Madfloyd, Can We Have Let's Talk: Immunities?

[sephiroth1084]

There are quite a lot of things that players are immune to, and some that monsters are immune to, although the latter has been reduced considerably; however, lifting immunities on monsters has created something of an imbalance in some parts of the game due to some abilities being overly dominating. Ultimately, this all comes down to immunities restricting options and narrowing gameplay when used too much, and to not having a good middle ground in place between being immune and not being immune.

For instance, Freedom of Movement becomes a fairly common buff by around level 15 or so, when divine casters have enough spell slots to keep it loaded and enough mana to keep it up on everyone throughout a quest. Having FoM on means that enemies and traps that would hamper or prevent movement have no effect, and are rendered rather pointless.

The response the devs seem to have taken to counter this sort of problem is to have more monsters using Dispel Magic and by including Disjunction traps. That works in some places, but it gets rather annoying. Another solution the devs have initiated has been to remove an effect (earthgrab) from the list of things prevented by FoM.

In the case of Fortification, enemy striker types (rogues mostly) have had their sneak attack replaced, or augmented, by simply scaling up the damage these creatures deal to compensate for the fact that they cannot sneak attack most players. We've seen some Fort reducing effects added to enemies' repertoires, but those are fairly minor and uncommon. We have more ways to debuff our own Fortification in order to gain some buff or another than enemies do.

What we've ended up with are situations in which players are free from most forms of non-damaging harm (FoM, Greater Heroism, Neutralize Poison, Disease Immunity, Resist Energy, Heavy Fortification, Death Ward, Deathblock, Blindness Immunity...the list is pretty long). Sometimes these get stripped by a Dispel, or death, but much of the time, players are running around immune to most weapons you can bring to bear on us that don't deal straight, consistent damage. That takes a lot of variety out of the game.

There has to be a middle ground between our being immune to something for 20-40 minutes for 50 SP or less, and not having a resistance against it at all besides our saves. I'd be interested in seeing ablative immunities, or effects that instead of granting immunity instead allow rerolled failed saves or no failure on rolled '1's, or shorter duration buffs, of ways for enemies to suppress our buffs, rather than getting rid of them entirely, or...something.


On the monster front, I'd prefer to see better encounter design, where more groups of enemies come with a buffer that tosses out things like Mass Death Ward, or sings the Greater Heroism Warchant song as their opening moves. Give us the ability to stop enemy casters from buffing their allies, and of sometimes being able to debuff enemies that have immunities, while ensuring that we cannot simply Wail of the Banshee, Circle of Death, Finger of Death, rinse and repeat, because some enemies will have immunity...from a spell or potion.

I much prefer the few encounters we have that push us to try and stop the enemy casters from getting their spells off, or approach the encounter in a different fashion. The first fight in Chronoscope is like this--when I'm soloing for scrolls on my Pale Master, my first priority is to kill the teifling cleric before it can cast Mass Death Ward. If I succeed, I spend about 1/3 to 1/2 of my SP clearing everything in that first fight, and finish in 2-5 minutes. If I fail at that, I spend 1/2 to all of my SP and finish the fight in 5-10 minutes. If I were to carry Greater Dispel Magic, I could mitigate that problem, perhaps, but the dispel check is rather high, I believe (can it be made? I always forget to prepare it).

The problem with the Chrono fight, though, is that we both know about it and are given time to set up for it. If we had some more randomization in what we fight, some of the power of metagaming would be offset. If we didn't know which of the figures sitting around that circle would become the cleric, we'd have a harder time in there. If we didn't know whether, when getting to the locked door in Epic Tharaask Arena whether we'd be fighting 3 ogres and 4 trolls, or 2 ogres, 3 trolls and 2 ogre mages, we would be caught by surprise more often, and would be more significantly challenged, and in a non-cheesy way.

Ultimately, something has to be done about immunities, on both sides of the DM screen, in order to improve the health of the game and make it more interesting.

[voodoogroves]

I'm a huge fan of casters immediately quick-casting key buffs (mass SR, DW, Pro Elements, Pro good/evil).

EDIT: I'm a huge fan of our ability to dispel these if that is the case. BTW, Archmage Abjurers shouldn't get a DC boost - they should get a CL boost on abjuration spells, above and beyond the existing caps.

I'm also a huge fan of late-game monster (esp. epic mobs) spawning with random assumed equipment. Resists, % reduction/absorption, shield mastery, bonuses to save vs. spells, FOM, Deathblock, protection from evil/good, etc. Not vermin, but humanoids and to a lesser extent giants, monstrous humanoids, possibly some outsiders (tieflings, etc.)

The fact that the end of BOB spawns with EITHER a high SR sorc or a deathblocked orc caster is one of the little things I take joy from in this game. Let's have more of that.

[GoRinNoSho]

That gets to some of the now lesser known/seen enemies like the Death Priests in Relic of a Sovereign Past. They throw dispel magic then slay living. Very quick to take down the unprepared.

[Xenostrata]

I think that mobs should get a % chance to resist certain abilities based on intended difficulty (for instance, orange named epic mobs should have a 90% chance to ignore a death effect instead of 100%, and yellow get 50%).

I think Dispel Magic should be changed to a timed Suppression effect, and that more enemies should use it. A lot.

[sirgog]

/signed to discussion on this issue.

I expect, however, it will be a mix of:

"Waah! Too many blanket immunities on monsters"

with just a side of

"Why doesn't my Freedom of Movement grant ME blanket immunity to Earthgrab now?" (and that will be worded differently, to not use the term 'blanket immunity').


IMO the solution: More orange named mobs, or a new category of mobs that's between orange-named miniboss and regular trash mob, and give these some immunities. They definitely would need immunity to the AoE death spells.

[CheeseMilk]

I would like to see something like enemy "Heroes" (blue-names?) that aren't necessarily named, but have some of a random assortment or buffs/resists/etc. as if they were carrying similar gear to our own as players.

Orange names should also have some from this random assortment but I think Reds and Purples should remain essentially the same, since they've already got cool tricks, but these tricks should be switched around every now and again (not knowing whether Harry's gonna do a strafing run in Shroud IV would be kinda cool.)

Predictability is the enemy of repeat playing, after a certain point. Let's mix it up a bit!

[Sidewaysgts86]

Im basically /signed for ALL of these changes- But to be more specific, id ONLY like to see them (The immunities, mob-randomness, etc) take place on hard and higher difficulties. Not all of us are uber or 1337, normal and casual should remain that- Content for normal/casual players. This increased level of difficulty is, to me, VERY welcome on the levels its implications believe you theyd be found, on the higher difficulties.

[Kinerd]

The problem I have with weakening player character immunities is that doing so punishes the prepared player. I mean, look at your partial list:
FoM, Greater Heroism, Neutralize Poison, Disease Immunity, Resist Energy, Heavy Fortification, Death Ward, Deathblock, Blindness Immunity
Shouldn't the player be rewarded for putting that much effort into gear/buffs? If I know there are going to be earth elementals and I make a point of casting FoM, why shouldn't my character be better off than the player's that knows nothing about the quest and ran off before anyone buffed?

There's also the playability factor. When a character is incapacitated, whether through Hold, Despair, stat-penalty helpless, or what have you, I the player can do literally nothing to impact the game. That's boring and frustrating. If we are going to (continue to) remove absolute immunity, I think it's imperative to simultaneously revisit the idea of absolute incapacitation. My character can lift 10 thousand pounds but a CR 4 earth elemental can grasp him firmly enough to prevent literally all action... really? If I can absolutely prevent that situation, I don't really care how silly it is. If you force me to be subjected to it, I'm going to be pretty annoyed by it. I'm not going to think "wow, this is really challenging" as everyone else in the party pounds the elemental into rubble, I'm going to think "wow, this is really stupid" as blah blah blah.

[davidolson22]

If we lose them, I have to demand they lose them too. Especially the bosses since they are about same kind of person as the player characters. Assassinate Sulu for the win!

[KillEveryone]

I don't like immunities.

I do like to see mobs buff themselves.

I would really like to see dispel and disjunction fixed so that we have a good chance at removing mob buffs. We can't since they are a much higher level than us.

I would love to see mobs buff themselves, even have FoM, deathward and resists on when we enter, while I disjucntion their buffs that they got when we entered the quest, and see who gets FoD or death ward cast first.

I would like to see earth elementals looked at so that they do more than a few attacks. They seem to be stuck more on the earth grab thing like air elementals are on the knock down spam. I would like to see FoM work against earth elemental earth grab but since they are rather weak now, they don't really have a chance when we have FoM.

I'd like to see mobs not happily stand in my AoE while trying to hit me when I have displacement. They need some true seeing that I can debuff.

[sirgog]

The problem I have with weakening player character immunities is that doing so punishes the prepared player. I mean, look at your partial list:
FoM, Greater Heroism, Neutralize Poison, Disease Immunity, Resist Energy, Heavy Fortification, Death Ward, Deathblock, Blindness Immunity
Shouldn't the player be rewarded for putting that much effort into gear/buffs? If I know there are going to be earth elementals and I make a point of casting FoM, why shouldn't my character be better off than the player's that knows nothing about the quest and ran off before anyone buffed?

There's also the playability factor. When a character is incapacitated, whether through Hold, Despair, stat-penalty helpless, or what have you, I the player can do literally nothing to impact the game. That's boring and frustrating. If we are going to (continue to) remove absolute immunity, I think it's imperative to simultaneously revisit the idea of absolute incapacitation. My character can lift 10 thousand pounds but a CR 4 earth elemental can grasp him firmly enough to prevent literally all action... really? If I can absolutely prevent that situation, I don't really care how silly it is. If you force me to be subjected to it, I'm going to be pretty annoyed by it. I'm not going to think "wow, this is really challenging" as everyone else in the party pounds the elemental into rubble, I'm going to think "wow, this is really stupid" as blah blah blah.

We should have a few more partial incapacitation effects.

Blindness, curses, 10 STR damage, being 'snared' (unable to move but able to do everything else you want), and the like all impact players but let you do something relevant.

[GrayScioto]

I don't like immunities.

This!

It isn't ever going to happen but I would love to see all immunities for both PCs and monsters go away and take all fortification with it. Two of the dumber and game ruining elements of DDO.

Certainly monsters and PCs should be able to wear resist items and cast buffs that make them functionally immune to different attacks but there should always be a way to take those resists down. It widens the game play to have to spend a few rounds in a boss battle casting debuffs before the regular melee and casting can get underway. Currently most all end fights are an HP beat down with melee and just a few damaging spells. Boss immunity is boring. Now some monsters would "naturally" be immune to a specific types of attack like fire on an a fire elemental but otherwise everything should theoretically land if you can peel away the resists.

[smatt]

Yes please remove deathward and deathblock from the players... Disease immunity gone.... Poison immunity gone....

[sirgog]

This!

It isn't ever going to happen but I would love to see all immunities for both PCs and monsters go away and take all fortification with it. Two of the dumber and game ruining elements of DDO.

Certainly monsters and PCs should be able to wear resist items and cast buffs that make them functionally immune to different attacks but there should always be a way to take those resists down. It widens the game play to have to spend a few rounds in a boss battle casting debuffs before the regular melee and casting can get underway. Currently most all end fights are an HP beat down with melee and just a few damaging spells. Boss immunity is boring. Now some monsters would "naturally" be immune to a specific types of attack like fire on an a fire elemental but otherwise everything should theoretically land if you can peel away the resists.

Did you play when Destruction (the Cleric spell) worked on raid bosses for a week due to a bug?

Really, really anti-climactic to get to the big fight in Shroud only to see the boss keel over and die in 2 seconds to a Shattermantle hit followed by a poor save on Destruction. And you could wipe a Reaver group by one-shotting the giant too.

Boss immunities make the game a lot more fun than it would be without them.

[smatt]

Did you play when Destruction (the Cleric spell) worked on raid bosses for a week due to a bug?

It was longer than that

While I don't think blanket immunities applied ALL OVER the game is a good thing, some immunities in specific quests etc aren't such a bad thing. You see there's this thing called magic.... It's a wonderful and amazing thing..... Oh wait.... That's fantasy...... Nevermind


Maybe I'll start yet another... please Madfloyd can we have a "Let's Talk about copper pieces" thread.....

[KillEveryone]

Did you play when Destruction (the Cleric spell) worked on raid bosses for a week due to a bug?

Really, really anti-climactic to get to the big fight in Shroud only to see the boss keel over and die in 2 seconds to a Shattermantle hit followed by a poor save on Destruction. And you could wipe a Reaver group by one-shotting the giant too.

Boss immunities make the game a lot more fun than it would be without them.

I don't mind boss immunities too much, I do understand there needs to be something to make up for poor AI but I'd rather see AI improved much more and have a battle that is more variable than the surround and spank that we typically do now.

Horoth and Sulo should be a great battle but we put a tank on the big flappies and beat on their backsides. Makes me feel like I should be wearing some kind of spikey heel knee high shiney black leather boot and hold a whip while flappies ask for another.

Abbot is enteraining in that he moves around some(that is about as entertaining he gets,) otherwise we surround and beat down.

Reaver doesn't actually try to step on us. If I was a giant, I'd be trying to pounce on everyone and make them go squish, especially the halfling that tried to intimidate me.

[Kinerd]

I don't mind boss immunities too much, I do understand there needs to be something to make up for poor AI but I'd rather see AI improved much more and have a battle that is more variable than the surround and spank that we typically do now.

Horoth and Sulo should be a great battle but we put a tank on the big flappies and beat on their backsides. Makes me feel like I should be wearing some kind of spikey heel knee high shiney black leather boot and hold a whip while flappies ask for another.

Abbot is enteraining in that he moves around some(that is about as entertaining he gets,) otherwise we surround and beat down.

Reaver doesn't actually try to step on us. If I was a giant, I'd be trying to pounce on everyone and make them go squish, especially the halfling that tried to intimidate me.

I think this is more due to the difficulty with designing content for 12 people. Changing Arraetrikos' immunities isn't going to change the fact that 8 people are going to be standing in the same spot doing the same job in parts 4 and 5. The only way to change that up is to make the battle fundamentally more elaborate. Unfortunately, the most recent changes to raids demonstrate convincingly that this is not an option.

[RobbinB]

It's really not any more complicated than that. Having spells and items that confer "protections" is awesome and adds dimension to the game. Making that protection "immunity" is boring and goes to far.

Simply change deathblock to "when a save is failed against a death effect or spell, an additional save is granted to avoid the effect." Ditto for FOM, poison, and all other effects of this type. There could still be cases where mobs are inherently "immune" to an effect.

The "epic ward" given to mobs could also be changed in this manner. Instead of "this mob can't be fingered" you get "this mob has a double save against your finger". It also opens up an enhancement/prestige/feat possibilities granting bonuses to these second saves, which could also be gifted to orange names to make them more resistant than their joe-schmo counterparts.

It's been suggested before....it's really not rocket science.

(Balance....it's not just for gymnasts.)