Does Pally DPS suck or is it just me?

[whomhead]

Here's my 2cents.

Oooh, great /popcorn potential right off the bat here.

Most people (75% or so) don't have either the patience, skills or knowledge of how to play a Paladin properly.

Yup... You've clearly got the corner on the market of effective paladin play. /popcorn

I'm 3rd life pure Paladin and I pwn kill counts and dps.

Moar /popcorn!!

I'm not high on myself or how powerful a Paladin can be.

O RLY?

I'm just aware of how capable they really are but sadly very few people are capable of running/building a Paladin in this manner.

Ya, RLY! No one else gets the paladin. They're so misunderstood.

I'm not interested in arguing about technique, logic, reason or anything for that matter.

So... no logic, reason, or technique. What is your point, exactly?

I blame the player for that, not the class.

You're saying that its not me, its you?

it's not that class the matters, it's how you use it

Friends don't let friends use paladins! I can't disagree with that.

[sweez]

I love people who use 'player skill' arguments in class vs. class discussions.

[Lifespawn]

I don't care what your toons look like on paper, that's the whole point you aren't getting through your head. People can build 'equal' toons on paper and they are all going to play differently. Some much better than others and yet a few that are heads above all of them. Starting to grasp the concept?

Hey I know what you're saying, trust me. I don't think you know what I'm saying though. Numbers aren't the deciding factor, a person's intelligence and ability are.

Using your reasoning I can say this....let me play your toon and you'll see how bad you really play this game. Starting to grasp it now? Gonna spout about how much more uber your builds are?? Stop wasting our time. If you think all players are created equal then you've lost the battle already.

lol your going to claim player skill over me post some accomplishments then something anything.

i could suck with a weak monk and you could be the bestest uber of the uber pally and you'd still lose the dps race because numbers don't lie your "skill" doesn't make you hit any harder starting to grasp how your clueless yet?

[eulogy098]

yes paladin dps sucks.


Even if you are KOTC (the ONLY DPS prestige paladins have) and fighting your ideal targets, you are still behind the curve.

Weight it out, simply put-

compare KOTC in it's ideal environment to, for example, Frenzy.

KOTC = 4d6 damage (that ONLY works on evil outsiders)
Frenzy = 6d6 damage (that works on everything) + 3x critical multiplier on 19-20s + 6strength


Here you have an overly specialized build thats actually doing far less damage then a completely general build. Makes perfect sense as long as you dont think about it.



Smites can be some of the most impressive single melee hits in the game, however their actual DPS contribution is not very impressive. The recharge is far to long, and the benefit to TWF over THF is monsterous.


Divine Sacrifice (with rank 1 really being the only rank that can be justified to invest in) offers too little and requires constant spamming just to get any increase of DPS at all.


Divine Might has far to long a cast time, and far too short a duration. I've not done the math but I would debate that if you cast it mid fight you may actually lose, if not completely wash, any dps gain you get.





Even if they "combined HOTD and KOTC" as ive seen suggested many, many times, paladins would still be lackluster.

[Lifespawn]

yes paladin dps sucks.


Even if you are KOTC (the ONLY DPS prestige paladins have) and fighting your ideal targets, you are still behind the curve.

Weight it out, simply put-

compare KOTC in it's ideal environment to, for example, Frenzy.

KOTC = 4d6 damage (that ONLY works on evil outsiders)
Frenzy = 6d6 damage (that works on everything) + 3x critical multiplier on 19-20s + 6strength


Here you have an overly specialized build thats actually doing far less damage then a completely general build. Makes perfect sense as long as you dont think about it.



Smites can be some of the most impressive single melee hits in the game, however their actual DPS contribution is not very impressive. The recharge is far to long, and the benefit to TWF over THF is monsterous.


Divine Sacrifice (with rank 1 really being the only rank that can be justified to invest in) offers too little and requires constant spamming just to get any increase of DPS at all.


Divine Might has far to long a cast time, and far too short a duration. I've not done the math but I would debate that if you cast it mid fight you may actually lose, if not completely wash, any dps gain you get.





Even if they "combined HOTD and KOTC" as ive seen suggested many, many times, paladins would still be lackluster.

don't use maths.11!!! daniel will be along shortly to let you know that it's just that you aren't any good at playing because pally is MOAR dps

[-Zyxas-]

yes paladin dps sucks.


Even if you are KOTC (the ONLY DPS prestige paladins have) and fighting your ideal targets, you are still behind the curve.

Weight it out, simply put-

compare KOTC in it's ideal environment to, for example, Frenzy.

KOTC = 4d6 damage (that ONLY works on evil outsiders)
Frenzy = 6d6 damage (that works on everything) + 3x critical multiplier on 19-20s + 6strength


Here you have an overly specialized build thats actually doing far less damage then a completely general build. Makes perfect sense as long as you dont think about it.



Smites can be some of the most impressive single melee hits in the game, however their actual DPS contribution is not very impressive. The recharge is far to long, and the benefit to TWF over THF is monsterous.


Divine Sacrifice (with rank 1 really being the only rank that can be justified to invest in) offers too little and requires constant spamming just to get any increase of DPS at all.


Divine Might has far to long a cast time, and far too short a duration. I've not done the math but I would debate that if you cast it mid fight you may actually lose, if not completely wash, any dps gain you get.





Even if they "combined HOTD and KOTC" as ive seen suggested many, many times, paladins would still be lackluster.

Benefit over TWF vs THF shouldn't be relevant in the discussion of Paladin as a class.
Besides, TWF needs a couple of perks... it loses on attack bonus (sure fine in easy content, but not fine at all on harder content), weapon choice, multiple stat dependency, AoE dps (and TWF isn't too much ahead in single-target dps, especially with bonus to hit issues), inventory space, popularity...

But your post, completely... Sure barbarians are supposed to hit stuff hard, but with how specialized paladins are, shouldn't there be balance somewhere?

EDIT: I think I remember seeing somewhere that for most damage bonuses, Divine Might III is worth rebuffing during a fight - not sure where I saw it or if that's right anymore.

[grodon9999]

But your post, completely... Sure barbarians are supposed to hit stuff hard, but with how specialized paladins are, shouldn't there be balance somewhere?

yes . . . and pallies do get a lot of non-DPS stuff that is very nice. The survivability is amazing, with the saves are crazy good and if you splash for evasion it's even better. The self-healing is great.

If Silverflame pots didn't exist this would all be balanced . . . but they do . . . so the game needs to be balanced with that in mind.

[sephiroth1084]

yes . . . and pallies do get a lot of non-DPS stuff that is very nice. The survivability is amazing, with the saves are crazy good and if you splash for evasion it's even better. The self-healing is great.

If Silverflame pots didn't exist this would all be balanced . . . but they do . . . so the game needs to be balanced with that in mind.

I don't think it's just the existence of Silver Flame pots, it's the turn the whole game has taken. How often do SF pots come into play outside of solo, short-man or challenge runs?
Compare that with the structure of the game now, where a premium is put on having someone along to heal, to how much HP enemies have and how important it is to kill things more quickly.

When you have a dedicated healer, or three, watching out for you, and there is a significant incentive to killing things quickly, characters with moderate DPS and high self-sufficiency become less important than those with high DPS and little or no self-sufficiency.

That's very true in raids, and somewhat true in 6-man runs, though for the latter just how much so is dependent upon what you're running and with whom.

Part of the problem with the paladin's perks is that they often tend to just not mean much, or require a very heavy outside investment to become an important factor. High saves don't mean a whole lot if you are being subject to dangers that don't allow a save, for one. The self-healing is split into two categories: Lay On Hands and self-cast Cure Moderate or Serious Wounds spells. LOH is very strong, but we have a limited number of uses, which cannot cover our needs from shrine to shrine or even through one or two big fights, and I'm not talking about epics, where simply trading blows with only one or two opponents can eat up all of your LOH if you are on your own. As for the Cure spells, without investing in feats just for these (Maximize, Empower Healing, Quicken), the spells don't really do much more than drinking CSW pots, and without some serious gear investment (Torc, Conc-Opp, Bauble, exceptional SP item, Wizardry or Archmagi item), you simply don't have enough SP to even make using these to save some coin by self-healing between fights to be a particularly attractive option. Then, if you do go all-in on the self-healing, you end up with weaker DPS, and still don't have quite the sustainability to be free from the need of a separate healer for tough fights or long fights. All of that investment, and you're still not that better off than any other melee.

My paladin has AC, okay DPS (Power Attack, 44 Str with some DPS gear on and an ESoS), Maximize and Quicken, and he isn't free from needing a healer around. Sure, I can handle fighting some trash in epics solo while the rest of the party is occupied elsewhere, but I'm on a relatively short clock for how long that can be sustained. He can look after himself completely when tanking Sulu in ToD normal with a good group, can do it for a little while in ToD or VoD on hard or elite, but not for very long. He can a little in LoB, but not much due to Mournlands causing spell failure, and if he's AC tanking, the 2x spell cost of Combat Expertise bleeds his mana pool dry very quickly when casting Maximized and Quickened CSW (120 SP per cast).

After considering all of the above, the presence of SF pots that heal for as much or more than my self-cast spells with zero investment beyond inventory space and some platinum merely emphasizes the poor return on the investment.

There are a lot of ways to make the paladin's survival features more attractive, but I don't see any of them happening. Some include:

• giving paladins bonus feats so that they don't have to sacrifice DPS so heavily in order to make their other abilities worth using.
• giving paladins free Empower Healing-like abilities (maybe just make their Devotion line much stronger).
• enhancing paladin DPS options so that investing in self-healing and AC doesn't hurt them so much.
• weakening healing for everyone a bit so that some emphasis on defense and self-sustainability becomes more important in the game.
• creating more situations where having one or two self-sustaining characters in a group are desirable, though it's likely those situations will end up simply favoring caster-heavy make-ups.

[Fensen]

I concur (again) that paladins lag behind other melees. I enjoy my paladin, but my fighter far outstrips him in dps. Both are TR's, both are human, both are TWF, both swing similar greensteel khopeshes, but the fighter easily outstrips the paladin by 15 damage per hit, or about 30 dps. As a practical matter, the dps difference really makes little impact until the level 16 and higher quests. But still, it would be nice to see some method of balancing the performance.

There have been plenty of suggestions of how to improve pally dps (more/faster smiting, special damage to all evil, not just EOs, more feats, etc...). Any of those would be good.

There also is the line of thought that paladins are supposed to be more defense centered than the raw dps of fighters and barbarians. This could be interesting to pursue. A paladin feat that allows the CHA modifier to be added to AC as well as saves, enhancements to give 5/10/15/20 stacking dr, some way to be able to use a shield AND get the same benefits of using a THW (bastard sword, I am trying to get you some love), improved auras giving the entire group the same + to AC and saves as the paladin, as examples.

Of course, a pure defense character in this game is next to useless without dps ability. In groups the combat moves too fast for the purely defensive benefits to completely make up for a lack of dps; solo needs decent dps to complete. I do not think paladins should be able to do all of the raw damage of a figher or barbarian; paladins are a more nuanced class with its main benefits lying elsewhere. So a balance of improvements to palaldins incorporating a bit more dps and more defense bonuses would be my solution.

[Thrudh]

yes . . . and pallies do get a lot of non-DPS stuff that is very nice. The survivability is amazing, with the saves are crazy good and if you splash for evasion it's even better. The self-healing is great.

If Silverflame pots didn't exist this would all be balanced . . . but they do . . . so the game needs to be balanced with that in mind.

This.

Silverflame potions break the balance.

Either get rid of silverflame potions or give rangers and paladins a ton more DPS.

[Thrudh]

I don't think it's just the existence of Silver Flame pots, it's the turn the whole game has taken. How often do SF pots come into play outside of solo, short-man or challenge runs?
Compare that with the structure of the game now, where a premium is put on having someone along to heal, to how much HP enemies have and how important it is to kill things more quickly.

When you have a dedicated healer, or three, watching out for you, and there is a significant incentive to killing things quickly, characters with moderate DPS and high self-sufficiency become less important than those with high DPS and little or no self-sufficiency.

That's very true in raids, and somewhat true in 6-man runs, though for the latter just how much so is dependent upon what you're running and with whom.

Good point... We need more raids where people have to split up, where self-sufficiency becomes more important. My healing dragonmarked ranger/wizard (back when the cap was 16) sucked at DPS, but he was immensely self-sufficient.

In Elite Hound, he was pretty amazing. That was one raid where max DPS didn't matter. When the beholders came out, and people lost their buffs, he had no problems taking down the mobs and keeping himself alive, even out in the outer ring. Most barbarians either died, or had to stay near the center clerics, screaming for heals (which were slow to come, since the clerics were concentrating on the dogs).

[grodon9999]

[*]weakening healing for everyone a bit so that some emphasis on defense and self-sustainability becomes more important in the game.

Silverflame pots are the root of this evil.

[grodon9999]

In Elite Hound, he was pretty amazing. That was one raid where max DPS didn't matter. When the beholders came out, and people lost their buffs, he had no problems taking down the mobs and keeping himself alive, even out in the outer ring. Most barbarians either died, or had to stay near the center clerics, screaming for heals (which were slow to come, since the clerics were concentrating on the dogs).

Max DPS-tards are always amusing in hound

[karl_k0ch]

I'd like to see a healing amplification line on paladins. I know that HotD offers some, but I still think that more of that wouldn't hurt.

[grodon9999]

I'd like to see a healing amplification line on paladins. I know that HotD offers some, but I still think that more of that wouldn't hurt.

Why? That addresses a problem that doesn't exist.

[Sarisa]

I feel a big part of it is that Pali's don't have much available to them to boost up their sustained DPS, aside from Divine Sacrifice and Divine Might. They have great survival, good defenses, great hate amplification, and decent burst (but Smites aren't as strong as other burst effects like Manyshot or Endless Fusillade).

I sadly feel that if my Cleric has the same weapons and same melee feats, she could do similar sustained DPS.

[karl_k0ch]

Why? That addresses a problem that doesn't exist.

You are right. That does not solve the DPS problem directly. But then, it's a similar suggestion as this one:

giving paladins free Empower Healing-like abilities (maybe just make their Devotion line much stronger).

I was basically thinking this: If paladins can self-heal just fine without needing to take Maximize and/or Emp Heal, they have more feats for DPS.
Also: Good Hate + Good Healing Amp = Good Tank. (Assuming that the paladin in question hits on a 2.)

[grodon9999]

I feel a big part of it is that Pali's don't have much available to them to boost up their sustained DPS, aside from Divine Sacrifice and Divine Might. They have great survival, good defenses, great hate amplification, and decent burst (but Smites aren't as strong as other burst effects like Manyshot or Endless Fusillade).

I sadly feel that if my Cleric has the same weapons and same melee feats, she could do similar sustained DPS.

The light-resistance on mobs like the LOB ****es me off. FvS get these over-powered DOTs . . . so a pally gets his only DPS ability that works on the LOB completely neutered.

Sigh . . .

[sephiroth1084]

Silverflame pots are the root of this evil.

Definitely not. The efficiency and strength of healing in DDO is the root of this problem.

Look at the way much of the content is approached: we simply bully our way through the challenges presented, leaning on a life-line of healing to buoy us. The power and prevalence of Heal scrolls worsens this, but isn't the ultimate issue. Ditto for mana pots.

I don't know what could be done to make healing in general a little weaker without making playing a divine, bard or artificer (and soon a druid) positively nightmarish, but that seems like something that needs to be looked at.

There has been some recently development that addresses this, with things like LoB and MA posing chaotic situations where healing is likely to get spread-out and become less efficient, and where simply auto-attacking with Mass Heal simply won't cut it, but those situations are scarce, and the "solutions" in the aforementioned raids come with the additional results of making it more difficult to play a healer and much more expensive. For one thing, I'd like to see Heal scrolls removed from the stores, or given a cap on how many can be carried at any one time, a long cooldown or some other mechanic attached to mana pots, and content rebalanced to assume clerics and favored souls in a solid group will be able to get through a smooth run without having to dip into outside resources.

Heal scrolls and mana pots should be In Case of Emergency items, not the things upon which we are leaning to solve content. Start there, and classes with weaker, secondary healing will see a rise in the value of their abilities.

[grodon9999]

You are right. That does not solve the DPS problem directly. But then, it's a similar suggestion as this one:


I was basically thinking this: If paladins can self-heal just fine without needing to take Maximize and/or Emp Heal, they have more feats for DPS.
Also: Good Hate + Good Healing Amp = Good Tank. (Assuming that the paladin in question hits on a 2.)

Pallies are already FANTASTIC tanks though, they don't really need any love in that regard.