Does Pally DPS suck or is it just me?

[grodon9999]

The only time fighters really end up with better AC is when a paladin is standing next to them.

Yeah, you're right and he's wrong. Fighter will get more if the pally is there . . . but other than part 1 in ToD when the heck else would you bring two defender builds?

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, you're right and he's wrong. Fighter will get more if the pally is there . . . but other than part 1 in ToD when the heck else would you bring two defender builds?

Which was mostly my point. It does happen, but it's A) unlikely, and B) when it does occur, it usually involves the two tanks being far apart, not close together.

ToD 1 and 3 are the best examples of places where having 2 defenders can be worthwhile, but both tend to involve the defenders at opposite ends of the room.

[elraido]

Which was mostly my point. It does happen, but it's A) unlikely, and B) when it does occur, it usually involves the two tanks being far apart, not close together.

ToD 1 and 3 are the best examples of places where having 2 defenders can be worthwhile, but both tend to involve the defenders at opposite ends of the room.

Another time is when, just for fun, I could take Suli in VoD, and just run around the room with him chasing me, all the while I am screaming. The other tank then could try and pull the aggro off of me. Only to have me yell nasty things about his mother and have him chase me again. I should try that sometime.

[Aaxeyu]

How?

Paladins get +6 AC from their aura + Bulwark IV + DoS.
Fighters get +6 AC from SD + FAM III.
Fighters can better afford to take all of Dodge, Mobility, Fighter PL, Combat Expertise, but that is only likely +3 AC over a paladin.

The only time fighters really end up with better AC is when a paladin is standing next to them.

The way I read this: Fighters have likely +3 AC over paladins, but they don't really have better AC.
That doesn't make any sense

[elraido]

One thing that makes it easier for fighters is they can fit in dex easier to their builds.

[grodon9999]

One thing that makes it easier for fighters is they can fit in dex easier to their builds.

And multiple toughness feats.

And multiple INTIM feats.

And maxed out toughness enhancements.

And Weapon specialization.

It's a balance, DOS has some advantages and stalwarts others.

[sephiroth1084]

The way I read this: Fighters have likely +3 AC over paladins, but they don't really have better AC.
That doesn't make any sense

Fighters can maybe have 3 more AC. A paladin could decide to take those feats despite their lack of bonus feats, just as a fighter may prioritize something else over those marginal gains. When you're a defender trying to balance HP, intimidate, AC, DPS, threat and possibly self-healing, some things just don't fit.

Plus, the fighter will need to get a lot more Dex than the paladin in order to make a lot of that at all meaningful, which is another consideration, which is why I phrased it as I did.

It's a balance, DOS has some advantages and stalwarts others.

Unfortunately, the way I see it is that Stalwarts are better than DoS, but it is largely a wash between paladins and fighters.

DoS offers quite a bit less than SD does and costs a lot more. Hopefully at least some of this will get addressed with the enhancement pass.

[elraido]

DoS offers quite a bit less than SD does and costs a lot more. Hopefully at least some of this will get addressed with the enhancement pass.

I agree. The 6 dr that a fighter gets EASILY outweighs the +3 on saves a paladin gets. The thing I don't understand is, why would a paladin need even MORE on saves? I can hit a 70+ on my fort, and mid 50's on my other two. If anything those should be reversed....the fighters get the saves and Paladins get the DR

[grodon9999]

Unfortunately, the way I see it is that Stalwarts are better than DoS, but it is largely a wash between paladins and fighters.

DoS offers quite a bit less than SD does and costs a lot more. Hopefully at least some of this will get addressed with the enhancement pass.

Do you play both? I do right now so I'm still evaluating.

My fighter definitely does more damage, I can take him in a raid in a non-tanking role and not feel like I'm piking. More HP and more intim potential, room for Shield Mastery, etc . . .

My pally puts out a lot of threat (more I have no idea, but with divine righteousness probably) and has ridiculous saves, I'm fairly convinced should could have healed herself in Elite TOD last night when she was tanking Sulu. Even with the lower HP, more survivable.

Better? I'm not sure. If I was doing a speed run of Elite ToD I'd bring my fighter. If the group was questionable I'd want the pally.

What I like about fighter is you don't have to completely gimp it to be a tank. Some of the tanking pally builds I've seen posted lately which have the intim for ELOB couldn't hurt a fly, had to dump almost all DPS stuff for stuff like dragon marks. A fighter has more feat room and can get to those levels of threat/intim and still actually be able to hurt things.

Threats the most important thing on a tank, but actual DPS also matters.

[elraido]

I have been kind of harping on this since the start of the game. In PnP, one of the main things a paladin has is his Celestial Warhorse. IIRC, with the right feats taken they basically can work up to being able to deliver a x8 crit with a lance while on the horse. Also able to knock down bad guys, do damage, take damage that the paladin normally would, it was an extremely useful DPS dealer and damage mitigator addition to the Paladin. They never transfered that into this game. I think that is one reason why the Paladin is currently lacking vs the fighter. The fighter was easier to take over from PnP....some of the more complex things from the paladin just aren't there or aren't scaling right as the power creep is coming into play.

[nomaddog]

When I went paladin first life, I was rather suprised with the amount of damage it didn't do. Honestly, I hated playing my pally up until about lvl 18. Was KotC, but found out like OP that it doesn't do much against non-EOs. So, switched to DoS when they made the changes and was MUCH happier with the way she played. Damage was still meh, but the extra hp made for a decent trade.

[justagame]

I have been kind of harping on this since the start of the game. In PnP, one of the main things a paladin has is his Celestial Warhorse. IIRC, with the right feats taken they basically can work up to being able to deliver a x8 crit with a lance while on the horse. Also able to knock down bad guys, do damage, take damage that the paladin normally would, it was an extremely useful DPS dealer and damage mitigator addition to the Paladin. They never transfered that into this game. I think that is one reason why the Paladin is currently lacking vs the fighter. The fighter was easier to take over from PnP....some of the more complex things from the paladin just aren't there or aren't scaling right as the power creep is coming into play.

I completely agree. It doesn't matter of the mechanism is a warhorse/lance (admittedly difficult to implement), but the idea of a Paladin was fearsome burst dps against evil foes, and solid ability to mitigate damage. The so-called burst dps is near-meaningless at endgame, the damage mitigation just isn't there either.

[sephiroth1084]

I agree. The 6 dr that a fighter gets EASILY outweighs the +3 on saves a paladin gets. The thing I don't understand is, why would a paladin need even MORE on saves? I can hit a 70+ on my fort, and mid 50's on my other two. If anything those should be reversed....the fighters get the saves and Paladins get the DR

The DR 6/- is rather trivial, honestly. Most epic armors come with DR 5/something, and bards can give DR 5/-. Would it be nice to have that on DoS? Sure, but not a big deal.

I'm more concerned with the fact that SD gains an extra passive 3 AC, and +6 Intimidate (the latter of which is what I really miss on my paladin), while paladins gain +1 to their Aura (+1 AC, +1 saves, still benefits SDs more if they are together), some semi-useless spell clickies that burn the ever-important turn attempts, and Glorious Stand, which is awesome, but clunky, and rarely used.

Do you play both? I do right now so I'm still evaluating.

My fighter definitely does more damage, I can take him in a raid in a non-tanking role and not feel like I'm piking. More HP and more intim potential, room for Shield Mastery, etc . . .

My pally puts out a lot of threat (more I have no idea, but with divine righteousness probably) and has ridiculous saves, I'm fairly convinced should could have healed herself in Elite TOD last night when she was tanking Sulu. Even with the lower HP, more survivable.

Better? I'm not sure. If I was doing a speed run of Elite ToD I'd bring my fighter. If the group was questionable I'd want the pally.

What I like about fighter is you don't have to completely gimp it to be a tank. Some of the tanking pally builds I've seen posted lately which have the intim for ELOB couldn't hurt a fly, had to dump almost all DPS stuff for stuff like dragon marks. A fighter has more feat room and can get to those levels of threat/intim and still actually be able to hurt things.

Threats the most important thing on a tank, but actual DPS also matters.

I TR'ed my paladin into a pure fighter for a life before going back to paladin to pick up the past life and specifically to gain a better sense of the strengths and weaknesses of the two.

The fighter felt like he had less burst DPS, but better overall DPS, much lower survivability (didn't have Silver Flame pots, but then I don't like the idea of taking -5 AC, saves and Intimidate when you're on the ropes while tanking). The final paladin version has a positively easy time gaining and holding aggro, rarely fails a save of any kind, and has self-cast Quickened 200-point Maximizes in addition to 4 LoH and Unyielding Sovereignty. Mind you, I did all that before the stances got buffed, but the comparisons hold mostly true. The fighter version didn't end up with much more HP than the paladin did anyway, since I spent the extra feats on DPS instead of taking Toughness another 6 times.

My paladin could get to Epic LoB tanking Intimidate if I I wanted to get there, and without being a total gimp. That is, I don't have any DPS feats besides Power Attack and Improved Critical, but I've got a Str that gets up to 45 (where is that ****ing +3 tome already!?) in DPS mode, stays at 40/42 in AC mode, and has okay intimidate. The problem is that I had to choose, for now, between giving my paladin the Epic Gloves of the Claw for the +5 intimidate, which I'd really only wear while Epic LoB tanking and non-AC trash fighting, while the barb will wear them full-time, and i'd have to drop 1 AC by moving 4 AP from Bulwark IV into four ranks of Improved Intimidate, and then I'd still only get it when fully buffs.

Right now:
23 ranks
10 Cha (includes ship buff and Yugo pot)
4 Gh
6 Cha skills item
2 Fighter PL
20 Epic Brawn's
2 luck
____
67

Needs:
5 Epic Claw
4 LGS tower (have it, haven't crafted it yet)
4 Improved Intim enhancements
2 Barb PL
____
82

Had been debating about the gloves, but just made them for my barb. So now I have to hunt sound a second set. Not having the feats to spare for Dragonmarks, Skill Focus, or Bullheaded, and not having the +6 Intim from the PrE hurts, but doesn't handicap.

[grodon9999]

The DR 6/- is rather trivial, honestly. Most epic armors come with DR 5/something, and bards can give DR 5/-. Would it be nice to have that on DoS? Sure, but not a big deal.

I'm more concerned with the fact that SD gains an extra passive 3 AC, and +6 Intimidate (the latter of which is what I really miss on my paladin), while paladins gain +1 to their Aura (+1 AC, +1 saves, still benefits SDs more if they are together), some semi-useless spell clickies that burn the ever-important turn attempts, and Glorious Stand, which is awesome, but clunky, and rarely used.


I TR'ed my paladin into a pure fighter for a life before going back to paladin to pick up the past life and specifically to gain a better sense of the strengths and weaknesses of the two.

The fighter felt like he had less burst DPS, but better overall DPS, much lower survivability (didn't have Silver Flame pots, but then I don't like the idea of taking -5 AC, saves and Intimidate when you're on the ropes while tanking). The final paladin version has a positively easy time gaining and holding aggro, rarely fails a save of any kind, and has self-cast Quickened 200-point Maximizes in addition to 4 LoH and Unyielding Sovereignty. Mind you, I did all that before the stances got buffed, but the comparisons hold mostly true. The fighter version didn't end up with much more HP than the paladin did anyway, since I spent the extra feats on DPS instead of taking Toughness another 6 times.

My paladin could get to Epic LoB tanking Intimidate if I I wanted to get there, and without being a total gimp. That is, I don't have any DPS feats besides Power Attack and Improved Critical, but I've got a Str that gets up to 45 (where is that ****ing +3 tome already!?) in DPS mode, stays at 40/42 in AC mode, and has okay intimidate. The problem is that I had to choose, for now, between giving my paladin the Epic Gloves of the Claw for the +5 intimidate, which I'd really only wear while Epic LoB tanking and non-AC trash fighting, while the barb will wear them full-time, and i'd have to drop 1 AC by moving 4 AP from Bulwark IV into four ranks of Improved Intimidate, and then I'd still only get it when fully buffs.

Right now:
23 ranks
10 Cha (includes ship buff and Yugo pot)
4 Gh
6 Cha skills item
2 Fighter PL
20 Epic Brawn's
2 luck
____
67

Needs:
5 Epic Claw
4 LGS tower (have it, haven't crafted it yet)
4 Improved Intim enhancements
2 Barb PL
____
82

Had been debating about the gloves, but just made them for my barb. So now I have to hunt sound a second set. Not having the feats to spare for Dragonmarks, Skill Focus, or Bullheaded, and not having the +6 Intim from the PrE hurts, but doesn't handicap.

See . . . I'm not sure if I want to invest that much in Intim gear on this girls while she's in her stay-over life as a pally. But I COULD get . . .

Intim
23 Ranks
4 GH
2 Luck
6 GS Item
4 ENH
12 CHR
20 item
2 Coin Lord
3 Dragon Mark and 1 AP
3 SF
4 LGA
83

Without the claw set. it would require a feat setup like . . .

1 Least Sentinel Dragon mark
3 Toughness
6 ITWF
9 IC: Piercing (She's a Rapier User)
12 GTWF
15 SF: Intimidate
18 Shield Mastery


Human TWF

Monk 1 Power Attack
Monk 2 Combat Expertise

So I could hit it without Claw. She's already got 3 Piece Abisahi and in her "final" life I'm not planning on her being an aggro-magnet.

With this feat setup I'd lose some self-healing, but so what? It's still a hell of a lot better than what a fighter has.

Still need a Brawn's seal so I have time to ponder.

[sephiroth1084]

I forgot about the Coin Lords. Hmm...I may actually have more Intim than I realized...

As for investing...I'm not thrilled about the Claw Gloves thing, but otherwise I'm not investing much specifically. I wanted Brawn's for several reasons, and want to slot it with Good Luck anyway. The large augment shield replaces whatever else I'd be using on epic anyway, since AC won't matter. Sure, I'd prefer the tier II bonus from an alchemical shield, but a Cannith crafted one won't be bad.

Probably put Life Shield and Fire Absorption on it for epic LoB tanking.

[voodoogroves]

Just wanted to chime in here again and thank you guys for completely destroying my motivation to level this TR through his pally life ;-)


In all honesty though, I'm going to do it - but deep splash. I can't stomach it as is.

[dean.rys]

I've been running my 3rd life as a full Pally. At lvl 17 right now and its playable.

My past 2 lives were fighter and barb respectively, so maybe the past lives help out with my dps because its not as bad as I expected it to be.

I will say that one area that needs to be improved are the auras.

When I think of a paladin, its a becon of holy might... Boosting morale and determination of the party. I think of them almost as useful as a bard in that respect, but of course that's not how they're built in DDO.

[Malky]

but other than part 1 in ToD when the heck else would you bring two defender builds?

I could see a use in e-LoB speed runs (<- means no mournlands clearing, hence avoiding mournlands altogether is important) : depending on who's dpsing one tank may have some trouble holding aggro with only shield bash & intims so bring two of them, have the lord bounce between them and barbs can keep on swinging the whole time.

[grodon9999]

I could see a use in e-LoB speed runs (<- means no mournlands clearing, hence avoiding mournlands altogether is important) : depending on who's dpsing one tank may have some trouble holding aggro with only shield bash & intims so bring two of them, have the lord bounce between them and barbs can keep on swinging the whole time.

We do that, but AC don't work there so the point is moot.

[svinja]

I take back what I said about pallies having bad HP, just got my TR to 18 so I converted him back to DoS and put on the gear and suddenly he jumped from 500 to 700+ HP I hadn't realized stance had been changed, that is literally the best change they could have made to tanking paladins.

Also, my wrist is thankful for the removal of the speed penalty on defensive stance, no more constant tumbling.

With how bad the other two PrEs are, and the removal of DoS run speed penalty, there is little reason to be KotC or HotD now lol. Fortunately for me DoS is what I intended in the first place.