Does Pally DPS suck or is it just me?

[grodon9999]

Heh

I'm being serious, it's all gear. nothing special about the build at all.

[Dwarfo]

I hate paladins so much that when i tr'd my main into one, 36 point build mind you - at lvl 16 i just deleted her. She had 4 tier 3 GS items and all her tod rings...but i couldnt take it any longer, the dps was ****. That was about 7 months ago though, im thinking about rolling up another to give it another chance.

[grodon9999]

I hate paladins so much that when i tr'd my main into one - at lvl 16 i deleted her. She had 4 tier 3 GS items and all her tod rings...but i couldnt take it any longer, the dps was ****. That was about 7 months ago though, im thinking about rolling up another to give it another chance.

If you're just looking for a PL DEEP SPLASH!!!!! Like a 12 Fighter/6 pally/2 monk and then LR+5 once you cap

[DrakHar]

I hate paladins so much that when i tr'd my main into one, 36 point build mind you - at lvl 16 i just deleted her. She had 4 tier 3 GS items and all her tod rings...but i couldnt take it any longer, the dps was ****. That was about 7 months ago though, im thinking about rolling up another to give it another chance.

That's fairly excessive. I did Paladin, without any splash, and it was no worse than a barb. That being said, I also hate my barb life, so I guess it fits. I like fighter combos, like The Monster or a different take on the Blender, much better.

[-Zyxas-]

Not sure where this thread has gone, but a quick skim over page one and the last page show it's still on the main subject.
I wish I could say Pally DPS didn't suck and it was just you, but I can't. I like them, but it is quite painful realizing how "gimp" it feels compared to other classes.
=[
Hopefully U13 will help a bit, although I'm sure they won't change much of the stuff that really matters like feats... but *cross fingers*.

[justagame]

I've capped a couple of Paladins, and while I feel I've gotten to the point where I can avoid feeling like a piker, I agree that they need help in today's game.

Specifically, their abilities are nice toys while levelling, but taper off significantly once you get past levels 12-16-ish.

- Divine favor caps at level 9
- Divine might has a stupid long activation time, for a one-minute non-extendable buff. You have to invest a lot of build points just to be eligible for it (which I agree with) -- so it should be more worthwhile than it is
- Divine sac does not scale with attack speed
- Smites do not scale with attack speed, and are so limited in number that they contribute a near-meaningless boost to dps in today's longer boss fights and epic fights (especially with pumped up fort on bosses). It's not rare to run out of smites and other abilities (even LOH) very early on in endgame quests and spend most of the time as a gimped fighter without the feats.

And the PRE's need a bit of help, IMO:

KOTC is a one-trick pony
HOTD is neat while levelling, but not a serious option at endgame
DOS is the least worst of the three, but 99% of all pure paladin DOS builds, even with top-of-the-line armor are not going to have meaningful AC at or even near endgame. This is a defensive build, yet even with decent gear ("decent" meaning good raid gear, maybe an epic or two), AC will be outdone by most pajama builds.

And last but not least, some classes are feat-starved, others are AP-starved. Paladins are BOTH. A pure pally DOS, for example, is probably a good 2-3 feats short of qualifying to be a competitive tank -- and it's a tank PRE!


The result is that while other melee abilities get better with level, paladin abilities wither in comparison, the higher you go.

And as if that isn't enough, the one last differentiator, having 4-5 LOH and some self-healing spells (which are only truly useful if you take a couple of feats you likely don't have room for) -- we've got whole threads full of fighters and barbarians begging turbine to give them costless self-healing (SF potions without penalties).

[sephiroth1084]

I hate paladins so much that when i tr'd my main into one, 36 point build mind you - at lvl 16 i just deleted her. She had 4 tier 3 GS items and all her tod rings...but i couldnt take it any longer, the dps was ****. That was about 7 months ago though, im thinking about rolling up another to give it another chance.

That was silly, Dwarfo.

I say, you had your chance. Move on to greener pastures.

[elraido]

DOS is the least worst of the three, but 99% of all pure paladin DOS builds, even with top-of-the-line armor are not going to have meaningful AC at or even near endgame. This is a defensive build, yet even with decent gear ("decent" meaning good raid gear, maybe an epic or two), AC will be outdone by most pajama builds.

And last but not least, some classes are feat-starved, others are AP-starved. Paladins are BOTH. A pure pally DOS, for example, is probably a good 2-3 feats short of qualifying to be a competitive tank -- and it's a tank PRE!


The result is that while other melee abilities get better with level, paladin abilities wither in comparison, the higher you go.

And as if that isn't enough, the one last differentiator, having 4-5 LOH and some self-healing spells (which are only truly useful if you take a couple of feats you likely don't have room for) -- we've got whole threads full of fighters and barbarians begging turbine to give them costless self-healing (SF potions without penalties).

You have some things right and some things wrong. First of all, Paladins can get a worthwhile AC at endgame (epic is another story but even in some of them is is kind of worthwhile). My pure level 20 DoS can get his up to a 94 with a bard etc. Self buffed it is a mid 80's. That is with out even having the abishai set. So, it is doable....and that is in fullplate to boot...so you don't need to be a pajama wearer to get there. And his job as a tank, he does that just fine...well actually better than fine. His aggro management is extremely good as well.

But you are right about most everything else. Which is kind of sad.

[grodon9999]

The AP starvation is just silly and hopefully will be addressed in the ENH pass. The amount of AP needed to be spent to reach the level of not laughable is just disturbingly high.

What I'd do for pallies is . . .

- KOTC damage affects anything EVIL or from another plane. Limiting it to just EOs is just bad as even against EOs it's not tops.
- Double the amount of smites and cut the regeneration time in half. And yes, I'm serious.
- Change the Divine Sacrifice damage to un-typed. Stuff has light-resistance now because of the over-powered favored souls and this hurts pallies.
- Give smites the ability to insta-kill trash. I'm serious, Pally level + CHR modifier for the DC with a bonus of +10 if you happen to crit. Make Smite Evil actually smite something.

Do the above and you might be cooking with gas.

[voodoogroves]

The AP starvation is just silly and hopefully will be addressed in the ENH pass. The amount of AP needed to be spent to reach the level of not laughable is just disturbingly high.

What I'd do for pallies is . . .

- KOTC damage affects anything EVIL or from another plane. Limiting it to just EOs is just bad as even against EOs it's not tops.

Jade **** for light monks already blends this, right? So, precedent there

- Double the amount of smites and cut the regeneration time in half. And yes, I'm serious.
- Change the Divine Sacrifice damage to un-typed. Stuff has light-resistance now because of the over-powered favored souls and this hurts pallies.

Sure. I mean, it still doesn't break anything.

- Give smites the ability to insta-kill trash. I'm serious, Pally level + CHR modifier for the DC with a bonus of +10 if you happen to crit. Make Smite Evil actually smite something.

Do the above and you might be cooking with gas.

Death from massive damage, though scaled, could handle this. Bonus to the DC from using a smite.

[whomhead]

The AP starvation is just silly and hopefully will be addressed in the ENH pass. The amount of AP needed to be spent to reach the level of not laughable is just disturbingly high.

What I'd do for pallies is . . .

- KOTC damage affects anything EVIL or from another plane. Limiting it to just EOs is just bad as even against EOs it's not tops.
- Double the amount of smites and cut the regeneration time in half. And yes, I'm serious.
- Change the Divine Sacrifice damage to un-typed. Stuff has light-resistance now because of the over-powered favored souls and this hurts pallies.
- Give smites the ability to insta-kill trash. I'm serious, Pally level + CHR modifier for the DC with a bonus of +10 if you happen to crit. Make Smite Evil actually smite something.

Do the above and you might be cooking with gas.

That all sounds great. I'd add a few things.

- Make the Extra Smite Evil line cost only 1 AP per tier.
- Make the Divine Might casting action quickened, like they did with Zeal and Divine Favor.
- Make DM scale 2X if used with a 2-handed weapon.
- Add good damage to undead (that stacks with pure good and undead bane) to the Hunter of the Dead line that increases with tier at something like 1d6/2d6/4d6.

You gave some nice loving to smites, sacrifices, and KotC, but DM and HotD need some attention as well. I think the bonuses to smites and DM are enough of a boost to DoS, so leave that one alone. They do these things, and pallies will be immensely more fun to play / effective in game.

[justagame]

You have some things right and some things wrong. First of all, Paladins can get a worthwhile AC at endgame (epic is another story but even in some of them is is kind of worthwhile). My pure level 20 DoS can get his up to a 94 with a bard etc. Self buffed it is a mid 80's. That is with out even having the abishai set. So, it is doable....and that is in fullplate to boot...so you don't need to be a pajama wearer to get there. And his job as a tank, he does that just fine...well actually better than fine. His aggro management is extremely good as well.

But you are right about most everything else. Which is kind of sad.

I'm not saying it's not possible. But that would make you the 1%

You have an impressive build, and nicely equipped (I remember it from an earlier thread), but we're talking about needing specific epic items, and the right TOD set, just to be competitive with a typical pajama build.

[moops]

Ha, wish Id seen this earlier. I was going to do 3 Pali Lives on my Fighter, but am just doing one now. For me it's not the DPS thing, it's how many buttons one has to push.

Up til about Amrath, I'd have to say:

Ah Guys can u plz wait to kill the boss? I got 4 more buttons to push.

Also, I never knew Khopeshes could get such low numbers.

[grodon9999]

Ha, wish Id seen this earlier. I was going to do 3 Pali Lives on my Fighter, but am just doing one now. For me it's not the DPS thing, it's how many buttons one has to push.

Up til about Amrath, I'd have to say:

Ah Guys can u plz wait to kill the boss? I got 4 more buttons to push.

Also, I never knew Khopeshes could get such low numbers.

This TR practically gave me carpel-tunnel.

Mine's a rapier user so don't get me started on low number!

If I'm ever gonna do a pally for a PL again it'll be a DEEP splash.

[Varashad]

When I think of end-game high level raids comes to mind eMA, eLoB, eVoN6 and That leaves three? eDQ2, eChronos and maybe toss in elite ToD ... hmmm, so kotc applicable to only half of end-game.:/ While Kensei, DS, Zerker and DoS are applicable in all.

True, but then when you don't have LoB and MA, you don't care about those raids. Elite ToD, eDQ2 and eChrono are all very good places for a KotC. I won't deny you that DoS is better outside of those raids, but in side them, the fighter and barbarian hate tanks better watch their backs.

[jadenkorr]

The AP starvation is just silly and hopefully will be addressed in the ENH pass. The amount of AP needed to be spent to reach the level of not laughable is just disturbingly high.

What I'd do for pallies is . . .

- KOTC damage affects anything EVIL or from another plane. Limiting it to just EOs is just bad as even against EOs it's not tops.
- Double the amount of smites and cut the regeneration time in half. And yes, I'm serious.
- Change the Divine Sacrifice damage to un-typed. Stuff has light-resistance now because of the over-powered favored souls and this hurts pallies.
- Give smites the ability to insta-kill trash. I'm serious, Pally level + CHR modifier for the DC with a bonus of +10 if you happen to crit. Make Smite Evil actually smite something.

Do the above and you might be cooking with gas.

I really like these changes grodon. I would add,

- Divine Favour scales to Level 18, making it +6/+6. Paladins have to-hit issues against non-EO, the damage doesnt hurt either.
- Either remove DM4 entirely or lower stat requirement to 18. Paladins have M.A.D, having an enhancement that is for all practical purposes nearly impossible to reach, barring a +4 tome (or THF so the points can be put into cha instead of dex), is just poor design.
- Reduced cooldown on Divine Sacrifice.
- New tier of Divine Sacrifice (might be coming anyway due to epic levels)
- Blessed Weaponry enhancement line, gives +1/+1 per tier against evil

And even if both your and my changes went into the game, id be willing to bet that paladin dps STILL wouldnt be tops except against EO.

*Casts summon absolute-omniscience for some concrete dps numbers.

[Ralmeth]

That all sounds great. I'd add a few things.

- Make the Extra Smite Evil line cost only 1 AP per tier.
- Make the Divine Might casting action quickened, like they did with Zeal and Divine Favor.
- Make DM scale 2X if used with a 2-handed weapon.
- Add good damage to undead (that stacks with pure good and undead bane) to the Hunter of the Dead line that increases with tier at something like 1d6/2d6/4d6.

You gave some nice loving to smites, sacrifices, and KotC, but DM and HotD need some attention as well. I think the bonuses to smites and DM are enough of a boost to DoS, so leave that one alone. They do these things, and pallies will be immensely more fun to play / effective in game.

I agree with all of these, and I also think divine sacrifice needs a boost:
-Tier 1 is good as is
-Boost tiers 2 and 3. Ex, tier 2 could be that it adds 9d6 damage. Tier 3 does 12d6 and increases your crit multiplier by another 1.

[Nospheratus]

You have some things right and some things wrong. First of all, Paladins can get a worthwhile AC at endgame (epic is another story but even in some of them is is kind of worthwhile). My pure level 20 DoS can get his up to a 94 with a bard etc. Self buffed it is a mid 80's. That is with out even having the abishai set. So, it is doable....and that is in fullplate to boot...so you don't need to be a pajama wearer to get there. And his job as a tank, he does that just fine...well actually better than fine. His aggro management is extremely good as well.

But you are right about most everything else. Which is kind of sad.

That sounds great. I have a paly too that strives to get to high AC numbers too and if i'm not mistaken will reach about 92 (buffed on plate+shield) as soon as he is capped. Yet, that is only about somewhat useful in the end-game. LoB on hard will hit you on a 10(?) with that ac... A fighter will get there unbuffed, which really shows how different they are.

The AP starvation is just silly and hopefully will be addressed in the ENH pass. The amount of AP needed to be spent to reach the level of not laughable is just disturbingly high.

What I'd do for pallies is . . .

- KOTC damage affects anything EVIL or from another plane. Limiting it to just EOs is just bad as even against EOs it's not tops.
- Double the amount of smites and cut the regeneration time in half. And yes, I'm serious.
- Change the Divine Sacrifice damage to un-typed. Stuff has light-resistance now because of the over-powered favored souls and this hurts pallies.
- Give smites the ability to insta-kill trash. I'm serious, Pally level + CHR modifier for the DC with a bonus of +10 if you happen to crit. Make Smite Evil actually smite something.

Do the above and you might be cooking with gas.

That all sounds great. I'd add a few things.

- Make the Extra Smite Evil line cost only 1 AP per tier.
- Make the Divine Might casting action quickened, like they did with Zeal and Divine Favor.
- Make DM scale 2X if used with a 2-handed weapon.
- Add good damage to undead (that stacks with pure good and undead bane) to the Hunter of the Dead line that increases with tier at something like 1d6/2d6/4d6.

You gave some nice loving to smites, sacrifices, and KotC, but DM and HotD need some attention as well. I think the bonuses to smites and DM are enough of a boost to DoS, so leave that one alone. They do these things, and pallies will be immensely more fun to play / effective in game.

Hopefully the enhancements redesign will take care of making some good changes (like the ones above) to palys.

IMO, paly's need a boost to dps, but mostly a boost to survivability. They aren't the best at anything, except at being average.

What I would add (in addition to the other suggestions) to all paly's:
- Immunity or very high resistance to death effects
- Immunity or very high resistance to mind affecting spells/SLAs from evil creatures
- Make the LoHs regen
- Make smites regen faster
- Make smite enhancements cheaper - they only work VS evil!

[elraido]

One thing that I would think that would be interesting.
Divine Hands
AP cost 2
Prereq: Extra Loh III, Extra Turning I
You can spend a turn undead attempt and regenerate a LOH. You can't have more loh than your normal max amount. (for most defenders of sib 5). Cooldown of 15 seconds.

Also, please make the cool down for glorious stand shorter and make the duration longer. 20 seconds with a 5 min timer is little extreme. Make it 20 seconds plus 1 second per paladin level (max 40 seconds) and make the timer on it 1:30. Basically have it it on for 40 seconds, off for 40 seconds, on for 40, off for 40.

[sephiroth1084]

That sounds great. I have a paly too that strives to get to high AC numbers too and if i'm not mistaken will reach about 92 (buffed on plate+shield) as soon as he is capped. Yet, that is only about somewhat useful in the end-game. LoB on hard will hit you on a 10(?) with that ac... A fighter will get there unbuffed, which really shows how different they are.

How?

Paladins get +6 AC from their aura + Bulwark IV + DoS.
Fighters get +6 AC from SD + FAM III.
Fighters can better afford to take all of Dodge, Mobility, Fighter PL, Combat Expertise, but that is only likely +3 AC over a paladin.

The only time fighters really end up with better AC is when a paladin is standing next to them.