Rate my tank!

[Varashad]

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Level 20 Lawful Neutral Human Male
(18 Fighter \ 2 Monk) 
Hit Points: 405
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 12
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             17                    28
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence         11                    13
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             10                    12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    26
Bluff                 0                     1
Concentration         3                     5
Diplomacy             0                     1
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                0                     1
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            2                    34
Jump                  7                    14
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     1
Spot                  3                    11
Swim                  3                     9
Tumble                6                     7
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Bash


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender III
Enhancement: Fighter Bastard Sword Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Bastard Sword Specialization II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III

Stats:
Strength: 17 Base + 5 levels +4 enhancements +7 item +6 stance, +3 exceptional +2 Yugoloth +2 ship buffs +2 tome = 48

Constitution: 16 base +2 tome +7 item +3 exceptional +2 yugoloth +6 stance +2 ship = 38

Hitpoints: 180 fighter + 16 monk + 20 heroic durability +10 argo favor + 380 constitution + 55 enhancements + 44 toughness feats +20 yugopots +45 green steel +20 Toughness item +40 superior false life = 830*20% = 996

Armor Class: I haven't ran the numbers for this yet since I don't know what gear I'm shooting for yet. If anyone has numbers lying around for armor class I'd love to see it. I hear you need about 80-95 for it to be useful, and I can get mine up to about 55 or so on my paladin. Any help would be loved.

Saves: Also haven't done the checking.

Gear: Once again, haven't decided.

Rules: Please do not advise me to use +3/+4 tomes. I will use them if I find them, but because of their rarity, I cannot except to see any. My feat/enhancement picks are my biggest concerns. I would greatly appreciate someone giving me advice on these.

My hope here was to create a very sturdy hate/AC tank that could make normally difficult boss fights into easy skirmishes, while maintaining reasonable DPS, keep a high hitpoints score(I'm 4 off my desired 1000 T_T) and be able to avoid 90% of all reflex based damage through Evasion and a decent dexterity score.

Thanks in advance ladies and gents! I'm eagerly looking forward to your posts.

[Moltier]

I had to rewrite the post... stupid log out issue.

Anyway, your HP would be less, coz "only" 280hp from con (not 380).

THF is better then TWF is you use bastard sword, plus it cost 1 less feats.
But of course fun>effectiveness, so if you like TWF style more, go with it.

If you want high AC, you want dodge and mobility too.

Also your combat DCs will be just moderate. 42-47 if maxed. I wouldt force it, except with improved sunder.

[Denegrator]

rate? F-

[Miahoo]

You forgot an important (if not the most) issue: Healing Amp!

With high healing amp you give your divines the ability to keep you up with scrolls, saving them alot of sp (and also can be healed by a bard/rog alone).
I once healed a horoth tank using 0 SP, keeping him up with scrolls and fvs capstone.

I see you took the human line, which is great! but what about the monk line? iirc, 2 monk will give u 10%, which is alot!
What about equip? getting all 10%, 20% and 30% healing amp equip will give you ~400hp with heal scroll, with silverflame pots they give you the ability to be a self sufficient tank w/o the depended of a healer.

[Teharahma]

You forgot an important (if not the most) issue: Healing Amp!

With high healing amp you give your divines the ability to keep you up with scrolls, saving them alot of sp (and also can be healed by a bard/rog alone).
I once healed a horoth tank using 0 SP, keeping him up with scrolls and fvs capstone.

I see you took the human line, which is great! but what about the monk line? iirc, 2 monk will give u 10%, which is alot!
What about equip? getting all 10%, 20% and 30% healing amp equip will give you ~400hp with heal scroll, with silverflame pots they give you the ability to be a self sufficient tank w/o the depended of a healer.

3 Monk will do that for you.


Also, OP; if you plan on using TWF, why not try and get WIS a little higher, higher TWF AC. (Well, when not wearing armor.)

[Miahoo]

3 Monk will do that for you.

In this case, I'd consider taking 3 monk (or more). Yes, you lose the fighter last pre tier, but you'll get more amp and also a path (light will give you the ability to anti-stun yourself during horoth tanking).

btw, why didnt you go helf? cleric dilly would give ya self heal scrolls and raise scrolls. rog would give ya SA (wont do much while tanking, but would help for DPS when not tanking and to retake aggro).

[Varashad]

I had to rewrite the post... stupid log out issue.

Anyway, your HP would be less, coz "only" 280hp from con (not 380).

THF is better then TWF is you use bastard sword, plus it cost 1 less feats.
But of course fun>effectiveness, so if you like TWF style more, go with it.

If you want high AC, you want dodge and mobility too.

Also your combat DCs will be just moderate. 42-47 if maxed. I wouldt force it, except with improved sunder.

280 hp? Ahhh yes, you're right. I did constitution*20/2 or something. So about 880-900 hp max. It's not a huge issue.

It's more about flavor; I know THFing is better for bastard swords, but I figure that if half the people in my party aren't max geared, then it won't matter much.

Dodge + Mobility are feats I completely forgot about. I normally don't even look at these feats, but since AC is useful on a tank, I suppose I should look at them. What of my feats would you trade these for?

I'm not worried about my combat DCs. Stun will end up being traded for either Toughness, or Dodge at level 20. Trip is more for knocking down the odd monster, but I might also trade this out for Mobility or something.

rate? F-

Please elaborate.

You forgot an important (if not the most) issue: Healing Amp!

With high healing amp you give your divines the ability to keep you up with scrolls, saving them alot of sp (and also can be healed by a bard/rog alone).
I once healed a horoth tank using 0 SP, keeping him up with scrolls and fvs capstone.

I see you took the human line, which is great! but what about the monk line? iirc, 2 monk will give u 10%, which is alot!
What about equip? getting all 10%, 20% and 30% healing amp equip will give you ~400hp with heal scroll, with silverflame pots they give you the ability to be a self sufficient tank w/o the depended of a healer.

I have plenty of healing amp actually. Humans can be easily healed, and the only way I can get more is to splash more monk, which costs me 5% hp and +2 strength/constitution and 1 AC, or to be half-elf and take the monk dilly. Since half-elves only get tier 2 human healing amp, this is a net gain of only 10% healing amp, but I'd have to use 5 ability points to get 13 wisdom base. It's not worth doing imo, just for an extra 3d6 situational damage. With 20%(ToD ring), 30%(eClaw) and human line, I should heal just fine. Finger necklace + Dragon Touched for incredibly dangerous moments.

3 Monk will do that for you.


Also, OP; if you plan on using TWF, why not try and get WIS a little higher, higher TWF AC. (Well, when not wearing armor.)

Because the benefit from wisdom is so minor mostly. It only gives me better AC and will saves, and then only while "centered." I have to wield monk weapons(Kama, staves, unarmed) and wear robes/outfits in order to be centered. The monk splash is taken only for evasion, balance as a class skill, skill points at level 1, and the extra feats.

In this case, I'd consider taking 3 monk (or more). Yes, you lose the fighter last pre tier, but you'll get more amp and also a path (light will give you the ability to anti-stun yourself during horoth tanking).

btw, why didnt you go helf? cleric dilly would give ya self heal scrolls and raise scrolls. rog would give ya SA (wont do much while tanking, but would help for DPS when not tanking and to retake aggro).

I'd go with half-elf but I'd just end up with rogue dilletante, a few less skill points, 10% less healing amp and one less feat. It's not worth it in my opinion just for a bit more damage. I won't do cleric because of the expensive build point investment required. Besides, with my hp total and AC I should be able to rely on a hireling or player cleric to keep me vertical.

[Teharahma]

Because the benefit from wisdom is so minor mostly. It only gives me better AC and will saves, and then only while "centered." I have to wield monk weapons(Kama, staves, unarmed) and wear robes/outfits in order to be centered. The monk splash is taken only for evasion, balance as a class skill, skill points at level 1, and the extra feats.

You still get Wisdom to AC bonus even when uncentered using Khopeshes, you will need to wear cloth, but Icy Raiment is a very viable option. This also removes the need for all those Maximum Dex Bonus enhancements n stuff.

[Varashad]

You still get Wisdom to AC bonus even when uncentered using Khopeshes, you will need to wear cloth, but Icy Raiment is a very viable option. This also removes the need for all those Maximum Dex Bonus enhancements n stuff.

Really now? That's new information to me! Can I still get the Wisdom bonus with a shield equipped?

[Teharahma]

In this case, I'd consider taking 3 monk (or more). Yes, you lose the fighter last pre tier, but you'll get more amp and also a path (light will give you the ability to anti-stun yourself during horoth tanking).

btw, why didnt you go helf? cleric dilly would give ya self heal scrolls and raise scrolls. rog would give ya SA (wont do much while tanking, but would help for DPS when not tanking and to retake aggro).

And this is just bad advice.
10% healing amp over 1 ac, 2str, 2con, 5% more HP and a feat loss from 18th Fighter level.

If you are that desperate for healing amp roll a 18fighter2mnk half-elf with Monk dilly.

[Teharahma]

Really now? That's new information to me! Can I still get the Wisdom bonus with a shield equipped?

Sadly no, but seeing as with or without shield the AC will remain mostly the same, its all a matter of what you are facing, enough AC for Horoth ? TWF. not enough AC, grab a shield for the damage mitigation.

Edit;
The wisdom to AC makes the Exploiter build viable, using TWF with non-monk weapons and still getting that bonus.

[Varashad]

Sadly no, but seeing as with or without shield the AC will remain mostly the same, its all a matter of what you are facing, enough AC for Horoth ? TWF. not enough AC, grab a shield for the damage mitigation.

Edit;
The wisdom to AC makes the Exploiter build viable, using TWF with non-monk weapons and still getting that bonus.

The AC will remain the same? How exactly? Doesn't Levik's Defender provide +12 or so to AC? The wiki says, with a +4 dex modifier, I can pick up 9+4 = 13; I would need 36 dexterity to get the same result without a shield. Is that even possible on a non-dexterity based build?

[Teharahma]

The AC will remain the same? How exactly? Doesn't Levik's Defender provide +12 or so to AC? The wiki says, with a +4 dex modifier, I can pick up 9+4 = 13; I would need 36 dexterity to get the same result without a shield. Is that even possible on a non-dexterity based build?

15dex +6item +3tome +2ship +2exc +2yugo = 30

But what you are forgetting is wisdom. Wisdom also increases AC when you're not wearing a shield and armor.

Levik's will have a max dex bonus of, i think, 10 with all enhancements ? So the 30dex is not used for AC in this calculation.

Max wis would be;
15wis +6item +3tome +1enhancement +2ship +2yugo +1exc (slotted somewhere on gear) = 30 = +10AC from wisdom, seeing as you get 9 from the shield (without the dex), you gain 1 AC, then, using a shield wand, you could increase your AC by another 4, resulting in a gain of 5AC

Now if you take TWFDefense, it would increase your AC by another 1. Seeing as you are a fighter I'm pretty sure you could fit it in.


Edit;

Now it seems if you wear the best plate avaible for AC, Epic Cavalry Plate you would gain 16 Armor bonus. This is 8 over any bracers you could get. Lets use Epic Scorched Bracers.

8AC +4dodge (icy raiment) = 12
However, you would gain 6 AC due to TWF over S&B, resulting in 18 over 16, gaining 2 AC.

With this calculation I forgot to use the Max Dex bonus on the Plate, but seeing as it would be a negative for the AC with armor instead of Icy Raiment I'd say I made my point.




Now if you really want even more AC, consider picking up Longswords and Whirling Steel Strike, this would allow you to go into water stance, granting you another +2 AC, (+1 due to +2wis, and +1 dodge bonus stacking from stance)

However this is a bad idea, because your DPS will suffer :'D

[grodon9999]

. Is that even possible on a non-dexterity based build?

yes

[Teharahma]

yes

Hey junk, you better check my calculations, I might've made some errors :'D

[Denegrator]

Please elaborate.

No.

It looks ok, plenty of good feedback. I'd up the wisdom by 2 points initially on the base stats for 10 base.

[DragonMageT]

Drop a toughness feat and pick up Barb Past Life feat.

-2 hp but you gain +2 Intimated.

What Intim level are wanting to reach and what is going to be your weapon(s) of choice ?
EFang since you are taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword ?

[Varashad]

15dex +6item +3tome +2ship +2exc +2yugo = 30

But what you are forgetting is wisdom. Wisdom also increases AC when you're not wearing a shield and armor.

Levik's will have a max dex bonus of, i think, 10 with all enhancements ? So the 30dex is not used for AC in this calculation.

Max wis would be;
15wis +6item +3tome +1enhancement +2ship +2yugo +1exc (slotted somewhere on gear) = 30 = +10AC from wisdom, seeing as you get 9 from the shield (without the dex), you gain 1 AC, then, using a shield wand, you could increase your AC by another 4, resulting in a gain of 5AC

Now if you take TWFDefense, it would increase your AC by another 1. Seeing as you are a fighter I'm pretty sure you could fit it in.


Edit;

Now it seems if you wear the best plate avaible for AC, Epic Cavalry Plate you would gain 16 Armor bonus. This is 8 over any bracers you could get. Lets use Epic Scorched Bracers.

8AC +4dodge (icy raiment) = 12
However, you would gain 6 AC due to TWF over S&B, resulting in 18 over 16, gaining 2 AC.

With this calculation I forgot to use the Max Dex bonus on the Plate, but seeing as it would be a negative for the AC with armor instead of Icy Raiment I'd say I made my point.




Now if you really want even more AC, consider picking up Longswords and Whirling Steel Strike, this would allow you to go into water stance, granting you another +2 AC, (+1 due to +2wis, and +1 dodge bonus stacking from stance)

However this is a bad idea, because your DPS will suffer :'D

Mind = blown by this post sir. Thank you for it. The only problem I see is starting with 15 wisdom. That's 8 points I'd have to take out of constitution, dexterity or strength, which would cause issues later on. The possibility of such high AC while maintaining Evasion makes me drool, but I can't see having a 15 base wisdom.

Edit: This toon has no UMD currently, and can only get up to 11.5 ranks of UMD. I don't know what UMD is required to use shield(5/10) wands, but I imagine it's about 25-30. Will I even be able to get up to that level of UMD without a higher charisma stat?

Drop a toughness feat and pick up Barb Past Life feat.

-2 hp but you gain +2 Intimated.

What Intim level are wanting to reach and what is going to be your weapon(s) of choice ?
EFang since you are taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword ?

I forgot that Barbarian Past life gives +2 intimidate! Thank you much sir!

I don't have access to the eFang sadly. If I did I would have taken the various Sentinel dragonmarks. I plan on using a Holy <metal> of <enemy> bane for bosses and simply a pair of lit IIs for dps. If I pick up the Sentinels of Stormreach pack I will definitely add that as my weapon of choice.

As for the intimidate score I need, I'd be lying if I said I knew the number you needed to get a high success rate versus Horoth, Suulomades and other bosses. I'm assuming that the number I'm reaching, about 65-70 tops due to gear constraints, will be insufficient for them, but I might be able to at least gather all the trash mobs to pummel me instead of my squishy wizard and cleric buddies.

[Teharahma]

Mind = blown by this post sir. Thank you for it. The only problem I see is starting with 15 wisdom. That's 8 points I'd have to take out of constitution, dexterity or strength, which would cause issues later on. The possibility of such high AC while maintaining Evasion makes me drool, but I can't see having a 15 base wisdom.

Edit: This toon has no UMD currently, and can only get up to 11.5 ranks of UMD. I don't know what UMD is required to use shield(5/10) wands, but I imagine it's about 25-30. Will I even be able to get up to that level of UMD without a higher charisma stat?

Charisma; 8base +2tome +6item +2ship = 18 Charisma / +4 Cha mod.
Level 10 Shield wands are UMD 38, so you would need 37 UMD for nofail.
11Ranks +4 modifier +3item +6charismaskills GS (you will probably want that for Intim anyway) +2good luck +4greater heroism = 30, so about a 60% chance, only bad thing is that using shield wands all the time can get quite expensive.
However with a little more gear, you could get +5 umd instead of +3item, and +3enhancement from epic big top.
Now, if you are using +7 charisma from epic helm of frost, and a +3 tome, it would increase by another 1. giving you a 90% chance. Or well over 100% for a level 5 shield wand.

The way I started with 15wis and 15 dex was;

Note; 32point build.
16str +levelups
15dex
14con (a bit low, but 20 (24) hp isnt all that much.
12int
15wis
08cha

Endgame should look a bit like this;

STR: 16base +5level +4enhancement +3tome +3profane (abishai set, which also gives a +3stacking AC) +6item +3exc +2ship +2yugo +6stance = 50
DEX: 15base +3tome +6item +2yugo +2exc +2ship = 30
CON: 14base +1enhancement +7item +3exc +3tome +2yugo +2ship +6stance = 38
INT: Not that important
WIS: 15base +1enhancement +6item +3tome +2ship +2yugo +3exc = 32
CHA: 08base +7item +3tome +2ship = 20

HP I calculated in planner;

180 Fighter
016 Monk
044 2 Toughness feats
030 Greater False Life
020 Toughness
010 Argo Favor
045 Shroud HP
060 Toughness Enhancements
280 Con
020 Barb Past life feat
020 Yugopot
20% Stance                 
870 Hitpoints

Forgetting things like Large Guild Slots (would result in 24more HP)
And +10% from Artificer (seeing as you will not always have one in the group)
Total would then be 983. Over 1k if you eat one of those Infernal Power cookies.

Intimidate could be;

023 Ranks
020 Intimidate on Epic Brawn's
005 Enhancement on Epic Gloves of the Claw
004 Enhancements
006 Stalwart
006 Shroud Charisma Skills
004 Greater Heroism
002 Good Luck
004 Deneith Intimi (If you take dragonmark feats)
002 Barbarian PL
002 Fighter PL
002 Bullheaded
003 SF: Intim
002 Dragonmark
001 Tenacious Badger
005 Charisma mod        
091 Intimidate, though this is with all the gear available, 
it's just an example for how high it can get.

Note; This is a LOT of effort to get all the gear listed, but its more or less something to strive for.

[unbongwah]

The drawback to going the monk-splash pajama route to AC is you lose the WIS bonus when using a shield. And these days, using a shield on an SD or DoS tank is as much (if not more) about the dmg mitigation from the shield feats plus the threat bonus in stance. Although if you're willing to grind out two sets of gear, you could have your pajama set for when you're TWFing and another set of "real" armor for when you're S&B tanking.