A quick way to give melees a boost in epics . . .

[ArcaneMelee]

The only problem with making vorpals insta-kill is no one will use anything else once you get past a certain hp limit...

But yeah, no reason not to since you gave the casters mass insta-kill.

It will make dex builds semi-viable again if vorpals kill trash. My dex-based ranger/wizard sure was fun back when WoP ruled the roost.

Exactly. If everyone's swinging vorpals, the root problem is using massive HP to make them "challenging".

[TheDearLeader]

Exactly. If everyone's swinging vorpals, the root problem is using massive HP to make them "challenging".

Massive HP, and grossly overinflated stats.

When my Kensei has an Improved Trip DC in the mid-50s, I don't expect Drow/Human arcane casters in Epics to save more often than they fail. But, someone decided they should have ridiculously high Str/Dex.

[grodon9999]

Heh, why so it does!

So tell me, how awesome is your Palemaster in epics... How often does your finger of death or wail land? 90%? 70%? You have to negative level them first? How much SP does that cost?

Her finger of death lands a hell of a lot better than your vorpal

Against low-hannging fruit usually 1 envervate scroll and she lands finger 95% of the time. Sauhagin, tielfings, etc. Against ogres forget it, attack a weaker save. Against he trash in Epic LOB if I got a curse off on the non-pallies finger landed every time, with no curse it landed more often than not.

How about the drow? You kicking their ass with your 42 DC and your first-life caster Spell Pen?

No, but my web and firewall also kill them better than your vorpal!

How about the devils in eDA? How often does a wail work on them? How about the casters and Spellbows in eDA? They gather up nicely for a wail or do they range you and make you take them out singly (which is expensive SP wise).

CoD and Wail does okay, it'll thin out the herd but won't clear the room. But really it costs too many SP to try to kill every thing, danceball and masshold is cheaper.

She's only done EDA once as we usually bring my ranger or fighter on that, the one time she did it she did out-kill every melee in there all who were veteran players bristling with epic gear.

Caster is easy button, yes... yes it is.... DoTs are overpowered... wail is overpowered... but 42 DC doesn't make you godly...

What the hell does any of that have to do with what we are talking about?

it's not godly, it just contributes a hell of a lot better than any of my melees did 6 weeks after cap.

[Thrudh]

What the hell does any of that have to do with what we are talking about?

Heh, I don't know what the hell we're talking about anymore!!

[grodon9999]

Heh, I don't know what the hell we're talking about anymore!!

It had something to do with dugeons and a dragon, i think . . .

[Talon_Moonshadow]

For what was it.. 2 years, melee were over powered compared to casters even though if you follow PnP, casters are the more powerful of the bunch.

So in maybe 2 years... Melees have only been crying for a few months.

BTW, range physical (as compared to range magical) has been crying since release.

And quite frankly I really don't see any need to boost melee dps. I do see a need for an AC pass, however. Those mobs get in close, that caster is toast. Not so much for a melee where that is in the job description.

Yeah...that's kinda how I feel too. lol

But from what I see in PUGs melee are still very competitive.

The biggest disadvantage melees face is getting beat up all the time. And I don't know how to to fix that problem.

More tactical melee feats maybe. Especially if they give us epic feats someday.
I'm not opposed to an epic insta-kill meee feat. In fact I think we need one (eventually).

Some method of better self healing for melees. I think using favor to unlock would be appropriate. Current Silver Flame pots seem very expensive to me.

AC to matter, or "armor" to matter at least. (like DR from heavy armor)

Honestly, add meaningful DR to heavier armors, and shields.
Add protection from arrows and AOE damage when actively blocking with Tower shields.
Maybe lower the price of Silver Flame pots.

Those changes right there would make melee take less damage. And make soloing on one a better option.

I actually don't see anything wrong with melee DPS right now.
just the amount of damage they take while dishing it out.

[DragonMageT]

It had something to do with dugeons and a dragon, i think . . .

Heh, I don't know what the hell we're talking about anymore!!

Recap:

De-nerf stat damagers
Bring Vorpals back because casters are OP
42 DC is easy

Thread derailed: argument about the term "easy"

more conversation about vorpals
more conversation about 42 DC

stat break down of 42 DC

Chaos runs ramp-it in the thread.

The 2 arguing about the word "easy" are now confused.

[aristarchus1000]

Honestly, do people care about kill counts that much?

When I bring my caster, sure I get top kill counts, but I am just greasing the wheel until the next major boss fight. I am not as effective as a well built melee for red names.

Casters manage trash, melee manage the bosses. It really would not be fair if a melee did both, like it was before update 9. (and no, cc bot doesn't count).

And getting back to the thread... I like returning stat damage at least a little bit to epics. It might actually encourage teamwork. Str damage might even make ac useable? Dex damage to improve webs and comet fall cc, as well as lowering the ac of the mob. Con damage to improve wails and fod. I guess there is no wisdom damage for better cc. Hmmm.

Melee helping casters helping melee. Imagine that.

[TheDearLeader]

More tactical melee feats maybe. Especially if they give us epic feats someday.
I'm not opposed to an epic insta-kill meee feat. In fact I think we need one (eventually).

We don't need more feats, we just need the feats we have to work better.

Things like Improved Trip actually taking a caster out of the fight, or mobs not sliding around while Stunned/Tripped, basically for the duration of the Stun/Trip.

Or anti-boss mechanics like Improved Sunder having a longer duration. Oh yay... I landed an Improved Sunder on the LoB/Sully after five-stacking it... and he Superman Jumps/Teleports away for the duration that I could have actually used it. Meanwhile, the Caster's DoTs are still ticking on them no problem.

[Missing_Minds]

Honestly, do people care about kill counts that much?

Yes people do. Now I'm not saying Grodon does, as his op seemed to be more wanting to give melees a chance to feel as if they added value to the party like they use to do.

Which is ironic if you consider his post claiming to have raised piking to an artform.

[grodon9999]

Yes people do. Now I'm not saying Grodon does, as his op seemed to be more wanting to give melees a chance to feel as if they added value to the party like they use to do.

Which is ironic if you consider his post claiming to have raised piking to an artform.

The more the others in my party do, the more i can pike.

[somenewnoob]

Honestly, do people care about kill counts that much?

No, but I do care that I can't find an eChrono group that isn't "all caster" since a melee has no use if you're full of arcanes and divines.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

After reading the rest of this thread, I am not totally opposed to some of these ideas.

Stat damagers are currently practically useless on epics. And that isn't right.
They don't kill anyway, so why are they (not)working the way they do on epics?

Vorpals. Should be better than they are.
I don't actually think they should go back to the way they were, but I think they should be beefed up somewhat.

Maybe do some untyped damage with every hit.



These are not things that give melees a lot more DPS. But they give more value to those weapons.

Currently, I think that the only stat damager that has any value to me is W/P.
Not W.
Not P.
Just W/P.

I have seen some people use str damagers effectively, but I personally find them useless.

Stat damagers need a buff actually IMO. I don't seem them as useful even on non-epics. But maybe that is just me.
I do like W/P rapier on my Rogue though.

Been awhile since I used a Vorpal too.

These do need looked at.

I've also always thought player Trip was very weak.
Personally, I could have sworn that trip had a Dex option in PnP.

It's not so much that I think player trip is weak, but that monster trip is so strong. Especially those wolves. (AOE and no attack roll...what the heck is that?!)

But...this would have to be looked at carefully I think. Trip could easily be OP.

[Ganolyn]

Currently, I think that the only stat damager that has any value to me is W/P.
Not W.
Not P.
Just W/P.

Wounding of Pure Good or Wounding of Greater Bane are viable alternatives, especially on a small crit range weapon like a bow or an axe.

[grodon9999]

Wounding of Pure Good or Wounding of Greater Bane are viable alternatives, especially on a small crit range weapon like a bow or an axe.

Not since U9. no more auto-crits.

[Ganolyn]

Not since U9. no more auto-crits.

I'm not debating the merits of the change to auto crits, just the merits of W/P vs W/PG, W/GB in the present format. Given the small crit range of some weapons, you will probably do more damage with a straight damage modifier than a Puncturing weapon unless you are really lucky. If all you wanted was the auto crits, no stat damagers are really worth the trouble anymore.

[grodon9999]

I'm not debating the merits of the change to auto crits, just the merits of W/P vs W/PG, W/GB in the present format. Given the small crit range of some weapons, you will probably do more damage with a straight damage modifier than a Puncturing weapon unless you are really lucky. If all you wanted was the auto crits, no stat damagers are really worth the trouble anymore.

I'm not, I hate this change. Makes khopesh king in almost every circumstance whereas before you had more opttions.

So what a rapier user would switch to pick for epic trash, you'd have ICierce anyway.

I built a lightning II bow on my tempest just so I could IPS manyshot multiple held mobs. Now I dont bother.

[Ganolyn]

I never really got the W/P love before the change anyway. You knock their CON down so they go into auto crit for six seconds. At that point your weapon does sub-optimal DPS as the stat damager no longer applies. If you switch to better weapons, a few seconds is lost in the transfer as you have to stop your attack animation, so you don't get your full six seconds of auto crit. Everyone else hitting it does though, so at least there's that. Doesn't seem really worth it to me.

[grodon9999]

I never really got the W/P love before the change anyway. You knock their CON down so they go into auto crit for six seconds. At that point your weapon does sub-optimal DPS as the stat damager no longer applies. If you switch to better weapons, a few seconds is lost in the transfer as you have to stop your attack animation, so you don't get your full six seconds of auto crit. Everyone else hitting it does though, so at least there's that. Doesn't seem really worth it to me.

They also lose HP when they lose CON that you don't see in the damage rolls.

The toon you knew as my elf ranger (now a human pally) kills trash that at vulnerable to stat-damage much faster with her Icy Bursted WoP rapiers than my other guy with dual lightning II khopeshes, even if the target doesn't get to auto-crit.

[Ganolyn]

They also lose HP when they lose CON that you don't see in the damage rolls.

Even after they have been brought to zero CON? Don't get me wrong, I use W/PG swords and bows a lot, most things never get to 50% extra damage before they die of straight damage.