Does Pally DPS suck or is it just me?

[Blank_Zero]

Literally? DS 2 gives an average of +25 dmg x2 if twf. On top of average 38 base dmg per hit at lvl 14, 25 from DS makes 63 dmg before procs. Other melee do this consistently with one handed weapons.

My Blitztank currently does about that much every hit, and it only gets higher against stunned mobs or with Deadly Weapons active. I'm still missing some gear though.

[jadenkorr]

I posted something about this in the enhancement thread. It went something like this, Paladin APs are too tight, particularly smite line (20 AP for everything). KotC applies to too little enemies, HotD mainly useful for levelling. Divine Might stat requirements are too strict (DM4 in particular). Suggested using iconic Holy Avenger and rework it into either a line of dps enhancements available to all paladins (call it Blessed Weaponry or something), and/or scrap the entire KotC PrE, rework it into the Holy Avenger PrE (which would apply to evil monsters more broadly), and make it the definitive paladin DPS PrE.

Edit: Off-topic, I want to dual wield +5 Halflings of Pure Good. Fear my wrath Harry!

[Purkilius]

I followed Junts 18/2 pally monk build for my first melee. My focus was to build a toon for Shroud and ToD esp. boss dps and with ToD set, GEOB, sundering ooze guard and timing those DS and Smites well I think he does really well.

But in Epics if I dont have a IC song going on he just meh.

With the evasion, torc and conop he is very survivable much better soloing the challenges than my sorc.

I used 2 paralizers with festival icy burst while lvling and they did do a good job esp. if you had a barb beside you that is why I am farming the challenges for those water khopeshes. Has anyone tried them in epics?

But at the end of the day it is very frustrating being limited to EO quests/raids at cap!

Any ideas for a TR?

[Emili]

I am actually under the impression that the DPS you deal is inversely proportional to the amount of paladin levels to take.

If you want to have a paladin icon, my guess is that 12 Paladin/8 Monk will outdps pure pallys or 18/2 builds greatly.

Tier III of pally's Kotc and Hotd have no spunk to them ... kensei and zerker have larger gains at that tier III not only in the tier but in the feat/granted abilities plus they are generalist and not stuck with some speciffic mob. Pally AP's are so tight as it is too.

Kotc is fine for vale, armath and IQ but come epics? House P epics, eDQ and the back of eLoB.(I've no clue why eLoB is an eo? but the extra dice do proc.)

The last perk a pure pally get is the capstone but is too little, too late and too speciffic 1d6 evil 2d6 evil+undead though all weapons good aligned does mean an eSoS or eChaosBlade need little but metal on them. I use eBrigands blades on mine for time being - even though Khopesh spec'd forever... I just can't seem to wish to go for the eChaosBlade for her when I have others which use Khopeshes too.

The largest issue I see is they added these damage perks as extra dice kotc for instance 4d6 then a capstone for an additional 3d6 rather than up front in the main weapon rolls. Leaves them feel somewhat like weak rogue splash and your only way to compensate be the button mashing of zeal, df, dm and ds all of which become tedious and hard timmings.

Another thing about them is trying to maintain the "to-hit" levels you must... fighters and barbs are easy to maintain the levels. Pallys lack there a lot as are stuck capping the str stat and forced to to-hit items... and the clickies avail to amplify str stats such remove scope of utilizing spells (zeal df... )

Long ago I suggested dm should be more like kensei surge in such respecs though not as high and the 7d6 (24.5) dice should be done away with and replaced with flat + values somehow based off cha to main damages (and to-hit). Then we've 9d6 for DS but still the AP's are running so thin here. Can afford but III of ea if ya wish to spec out a pure full and have some left for things like racial toughness... etc...

Someone in thread mentioned deep monk splash ... well as it stands at the moment imho monk (least multi-Tr'd lives) hold the keys to DPS in DDO.

Literally? DS 2 gives an average of +25 dmg x2 if twf. On top of average 38 base dmg per hit at lvl 14, 25 from DS makes 63 dmg before procs. Other melee do this consistently with one handed weapons?

Yes, other melee classes typically do more than that... at 14 also Pally start to tapper off in increase, whereas something like a barb starts to make real gains.

[karl_k0ch]

Someone in thread mentioned deep monk splash ... well as it stands at the moment imho monk (least multi-Tr'd lives) hold the keys to DPS in DDO

Other than me, in the part you just quoted?

[Emili]

Other than me, in the part you just quoted?

May be.

I'm inexperienced with paladins so I'll admit I have some ignorance on this subject, so pardon me, but don't paladins have better survivability than fighters and barbarians? If thats the case, then fighters and barbarians should have better DPS. Each class should have its own advantages and giving a class its own advantages as well as the advantages of other classes is unbalancing.

They are and they're not...

Outside of DoS a pally is really about as survivable as some geared up barb chuging SF pots. Pallys are too thin for those unless is dire need for reteat... last resort. Devotion is nice 'cept the class AP thin is and stat thin on shoring up PrE and DPS and other things...

DoS (HP, DR, AC when it applicable) is great survival kotc/hotd and thier survival is just about par with other DpS class' PrE mostly, save for a few AP in devotion you may queeze in and a couple loh. So comparing something like kotc to kensei or zerker is not on par, the other much much better in offering synergies and perks in class.

Come survivable PDS melee if we looked at saves and dr a monk in most cases has a pally beat and will dps rings around them just due speed of unarmed add in ki strikes and gear added procs... not many people think in terms of the "s" in dps.

Pally DPS sweet spot stops at Zeal (lvl 14)... and higher levels on kotc/hotd side lend little to nothing for added survival.

Am pretty sure as it stands atm the best PrE for a Pally is DoS in terms of what they bring to the table.

But, the end game is still mostly Dungeons and Devils; all the high level raids aside from MA, LoB and eVoN6 benefit from a KotC paladin as much, if not more, than a barbarian or fighter. But yes, the long ass activation time for DM sucks. I wish they would make the duration last like 5 minutes and just give us less uses or something.

When I think of end-game high level raids comes to mind eMA, eLoB, eVoN6 and That leaves three? eDQ2, eChronos and maybe toss in elite ToD ... hmmm, so kotc applicable to only half of end-game.:/ While Kensei, DS, Zerker and DoS are applicable in all.

Current trend in pally be DoS with an eFang for tanking eLoB, etc... DpS is just not something in pally atm and am awaiting Kotc or Hotd come back into style again and then TR from there as I've a heavy investment in khopeshes... sometimes though I feel maybe best toss them and look at other things.

[grodon9999]

SO I got her to cap and reset ENH to my planned DOS build . . . SO much better.

Glad I got here but that journey was painful, she's now doing what I want her to do.

[karl_k0ch]

Glad I got here but that journey was painful, she's now doing what I want her to do.

That is, holding aggro and not dying?

[svinja]

Then it sounds like to me that the issue isn't lack of DPS, its that paladin survivability needs to be improved.

And you are correct. Paladins are an unpopular class for two reasons - they have too low DPS to shine offensively, and inadequate HP to shine defensively, all the while being difficult to build and having to specialize a lot / make sacrifices.

But I doubt this will change. Paladins are one of the classes that is "allowed to suck", buffing them significantly would be risky. Imagine a patch where paladins become superior to barbarians and LFMs often have the barb icon off and the pally icon on (the opposite of how it is now). The forums would be drenched in tears. Subscriptions would be cancelled. BARBS NOT WANTED IN GROUPS?? THE GAME IS BROKEN!

[WruntJunior]

Imagine a patch where paladins become superior to barbarians and LFMs often have the barb icon off and the pally icon on (the opposite of how it is now). The forums would be drenched in tears. Subscriptions would be cancelled. BARBS NOT WANTED IN GROUPS?? THE GAME IS BROKEN!

This part especially is too true...a lot of barbarians are already ****ed when they get less than 200 from a heal scroll and they're told they're not tanks. The sheer rage over paladins being better than barbarians would be an amusing catastrophe. :P

Closer to on-topic...Paladin dps is REALLY bad. Bad enough that I deleted a level 20 paladin because I didn't have the gear to make it a tank, didn't care to TR it into a fighter or such, and didn't want to have that character slot eaten by suck. It used to be really good when the hardest things I did were Tower and Vision...but it doesn't cut it between epics and the new raids.

Hope your experience is better with a tank, Grodon.

[grodon9999]

Hope your experience is better with a tank, Grodon.

That is, holding aggro and not dying?

From 1-18 I loved her as a survivable DPS, the DPS was lite but not really noticable relative to other stuff. She hit a wall at 18, levels 18-19 were just plain painful but at cap . . .

first things is she gain 12 STR between gear and the stance.

Mid 700s HP. Even with mediocre healing amp getting over 200 with CSW (Ardor pots, maximize). I'm pretty sure she could heal herself while tanking Elite VOD.

Damage output is still ****, but **** can she hold aggro! I can't believe how little damage you can do and still hold aggro over some particular heavy hitters.

My fighter (Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 stalwart/tempest) on the other hand doesn't have as much defense (same buffs and stuff put his AC at 94 would put her at 100) but does a heck of a lot more damage.

I'm happy with her right now, but just gotta say DSP pallies need love, hopefully the ENH changes will allow for this.

[Chai]

And you are correct. Paladins are an unpopular class for two reasons - they have too low DPS to shine offensively, and inadequate HP to shine defensively, all the while being difficult to build and having to specialize a lot / make sacrifices.

But I doubt this will change. Paladins are one of the classes that is "allowed to suck", buffing them significantly would be risky. Imagine a patch where paladins become superior to barbarians and LFMs often have the barb icon off and the pally icon on (the opposite of how it is now). The forums would be drenched in tears. Subscriptions would be cancelled. BARBS NOT WANTED IN GROUPS?? THE GAME IS BROKEN!

Classes being allowed to suck is poor game design. Barbarian is a one trick pony so it better do that trick well. Paladins sacrifice raw DPS for utility like ranger does, and as such, I see alot of poorly played paladins like I see alot of poorly played raners. They use their buffs then go into "fighter mode" where they only swing their weapon and never heal or mid battle buff. People observe this and disallow the class into the LFMs.

The only thing they would have to do to buff them would be to make ac matter even in epics. There is too much of a fear in this game that an unhittable tank would trivialize things, yet we have toaster-liches and shield specced FvS doing just that.

[Emili]

From 1-18 I loved her as a survivable DPS, the DPS was lite but not really noticable relative to other stuff. She hit a wall at 18, levels 18-19 were just plain painful but at cap . . .

first things is she gain 12 STR between gear and the stance.

Mid 700s HP. Even with mediocre healing amp getting over 200 with CSW (Ardor pots, maximize). I'm pretty sure she could heal herself while tanking Elite VOD.

Damage output is still ****, but **** can she hold aggro! I can't believe how little damage you can do and still hold aggro over some particular heavy hitters.

My fighter (Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 stalwart/tempest) on the other hand doesn't have as much defense (same buffs and stuff put his AC at 94 would put her at 100) but does a heck of a lot more damage.

I'm happy with her right now, but just gotta say DSP pallies need love, hopefully the ENH changes will allow for this.

Congratz you made it to DoS.

[sephiroth1084]

As someone who has spent a lot of time playing paladins, and has some experience for real comparison (******-DPS barbarian, a fighter 20 life between paladin lives, pure rogue Assassin), I'll say that I feel like if you're using all of the tools available for a paladin, and are built to maximize them, the DPS isn't terrible, but that splashing for at least Haste Boost I makes a noticeable difference, and that paladins definitely need a boost.

For Divine Might, until we get the activation time fixed, the trick is to learn to activate it while running to a fight/enemy. Unlike most other boosts, the activation doesn't affect run speed, which is one blessing. Quicken also helps a lot for Divine Favor and Zeal. DF, at least, has a new, faster activation time than it used to, but cutting that and Zeal's time down really makes a difference as well.

Ultimately, you should be swinging with +9 on your attacks, +10% double-strike, and an extra +7d6 damage every 4-5 swings. TWF with khopeshes or scimitars is waaaay ahead of THF on a paladin. I'll say that if I weren't so focused on survivability and tanking, I'd never play a two-handed paladin.

For leveling purposes, I would absolutely splash at least 2 Fighter or Rogue for Haste Boost I by around level 15 or so.

[Sidewaysgts86]

Just tossing this out there- Ive played paladins pretty heavily since I joined DDO, well over a year ago now- And I have to say, I must be one of the only few people who DONT mind the Divine-Might activation time. Like others have stated before- I've simply learned to adjust my play style to suit it. Use it between fights, or when youre running from one mob to another. It literally only takes a couple seconds to hit, and you can run at full speed while rocking it. Know a big fight is coming up? DM. Know its ABOUT to run out? Pump it up as you switch targets.

[Sarisa]

Switched my Pali to DoS as well. Since I mostly do non-devil epics, I never went with KotC in the first place, so I still used my leveling build with HotD. I miss the added heal amp, but am already happier with the added threat (at times I tank, when not tanking, I use a 2-hander), extra 120ish HP, and much higher AC capability when I gearswap.

[svinja]

From 1-18 I loved her as a survivable DPS, the DPS was lite but not really noticable relative to other stuff. She hit a wall at 18, levels 18-19 were just plain painful but at cap . . .

first things is she gain 12 STR between gear and the stance.

Mid 700s HP. Even with mediocre healing amp getting over 200 with CSW (Ardor pots, maximize). I'm pretty sure she could heal herself while tanking Elite VOD.

Damage output is still ****, but **** can she hold aggro! I can't believe how little damage you can do and still hold aggro over some particular heavy hitters.

My fighter (Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 stalwart/tempest) on the other hand doesn't have as much defense (same buffs and stuff put his AC at 94 would put her at 100) but does a heck of a lot more damage.

I'm happy with her right now, but just gotta say DSP pallies need love, hopefully the ENH changes will allow for this.

Wow 100 AC and mid 700s HP is awesome for a paladin. Could you link your character so I can see the gear setup?

[Nahual]

This is why your last lvl in pally should be 18th level. Bank 19 and 20.

[grodon9999]

Wow 100 AC and mid 700s HP is awesome for a paladin. Could you link your character so I can see the gear setup?

It's just the generic 18/2 pally monk (pajamas - TWFing) with every piece of gear in existence, nothing special.

I'm still experimenting with feats, ENH, etc . . . I'd write the build but it's still in flux. Also with the current state of the game I'm not sure how effective it'll be until I get some more raids under her belt.

[Thrudh]

with every piece of gear in existence, nothing special.

Heh