Does Pally DPS suck or is it just me?

[AylinIsAwesome]

I like the idea of CHA adding to attack bonus, would help people who strive for DM4 (or just make DM give attack and damage bonus^^).

Yeah. Right now the returns for high CHA aren't really worth it currently.

Merging the redemption line with HotD I'd say no, I know APs are tight but I used to have a TWF KotC with redemption. A bigger boon to give HotD would be regenerating LoH, so if they take redemption they are more likely to use it.

I was thinking to merge them since the Redemption line is expensive, and some UMD or a Shroud item can replace the entire line. I figured that merging them would help newer players out.

Though I do like the regenerating LoH idea too. But I think the Redemption line would have to be cheaper if that was the case. Something like 2/1/1 or 2/2/2 for the line, instead of 4 (plus pre-reqs) just for the first line.

And the disruption they get at 18 atm is laughable (I had hoped epic disruptor would be HotDs playground, I was wrong).

That's why I want to replace it with just straight-up damage.

Not sure if I agree with this. From what I understand, the next mod will have us going to realm of the dead. If you have a twf hotd with two triple pos weapons...he will absolutly own.

Most characters would absolutely own with triple positive weapons against undead...

The extra dice would only be slightly better than a TWF Bard using Frenzy or a TWF Bludgeon-specced Kensai if you just consider the feats and enhancements that give extra damage (some people might LR into that for that content). I don't think that +9 damage would make HotD Paladins OP in that content, since KotC Paladins (who get more bonus damage) aren't really OP in Shavarath right now.

My reasoning for the bonus damage is that KotC should get damage versus everything, not just EOs or it becomes too pidgeon-holed. But I also think that HotD should do just slightly more damage to Undead than KotC.

Actually, I think there are reports that is true...or close to it. When they have the right weapons, the ToD set, the prestige enhancements, divine sac, divine might, smite evil, etc it all adds up fairly well. Heck, the ToD set with the prestige adds something like 9d6.

10d6

4d6 from KotC 3, 3d6 from Set, 3d6 from Capstone.

[elraido]

You forget insta death on a nat 20 unless they make an insane save...then they take a good amount of light damage.

[chodelord]

pals appear to be poorly thought out

the fact that their "active" abilities scale with twf but not thf makes paladins much harder to optimize a build for

---
a few minor changes would imo go a long way to bring paladins up to the level of other melee

1. divine might should just be permanent
2. smite, divine sacrifice, and divine might should be multiplied by 1.5x for 2 handers
3. divine favor should scale to level 18 at +6/+6
4. hotd should get a half str version of the radient servant aura
5. kotc 3 should grant a banishing vorpal effect, kotc 2 should grant a pulsing "despair" effect vs evil outsiders (will save or helpless on initial contact, shaken whether or not save succeeds)
6. dos should get a pulsing aoe taunt

[voxson5]

Taking aggro at the end game shouldn't be a huge issue for most paladins if they have the right stuff in enhancements, gear and all those other goodies that generate threat. I know I have issues with it in the past...stealing it from the dedicated "tank" (a twf wf with out much threat enhancement) and getting yelled at it.

Yeap, had that happen on every ToD on my pure wf pally life (I didn't even have a dr breaker, no Div. Righ., just smiting/sacrifices)

[NaturalHazard]

True....how long ago was the level cap at 10?

It is true paladins do have a short end of the stick. Not enough ability points, skill points, enhancement points, lackluster dps. A bone would be nice.

it seems even a whole leg of ham wouldnt over power em.

[whomhead]

I agree with the OP that yes, paladin DPS is pretty dang bad right now. Yes, you do get the benefit of some survivability for that lower DPS... However, there are lots of things you can do to remedy that on other classes with gear and tactics. In the end, it is incontrovertible that paladins need a boost if they want to stay competitive in any content but eChrono or ToD. Since we veer ever further from that content with each update, there is but one conclusion: NERF BARBS!

[AylinIsAwesome]

I agree with the OP that yes, paladin DPS is pretty dang bad right now. Yes, you do get the benefit of some survivability for that lower DPS... However, there are lots of things you can do to remedy that on other classes with gear and tactics. In the end, it is incontrovertible that paladins need a boost if they want to stay competitive in any content but eChrono or ToD. Since we veer ever further from that content with each update, there is but one conclusion: NERF BARBS!

Or make ToD Epic. Horoth has DR 100/Paladin and immunity to all elements and light damage.

[unbongwah]

DR 100/Paladin

Soooo, what, you're suggesting a HO barb wielding a halfling paladin?

[whomhead]

Soooo, what, you're suggesting a HO barb wielding a halfling paladin?

It wasn't. But... well, it is now!

[AylinIsAwesome]

Soooo, what, you're suggesting a HO barb wielding a halfling paladin?

Yes!

[Sidewaysgts86]

I've never felt my paladin was that bad in DPS when compared to similarly geared chars. Maybe we can break things down and compare them a bit to shed some light on the situation? Just for arguments sake well assume EOs since its coming up a lot

Fighter:

Well figure for 34 str- 18 base, 6 enhancement, 2 tome, 3 fighter enhancement, 5 levels. Pretty solid "unbuffed" number.

To hit:
+12 str
weapon focus +1 to hit
Greater weapon focus +1 hit
kensei I +1
kensei II +1
power surge +4
power attack -5

Total: +15

Damage:
+12 str
Greater weapon specialization +2 dmg
Weapon specialization +2 dmg
kensei i +1
kensei ii +1
power surge +4
Power attack +5

total +27 easily enough


Paladin


Well figure 28 str here easily enough. 16 base, +6 item, +2 tome, +4 levels, possible 29 if using all 5- but with MAD its very likely youll give 1 somewhere else (Charisma for higher Divine might, Dex for two weapon fighting, etc)

To-hit
+7 str
+3 divine favor
+4 evil outsiders
-5 power attack

total +9, 6 difference in favor of fighter. (Tossing an edit here: Seriously feel paladins should have a higher to-hit against EOs than this- This break down makes it painfully clear why)

Damage:
+7 str
+3 divine favor
+8 divine might
+5 power attack

total +23, 4 different in favor of fighter

Now factor in the other goodies (heres where things get interesting), KotC III is 4d6, that should average an extra 14 per hit, or +37 additional damage per hit when added with the previous numbers. Its 7d6 with the set items, for an extra average of 24(.5) per hit, so +47. Its 10d6 with the capstone (and the set), so an extra 35 per hit- or +58 extra damage per hit to an EO.

What am I missing?

This also completely ignores divine sacrifice which at its top tier does 9d6 damage on a 3 second cool down, or about 600 damage average per minute (which isnt a lot really, thats only about 10 extra dps, less than 20 with offhands hitting, but its nice icing on the cake), and (Exalted) smites- Which can really give a paladin some ridiculous burst-dps against say a single boss (assuming the paladin didnt waste them on trash along the way, or at least waste many)

Random food for thought, this only happens seldomly, so its knowledge is more of a fun/teehee factor than anything else. In those lovely moments where us 2wf'ing paladins land our zeal/off hand hits with our main on a divine sacrifice- we get an extra 57d6 for the attack. Neato.


Whoever reads this, please dont take this post the wrong way. Im sure im missing stuff- So please give us the details. I want to make this comparison as accurate as possible so, again, we can properly shed some holier-than-thou light on the subject when comparing the dps of a paladin to say, the fighter.

[voxson5]

smites & divine sacrifice/damage boost on pally side

Haste/damage boost on fighter side

(i'm sure there's others)

[Bacab]

easy answer...

Fighters and Barbs do more DPS.

Paladins should have more survivabilty over those two classes.

PLD is kinda a middle of the road class.

[Bacab]

OH YEAH to people who have not seen it...

Do a search for the build called the "Doorstop Palidin". AWESOMESAUCE!

Screw it...I did it for ya...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=190317

[Dartwick]

I've never felt my paladin was that bad in DPS when compared to similarly geared chars. Maybe we can break things down and compare them a bit to shed some light on the situation? Just for arguments sake well assume EOs since its coming up a lot

Fighter:

Well figure for 34 str- 18 base, 6 enhancement, 2 tome, 3 fighter enhancement, 5 levels. Pretty solid "unbuffed" number.

To hit:
+12 str
weapon focus +1 to hit
Greater weapon focus +1 hit
kensei I +1
kensei II +1
power surge +4
power attack -5

Total: +15

Damage:
+12 str
Greater weapon specialization +2 dmg
Weapon specialization +2 dmg
kensei i +1
kensei ii +1
power surge +4
Power attack +5

total +27 easily enough


Paladin


Well figure 28 str here easily enough. 16 base, +6 item, +2 tome, +4 levels, possible 29 if using all 5- but with MAD its very likely youll give 1 somewhere else (Charisma for higher Divine might, Dex for two weapon fighting, etc)

To-hit
+7 str
+3 divine favor
+4 evil outsiders
-5 power attack

total +9, 6 difference in favor of fighter. (Tossing an edit here: Seriously feel paladins should have a higher to-hit against EOs than this- This break down makes it painfully clear why)

Damage:
+7 str
+3 divine favor
+8 divine might
+5 power attack

total +23, 4 different in favor of fighter

Now factor in the other goodies (heres where things get interesting), KotC III is 4d6, that should average an extra 14 per hit, or +37 additional damage per hit when added with the previous numbers. Its 7d6 with the set items, for an extra average of 24(.5) per hit, so +47. Its 10d6 with the capstone (and the set), so an extra 35 per hit- or +58 extra damage per hit to an EO.

What am I missing?

This also completely ignores divine sacrifice which at its top tier does 9d6 damage on a 3 second cool down, or about 600 damage average per minute (which isnt a lot really, thats only about 10 extra dps, less than 20 with offhands hitting, but its nice icing on the cake), and (Exalted) smites- Which can really give a paladin some ridiculous burst-dps against say a single boss (assuming the paladin didnt waste them on trash along the way, or at least waste many)

Random food for thought, this only happens seldomly, so its knowledge is more of a fun/teehee factor than anything else. In those lovely moments where us 2wf'ing paladins land our zeal/off hand hits with our main on a divine sacrifice- we get an extra 57d6 for the attack. Neato.


Whoever reads this, please dont take this post the wrong way. Im sure im missing stuff- So please give us the details. I want to make this comparison as accurate as possible so, again, we can properly shed some holier-than-thou light on the subject when comparing the dps of a paladin to say, the fighter.

Well youre missing Fighter Attack Speed. Which is a big deal.

And with that consideration ultimately you make my point. Against EOs palys are comparable to barbs and fighters(not better). Against everything else they suck.

[grodon9999]

Well youre missing Fighter Attack Speed. Which is a big deal.

And with that consideration ultimately you make my point. Against EOs palys are comparable to barbs and fighters(not better). Against everything else they suck.

Hastes boosts are ubber. 99% of the content out there is short enough that you'll have enough boosts to get the job done with the boost remaining.

And they work on everything.

[Sidewaysgts86]

Well youre missing Fighter Attack Speed. Which is a big deal.

And with that consideration ultimately you make my point. Against EOs palys are comparable to barbs and fighters(not better). Against everything else they suck.

Haste boosts are indeed uber- But do they work in a way different than how I've been previously told? With a 30% fighter haste boost I was under the impression itd work out that in the time it took the paladin to do 100 strikes (Assuming same bab/attack style, of course) the fighter would do 130 strikes. IF this is true we can crunch some quick numbers:

27 extra damage per hit times 130 swings = +3510

For the paladins 58 extra damage per hit times 100 swings we get 5800 extra damage.

Do the mechanics not work this way? Or are we still missing more from the equation?

[FengXian]

As for the lv 18 wall, I agree, forget KotC, grab DoS and a Terror.

Dps is lower than fighters or barbs but you actually have a blue bar and all the other nice defensive stuff...even if an offensive PrE like Kningh of the Chalice makes you want to be somewhere close to a Barb's dps, you'd still have your spells, some fast self healing (at least LoH but even cure serious can be nice), moar saves (or just "saves") etc.

KotC and HotD indeed need some love but it should be just PrE-restricted, something like +5/+5 DF would be overpowered...especially if it worked with the PL one too

As a side note, I rolled a 12 paladin 6 ranger 2 monk AA for my pally past life, and dps was actually pretty high (with just DM2), while spike dps with manyshot, slayer arrows, 3x ranger PL, DMII, DF, damage boost IV being insane^^

And remember that Fighter = haste/damage boost, Paladin = divine sac/smite for dps is WRONG. Paladins can get damage boost too, and divine might which I think is very nice.

[jeremyt]

To the folks saying they are horrible to grind TR lives with. Just thought id say that in my experience it was a very smooth class to level and i felt barb was by far the worst with rage/UMD/clickie conflicts basically forcing me to play an unraged barbarian while leveling = gimp.

Granted i had very well sorted monk gear going into the paladin life so went a different route. But in the end it was easy to level and excelled as a raid tank of its day (tod and chrono, was thus far the best built toon ive tanked those raids with yet)

I went 15 hotd for zeal/ect. 3 monk for fist of light+2 feats+stances+wis to AC. 2 fighter for +1 str for 2 AP + haste boost + 2 feats.

With divine rightousness, bursting tod rings, wimpy ki strikes to cycle between divine sacs and smites, claw set and 'meh' wraps (was shintao my monk lives so had to revert to inferior boss beater wraps from shadow crypt while tanking to bypass DR) nothing ever took aggro, i had high 700's HP and MONSTER heal amp. And running as heal amp from monk + human + HotD (specially the third life) the non-meta powered cures would produce huge chunks of HP, and since I like trip air haste clickies (doubling up as a SP item for paladins) I could cast the non-metamagiced cures all day long. LoH always topped me off to full.

While leveling I consistently dominated quests solo or short-man, the immunities from HotD + the damage in all those undead XP farm quests was absolutely great. The introduction of ship buff resists took the teeth out of the paladin's ability to buff itself, but it still doesnt hurt, specially running with folks sans ship buffs or rebuffing after dings.

[karl_k0ch]

What am I missing?

First and foremost Haste Boost IV.

Assuming Human, both have Access to a Damage Boost, but only the fighter has a built-in Haste boost.

Additionally, Fighters have a higher to-hit (Higher Str, Weapon focus) and offer a party-wide DPS improvement via tactics: Stunning Blow and Improved Sunder. Paladins do have access to these as well, but they are tight on feats, and have worse DCs.