 2 vs a level 6 spell
This is exactely how DW should reflect, give melees the boost they need. DW shouldnt be the only spell even for bringing some balance back into the game, there should still be other tweaks, but DW is definately a very good step in the correct direction.

IMO, deadly weapons with its 1d8 force is too big of a cut to what the spell level, spell points, and name of the spell gives (aswell as what the spell is suppose to be doing once it is fixed)

I like some of the ideas what have been stated in this thread, but I think it requires a lot more then just upping the force dmg to 2d8 or something. I really think the best suggestion in this thread is a combination of certain proposals.
I think that 2d6 untyped, 4d6 burst untyped (only on a natural 20) and a 10% alchemical fort bypass is the way to go, to bring it back at par as what IMO a spell for that level, SP cost, and name should be doing


Again, I totally agree that the spell needed changing, but it was made into a totaly worthless spellslot right now, totally and utherly waste of space to take into your spell selection.

Just my 2cents

[Ausdoerrt]

In an end-game raid or quest, most people used greensteel weapons that were 2d8, 3d6, or something along those lines. So this is roughly halving the usefulness of the spell in most cases. In the case of the EAG and the ESoS, it's closer to a 1/3 of the what it used to add.

So you have the small minority of eSoS users whine our ears out while most people are benefitting from the broken spell being fixed. Splendid.

Most epic weapons are double damage dice, so deadly should be giving triple not quadruple as it does currently as per DnD PnP rules. And no that wouldn't multiply into crits either as crits are the same type of multiplier as Deadly. So a crit on an epic longsword would be 4d8 base damage. Eladrin's post make it perfectly clear that the spell was intended to work in accordance with those rules, they just haven't worked it out yet and will likely need to rework the whole system for damage dice.

[Yan_PL]

on the other end of the spectrum from the ESoS you have a dagger. Could you imagine dagger damage being improved by just one base damage... its not impressive.

wrong. try shuriken.

there's no reliable way to make up a new buff that would boost DPS of a weapon by X or X%, no matter what the build is - we've got different base damage, different crit profiles, different attack speeds/combat styles, stuffs that results in glancing blow or shields that add in a bash every once in a while.

Adding X force/light/sonic/untyped/negative/bane damage isn't exactly fair - it benefits TWF more than other combat styles.
Doublestrike x% - characters that already have doublestrike get less out of such bonus.
bypass fort x% - matches the name, but would be considered useless on 0% fort mobs
+[base] - best option, IMO, currently not very balanced and not working on wraps, or on ranged weaps with Point Blank Shoot feat. disabled, but that's our goal.
vopal effect or flat vorpal damage or % chance to instakill - good for TWF not good enough for THF, especially that glancing blows never crit or get "natural 20" effects.

I'd really suggest that, until +[base] gets implemented properly and properly stacking with point blank shoot and epic and all kinds of stuff, to keep it 1d8 (rarely resisted damage type) with 1d8 added on x2 crit, 2d8 added on x3 crit, 3d8 added on x4 crit. This way, we keep current balance of weapons with buff that is substantially better than Elemental Weapons, but not IMBA, and easy to implement.

Alternatively, I'd sugest making it work like "enchant weapons" but with "bonus dependant on caster level", and going up to +6, like it was done with Conjure Bolts. This should not increase AC granted by shield (possibly DR)

That would be fun, making eSoS +18 weapon in hands of pure 20 arti with deadly weapons and combat engineer prestige.
I realize that this creates additional problem of widening spectrum of possible to-hit buffs, but I believe, that with the game being like it is now, and with new, harder content inbound, we could stand that. Also, this solution keeps TWF/THF balance, with power attack giving double benefit for THF. (thus translating to +18 damage with THF if we had 6 more power attack)

This buff is still weaker than Pure warchanter bard's inspire courage, but we can't have single artificer spell to be stronger than one of most important features of other class. lvl 14 non-warchanter bard with full enhancement lines adds +6 to attack, +6 to damage. bard also gets inspire greatness (+2 competence bonus to attack). Lvl 20 warchanter bard adds +8 to attack and +9 to damage, for comparison.

[Aesop]

wrong. try shuriken.

there's no reliable way to make up a new buff that would boost DPS of a weapon by X or X%, no matter what the build is - we've got different base damage, different crit profiles, different attack speeds/combat styles, stuffs that results in glancing blow or shields that add in a bash every once in a while.

Adding X force/light/sonic/untyped/negative/bane damage isn't exactly fair - it benefits TWF more than other combat styles.
Doublestrike x% - characters that already have doublestrike get less out of such bonus.
bypass fort x% - matches the name, but would be considered useless on 0% fort mobs
+[base] - best option, IMO, currently not very balanced and not working on wraps, or on ranged weaps with Point Blank Shoot feat. disabled, but that's our goal.
vopal effect or flat vorpal damage or % chance to instakill - good for TWF not good enough for THF, especially that glancing blows never crit or get "natural 20" effects.

I'd really suggest that, until +[base] gets implemented properly and properly stacking with point blank shoot and epic and all kinds of stuff, to keep it 1d8 (rarely resisted damage type) with 1d8 added on x2 crit, 2d8 added on x3 crit, 3d8 added on x4 crit. This way, we keep current balance of weapons with buff that is substantially better than Elemental Weapons, but not IMBA, and easy to implement.

Alternatively, I'd sugest making it work like "enchant weapons" but with "bonus dependant on caster level", and going up to +6, like it was done with Conjure Bolts.

The fairness of it is really not a big concern relative to the effectiveness of it. A Shuriken or Dagger with the "benefits" of Deadly Weapons as written would gain less of a bonus than casting the 2nd level Elemental Weapon effect. that is where the issue I was referring to is. A 6th level spell on a class that caps spell casting at 6th level should see a big difference between a 2nd level and 6th level effect.

A burst effect would be fine, BUT it needs to be a significant increase to all weapons whether it is more effective for one type of combat over another is less relevant than whether it is overall effective.

Heck keep it a force effect but make it a Blast Effect. +1 [WBD] + xd10 Burst(on Crit) + 10d6 Blast on Vorpal. Just make it effective for the cost and level of the effect.

Hell make it 1.5 [WBD] for THF

Aesop

[RedDragonScale]

I really think the best suggestion in this thread is a combination of certain proposals.

I think that 2d6 untyped, 4d6 burst untyped (only on a natural 20) and a 10% alchemical fort bypass is the way to go, to bring it back at par as what IMO a spell for that level, SP cost, and name should be doing

Nice. I like it! +1!

[Ausdoerrt]

there's no reliable way to make up a new buff that would boost DPS of a weapon by X or X%, no matter what the build is - we've got different base damage, different crit profiles, different attack speeds/combat styles, stuffs that results in glancing blow or shields that add in a bash every once in a while.

The original proposed version of Deadly is fair, balanced, and has utility relative to the type of weapon. Once it's implemented, all this will be put to rest.

[Calebro]

I haven't bothered to read all of this thread, but I'd like to point out exactly *why* it's being changed.
This is from another thread:

No it nerfs it for EVERYBODY. Most of the reason people take artificers is for deadly weapons, and by nerfing that spell they are directly nerfing the viability of that class in epics.

Once again, as has been stated many times by many people, it is not a nerf.
Deadly Weapons was never supposed to be released in it's current form. The fact that we have it is a mistake. Changing it so that it works as intended isn't a nerf, it's a bug fix. We're just getting a placeholder in the meantime. That placeholder is much closer to the actual design of DW than it's current implementation is.

I'll let the PHB do the talking here for me.

General Guidelines and Glossary
The general rules for what to do when rounding fractions and when
several multipliers apply to a die roll (often encountered as what to
do when doubling something that is already doubled) are provided
below, followed by a glossary of game terms.

<snip>

MULTIPLYING
Sometimes a special rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll.
As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number
normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value
(such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a
single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value
to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to
the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

For example, Tordek, a high-level dwarven fighter, deals 1d8+6
points of damage with a warhammer. On a critical hit, a warhammer
deals triple damage, so that’s 3d8+18 damage for Tordek. A magic
dwarven thrower warhammer deals double damage (2d8+12 for
Tordek) when thrown. If Tordek scores a critical hit while throwing
the dwarven thrower, his player rolls quadruple damage
(4d8+24) because 3 + 1 = 4.

Another way to think of it is to convert the
multiples into additions. Tordek’s critical hit
increase his damage by 2d8+12, and the
dwarven thrower’s doubling of damage
increases his damage by 1d8+6, so both of
them together increase his damage by 3d8+18
for a grand total of 4d8+24.

A normal Greatsword is base damage 2d6
The fact that it happens to be an Epic Sword of Shadows means that it does 2.5x base, for a total of 5d6. The base damage for a greatswod is still 2d6. The epic version already applies a multiplier (of 2.5) to that base damage, so when Deadly Weapons is applied the result should be 7d6, not 10d6 as people assume (and as normal math would agree with).
You see, we aren't talking about normal math. We're talking about a specific ruling regarding applying a multiplier to something that has already had a multiplier included. This is called "doubling a double" in PnP terms, and the result isnt't a quadruple as math would suggest.
2d6 (base greatsword damage) +3d6 (for epic) +2d6 (for deadly weapons) = 7d6
Look at a GS greatsword (@ 1.5*w): 2d6 (base greatsword damage) +1d6 (for GS) +2d6 (for deadly weapons) = 5d6

This is the reason that Deadly Weapons isn't working properly. Deadly weapons not working properly is also the reason that weapon damage dice notations will be changing so that the eSoS won't be 5d6 base damage, but rather 2d6*(2.5w) {where w = base damage}

We're talking about a specific Dungeons and Dragons rule here regarding doubling a double. The fact that the first multiplier is implied and already accounted for is what makes the wording unclear. And that's also why the damage notations will be changing.

Does that explain it better for you? Do you now understand why "double weapon damage" for an eSoS shouldn't actually be 10d6, but rather 7d6? Does that explain why it's getting "nerfed" in your mind even though it isn't a nerf, but rather a bug fix? Does that explain why we were never supposed to have DW released in it's current form, because that form is broken?

[Aesop]

The original proposed version of Deadly is fair, balanced, and has utility relative to the type of weapon. Once it's implemented, all this will be put to rest.

The original description of Deadly Weapons increased the Weapons Base Damage Dice by 1 ie a Great Sword 2d6 becomes 4d6. How is that good when you are talking about a weapon that has a Base Damage Dice Profile of 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 or even 1d8? Especially when taking into account the level 2 spell Elemental Weapons increases the damage by 1d6 of an elemental that could in several cases be more effective than a flat damage increase.

For a 6th level effect there needs to be something more to it than that. I don't personally care what it is but there should be something more than a minor increase in damage.

+50 damage on a Vorpal, +10% Double Strike, whatever

Aesop

[Ausdoerrt]

The original description of Deadly Weapons increased the Weapons Base Damage Dice by 1 ie a Great Sword 2d6 becomes 4d6. How is that good when you are talking about a weapon that has a Base Damage Dice Profile of 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 or even 1d8? Especially when taking into account the level 2 spell Elemental Weapons increases the damage by 1d6 of an elemental that could in several cases be more effective than a flat damage increase.

For a 6th level effect there needs to be something more to it than that. I don't personally care what it is but there should be something more than a minor increase in damage.

+50 damage on a Vorpal, +10% Double Strike, whatever

Aesop

So it's a buff that benefits the big metal stick users more than dagger users. It's a proportional increase rather than a flat increase. A GAxe is more deadly than a dagger. Surprise.

It's obviously a buff that's intended to help melees the most, and it does just that. Funny thing is, the most whining I see in the thread is from GSword users, not shuriken users. Not every buff in the game has to be equally useful to all classes and builds, it just needs to balance out.

I suppose they could make it add a Vorpal effect instead, in line with the name. Still, 100dmg on a 20 roll = 5 average per swing. 1d8 force per roll (new placeholder version) = 4.5 average, about the same. With Eladrin's desired implementation, GSword users would get extra 7dmg per swing, and consistently unlike the Vorpal effect.

[Calebro]

With Eladrin's desired implementation, GSword users would get extra 7dmg per swing, and consistently unlike the Vorpal effect.

Actually more once crits are figured in. Remember that this is a buff to the base damage of the weapon, so when fixed and implemented properly it will do more damage than the average damage per hit of that die suggests (d8 will not be 4.5, but actually higher, how much higher depends on the crit range and multiplier of the weapon used).

[Aesop]

So it's a buff that benefits the big metal stick users more than dagger users. It's a proportional increase rather than a flat increase. A GAxe is more deadly than a dagger. Surprise.

It's obviously a buff that's intended to help melees the most, and it does just that. Funny thing is, the most whining I see in the thread is from GSword users, not shuriken users. Not every buff in the game has to be equally useful to all classes and builds, it just needs to balance out.

I suppose they could make it add a Vorpal effect instead, in line with the name. Still, 100dmg on a 20 roll = 5 average per swing. 1d8 force per roll (new placeholder version) = 4.5 average, about the same. With Eladrin's desired implementation, GSword users would get extra 7dmg per swing, and consistently unlike the Vorpal effect.

You seem to be missing the point

The effect is and will be less powerful on a number of weapon than this temporary fix is currently.

This fix is adding 1d8 Force damage about 4.5 average.

when its fixed to add +1 to base weapon damage the average damage increase will go up on certain weapons and down on a number of others. Notably rapiers, scimitars short swords and any other weapon that is normally less than a d8.

Even that isn't the real issue though. Take a look at Elemental Weapons a level 2 Spell. It adds 3.5 damage or there about. So with the real version of Deadly Weapons a rapier is going to gain something like 4.2 damage (haven't done out the math)

Shouldn't a level 6 spell do a bit more than a level 2 spell. I'm not saying that it shouldn't add +1 to the Base Weapon Damage. I'm saying it isn't enough to warrant a level 6 spell. I was tossing out something else for it to add to bring up those numbers to something more reasonable relative to the spell level. Even on a Greatsword the damage increase isn't enough to warrant the spell level unless you add something else to the total.


To clarify. Add the bonus +1 Weapon Damage Dice, and add something further to make the effect worth the slot.


Aesop

[B0ltdrag0n]

What about
"Weapon does +5 damage and gains Armor piercing 10% qualities"

[Bloodyfury]

Oh well: Artificers, The next hundred, or thousand times I decline you from my grps/raids for no longer being a worthwhile class in my mind: Blame Turbine.

God...thanks for the good laugh! lol
All artis on your server sucks that bad?

Mine is more than able to be more than "just barely useful" in epic contents, even without this stupid spell. ***... just today in eDA, I was +/- 15 in kills behind a eSoS barb fully geared and even ahead on 2 instakillbutton casters. I do have a couple nice epics, but I still don't have the best possible rune-arm either, so ti could be even better. Anyway, just saying, well geared artis, that are good players too, are more than a match.

So, instead of ******** on the forums on an interesting class only cuz they might no longer provide you with the "OMGHESGONNABOOSTMYESOSFOR20MOREDMGOMGGG" spell, maybe you should just select more wisely, rather than pick up ungeared or gimped fleshy artis, cuz I'll give u this right, there's a lot around... and no doubt that this won't help you appreciate this class.

[SirShen]

For a level 6 spell it should be more then just 1d8 of force damage.

[FooWonk]

The effect is and will be less powerful on a number of weapon than this temporary fix is currently.

Here is the damage the effect will apply.

8.40 great sword
7.80 great axe
6.60 bastard sword | dwarven axe | heavy repeater
6.50 falchion
6.30 khopesh
5.40 long bow | light repeater
4.55 scimitar | rapier | smallblade
4.20 short sword
3.85 quarterstaff

The temporary version is only better for those that are using simple weapons & short sword.

sarcasm
There will be so many doom thread when 10k star shuriken drows are nerfed by the permanent version of the spell!
/sarcasm

[Ausdoerrt]

You seem to be missing the point [sic]

To clarify. Add the bonus +1 Weapon Damage Dice, and add something further to make the effect worth the slot.

You're using a convenient example. Yes, it'll do less for SS and rapiers (the same 3.5 damage). But it'll also do more for the big metal sticks (double that, 7 dmg, for Gswords). So maybe you shouldn't ask for deadly on a rapier toon. Besides, last time I checked, a plenty of SS/rapier toons are rogues, and hardly need a base damage buff anyway...

Just because the buff is a higher level, doesn't mean it needs to blow a lower level one out of the water. FWIW, a lot of the DR-breaking buffs do less than elemental weapons in many situations, and yet I'm not seeing a crusade to buff them. For example, monks get adamantine for free, but I'm not seeing them complain that "a level 3 buff should do more than a level 2 buff like Elemental Weapons". Where are the petitions to add Greater Bane to all DR-breaking buffs? :/

For that matter, I also don't see complaints from wizards that something like Tenser's Transformation (level 6) does less than Displacement (level 3).

Yes, the DW we have now is nice, but is obviously unbalanced to the extreme, and just about breaks certain quests (HoX with a bard and an arti, anyone?). I think the proposed change is acceptable.

[Aesop]

Yes, the DW we have now is nice, but is obviously unbalanced to the extreme, and just about breaks certain quests (HoX with a bard and an arti, anyone?). I think the proposed change is acceptable.

I'll disagree with that statement entirely. The only thing that it is close to OP on are certain Epic weapons with augmented damage profiles otherwise for the cost it is not OP in the least.

Its not like this is a 3rd level group buff spell that adds 10 damage and attack. Its a 6th level single target spell that doesn't stack with other weapon effect spells it should be better than it is.

It most certainly doesn't live up to its name. Maybe if it was named Dangerous Weapon and was 4th level that would make sense to me but Deadly Weapons implies something more to me.

Aesop

[Aesop]

Here is the damage the effect will apply.

8.40 great sword
7.80 great axe
6.60 bastard sword | dwarven axe | heavy repeater
6.50 falchion
6.30 khopesh
5.40 long bow | light repeater
4.55 scimitar | rapier | smallblade
4.20 short sword
3.85 quarterstaff

The temporary version is only better for those that are using simple weapons & short sword.

sarcasm
There will be so many doom thread when 10k star shuriken drows are nerfed by the permanent version of the spell!
/sarcasm

Thank you for doing the math. Its not as bad as I was originally thinking but still not "Deadly" per se... more "Dangerous"

Aesop