Heal potions, the time has come

[cforce]

I'm glad the OP brought this up. The lack of Heal potions for pure Barbs and Fighters has been bugging me for a while. In the same vein, I've felt really under-powered in melee on my Pale Master 18/Monk 2. The melee attacks do OK DPS, but I've found myself really outclassed by Barbs. I mean, they've got twice my BAB, and 40 more points of strength when fully raged. How am I supposed to compete with that? It's high time for more potions to be added. At a bare minimum, I'd suggest:

Potion of BAB: Raises BAB to character level, 5 minutes.
Potion of Barbarian Rage: Character enters a killing frenzy, getting a +20 bonus to Strength and Constitution. Character cannot cast spells while Barbarian Rage is active. Duration: 2 minutes
Potion of Being a Warforged: Character gets all Warforged immunities, and may wear Docents as though they were a Warforged. Duration: 10 minutes

Of course, once some of this basic tech is implemented, there should be lots of other applications. For example, I don't really have time to invest in multiple TR's. I'd love to see:

Potion of Past Life <type>: For the next 10 minutes, character gains the benefits as though they had the granted Past Life <type> feat. This potion can stack up to three times.

I'll leave the rest of the possibilities as a exercise for the reader -- I think it's clear how much more fun the game would be if my gameplay wasn't arbitrarily restricted by decisions like "race" and "class" -- this would only make the game more fun for everyone!

[gloopygloop]

I'm actually getting curious - what build are you playing that lacks self-healing? I'm betting there's a way to get pretty good self-healing without sacrificing too much of your <whatever the build does best>, even without Silver Flame pots.

Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues lack self healing unless they get Silver Flame pots (Ain't gonna happen before level 16 at least) or hit somewhere-in-the-30's UMD. Even for Rogues, that takes a while and some significant gear.

Rangers lack self healing once they run out of spell points. For most Rangers, that's pretty quick. Even Paladins are pretty limited in their ability to self heal just because they don't have a tremendous number of spell points.

[grodon9999]

Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues lack self healing unless they get Silver Flame pots (Ain't gonna happen before level 16 at least) or hit somewhere-in-the-30's UMD. Even for Rogues, that takes a while and some significant gear.

a Green steel skills item and a bunny hat is all that's needed for no-fail Hjeal scrolls on ANY capped (or close to capped) rogue or rogue splash.

Rangers lack self healing once they run out of spell points. For most Rangers, that's pretty quick. Even Paladins are pretty limited in their ability to self heal just because they don't have a tremendous number of spell points.

Same with arcanes and divines though.

With no healing amp and Ardor IV pots a maximized CSW will hit a ranger/pally for about 150 and cost 37 SP. Decent healing amp will hit 200-250, and beyond for more than that. That'll cover you for anything non-epic and many epics.

[badbob117]

At this point i would be happy with just a cure critical wounds potion.

[gloopygloop]

a Green steel skills item and a bunny hat is all that's needed for no-fail Hjeal scrolls on ANY capped (or close to capped) rogue or rogue splash.

That is certainly true. That's why I'm leveling a Barbarian 18/Rogue 2. I want to be able to throw around Hjeal scrolls at cap. I know that I'm not going to be self sufficient until I actually reach the cap, however. Evasion is nice, but it's really the UMD that I was after with that splash.

Same with arcanes and divines though.

With no healing amp and Ardor IV pots a maximized CSW will hit a ranger/pally for about 150 and cost 37 SP. Decent healing amp will hit 200-250, and beyond for more than that. That'll cover you for anything non-epic and many epics.

"Real" arcanes and divines don't tend to run out of SP, though. They have AoE effects that can take out large swarms of trash together while Rangers and Paladins have to kill their enemies one at a time (taking damage all the while). Rangers and Paladins also have far fewer SP (even more so while leveling). They are fully self sufficient until they run out of spell points. With a Torc and a Concordant Opposition HP item, they can keep going for a good long time, but there are a lot of quests that they won't last through without some serious help with spell points.

There are some quests where I have to be a little careful with spell points on my FvS. Even a very well geared Paladin or Ranger is going to have less than 1/4 of the spell points that my FvS has.

[grodon9999]

"Real" arcanes and divines don't tend to run out of SP, though. They have AoE effects that can take out large swarms of trash together while Rangers and Paladins have to kill their enemies one at a time (taking damage all the while). Rangers and Paladins also have far fewer SP (even more so while leveling). They are fully self sufficient until they run out of spell points. With a Torc and a Concordant Opposition HP item, they can keep going for a good long time, but there are a lot of quests that they won't last through without some serious help with spell points.

There are some quests where I have to be a little careful with spell points on my FvS. Even a very well geared Paladin or Ranger is going to have less than 1/4 of the spell points that my FvS has.

Neither do real pallies or rangers. We never need a healer for anything non-epic and in epic the healer rarely needs to toss us a heal except if you're madstoned while tanking something.

[Xenostrata]

Meh. I'm conflicted.

/Signed, but only if the natural healing abilities that melee already have (mainly LoH) are buffed so that they don't immediately become redundant.

[MaximusParthas]

/not signed

It appears your asking the devs to 'give you freely" what I worked for months to achieve.
That same thing happened with the cc event and it really left me PO'd.
Here I'd spent months grinding the hardest epic quests in the game, spent a fortune in trades and then suddenly it's the 1st of the month and everyone gets a free epic & upgraded unkors cleaver for minimal effort.
Since then I've refused to participate in any more of the grinds that ddo has implemented. House c, challenges, crafting. whatever.
NO! I'm not getting caught like that again.

As a melee i understand the frustration but cannot agree with increasing your abilities by diminishing my accomplishments.
There is a compromise mentioned here that seems reasonable. CCW pots at increased levels. Or any existing pots that come at higher caster levels for that matter.

[aristarchus1000]

I don't think they should be sold at the vendor. That's basically an unlimited supply, even at a relatively high price.

I do think that they won't be bad as droppable loot. Perhaps at the same rate or slightly higher than Major Mneumonics. Unbound, can be bought and traded on the AH, and saved for emergencies by melees (and casters).

[Talias006]

Neither do real pallies or rangers. We never need a healer for anything non-epic and in epic the healer rarely needs to toss us a heal except if you're madstoned while tanking something.

Please refrain from including every ranger and paladin when you toss out generalizations.
I'm curious how you build your partial divines that rarely need healers for anything short of epic.
How do you go toe to toe with Harry and not need healing?

Other questions about melee abilities may occur later, but that's a pretty significant one right there, and often lamented for getting greensteel gear.
If there are any inclusions of TR Past Lives in your builds, then you're not referencing all rangers and paladins properly.

[Aaxeyu]

A 90 HP heal potion wouldn't really break anything that the 250 HP sf pot hasn't already broken.

[Xenostrata]

Please refrain from including every ranger and paladin when you toss out generalizations.
I'm curious how you build your partial divines that rarely need healers for anything short of epic.
How do you go toe to toe with Harry and not need healing?

Other questions about melee abilities may occur later, but that's a pretty significant one right there, and often lamented for getting greensteel gear.
If there are any inclusions of TR Past Lives in your builds, then you're not referencing all rangers and paladins properly.

In any non-epic situation, I explicitly tell most healers not to throw me a spot heal. For raids, the same is generally true - I won't try to heal myself through bosses because I'll be in the masses, but when we are just fighting trash I can handle myself with CSW or LoH for a good amount of time. Hell, against low damage bosses like Harry, I can generally keep myself up for a little while if the healer dies - not long, but enough time to hold agro until the healer is rezzed.

This is all on my first life, WARFORGED (barely breaking 100% HAmp, with ship buffs) paladin.

Edit: Alright, not entirely true. If it's a situation where the healer might run out of sp, or if I notice that they keep overhealing me just as I toss myself an LoH, I'll tell them to stop throwing me spot heals. If there isn't any SP concerns, I generally save my LoHs for an emergency and let the healer toss me a heal - or hit myself with a few CSWs, whichever happens first.

[Talias006]

Okay, so you're a good exception to the general populace.
Didn't mention build except the almost 100% HA with ship buffs, so that really doesn't tell me much.

What gear and enhancements did you take to get there?
Is your reference to non-epic based on healing while leveling up?
Or purely on getting to level 20 and running other non-raid, non-epic adventures?

I'm still learning things about how to make my 18 Paladin better in his first life, so I'm curious to know these things before I consider getting 20 and a TR.

[Postumus]

I'm glad the OP brought this up. The lack of Heal potions for pure Barbs and Fighters has been bugging me for a while. In the same vein, I've felt really under-powered in melee on my Pale Master 18/Monk 2. The melee attacks do OK DPS, but I've found myself really outclassed by Barbs.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you're proposing removing all major mnemonic pots from the game, and adding a -10 modifier to all stats and slow 50% side effects to greater mnemonic pots?

I'm down with that.

[Postumus]

Please refrain from including every ranger and paladin when you toss out generalizations.
I'm curious how you build your partial divines that rarely need healers for anything short of epic.
How do you go toe to toe with Harry and not need healing?

He pikes?

[Xenostrata]

Okay, so you're a good exception to the general populace.
Didn't mention build except the almost 100% HA with ship buffs, so that really doesn't tell me much.

What gear and enhancements did you take to get there?
Is your reference to non-epic based on healing while leveling up?
Or purely on getting to level 20 and running other non-raid, non-epic adventures?

I'm still learning things about how to make my 18 Paladin better in his first life, so I'm curious to know these things before I consider getting 20 and a TR.

Almost 100% without ship buffs, just over 100% with (still working on that claw set). As far as gear/enhancements, I've only got the first two tiers of healer's friend, the Flashshaper's Docent, and +20% slotted on my Encrusted.

For leveling, the general rule for any class is that if you are calling for heals before level 10, you're doing it wrong. As a Paladin, I can generally maintain this self sufficiency up until 15-16ish. Then, it comes back when you hit 18 due a lot to ToD ring HAmp and DoS bonuses (glorious stand has the extra bonus of being a cheap way to double all your CSWs for 30 seconds; it means mine hit for ~120). Also note that carrying around a Sup Devotion item at the least (preferably ardor) boosts you're healing by a lot, and that learning to use CSW between fights instead of LoH makes a huge difference when you end up needing to toss yourself an LoH in an emergency.

[Redicular]

He pikes?

nah its the standard level 20 who already has the gear from farming for a year, running level 17 content on normal(shroud) saying "I don't need it, don't see why anyone else could"

healing amp:
dragontouched - level 17 content
greensteel - level 17 content
leviks - level 17 content
vengeful protector - level 18 content... and its a shield
fleshshaper - level 17 content
TOD ring - level 18 content
monk enhancements - require you to be a monk
human enhancements - require you to be a human
paladin enhancements(hunter of the dead) - require you to be a paladin
finger necklace - level 14 content, but its litany...
jidz-tet'ka - level 5 content, requires monk level

so basically excluding TRs, it is impossible to have any significant healing amp before level 17 unless you are human, a monk, or a paladin. the best you can have is 10% from finger necklace if you get a lucky pull.

at level 17 you'll have at least 250 hp or your build has some issues
at level 17 the BEST potion available to you* will heal you for 3d6+9 or 12-27 hp, meaning you need to drink at least 9 to fill up after losing nearly all your hp

my fighter had over 450 hp at level 17, he'd need 20 potions to fill up. even ignoring the financial issue this could cause a new player, it takes 3 seconds to drink the second potion. a solid minute of just sitting still and chugging to get hp back

and it has to be after fight, 90% of level 15 enemies will hit for more than 12 a swing, making mid-fight potions a good way to die since they stop your dps and don't heal for more than you're taking

the argument to this is always umd...
heal has a umd of 39
this is a number that is impossible to reach before greensteel by anyone except maybe an arti who stupidly spent a bunch of build points in charisma. so basically heal scrolls are a greensteel item, level 17 content
it took me 10 shroud completions to get 2 LDS, the amount you need for a chr skill item. 10 completions is = to 30 farming runs(3 shots at larges in a completion, 1 shot in a farm)

do we expect people to stop and do 30 shrouds at level 17 to be able to self heal, or to run every one of the silver flame quests to be able to heal with some MASSIVE penalties(yeah -10 str is nothing to a barb, but think of a rogue who might only have 30 str buffed and is only 3/4 bab to boot)

As for what will happen to the healers, well... given the time i've spent on the forums, most clerics and fvs don't want to be healers anyway, you'd think they'd be lining up at the door for better melee self-healing options

everyone agrees the difficulty of mobs ramps up at gianthold level 12-13(i'd actually say it does at lordsmarch levels 11-12 but that's me) so for 5 levels there is largely no self healing option for melees who aren't TR, paladin, monk, or human RIGHT when the foes we're fighting get a power boost.

something needs to be added to cover that 5+ level gap, CCW potions or CSW with higher caster level slot in just about perfectly

*assuming, like most, you didn't do every single silver flame quest on elite as you leveled

[Postumus]

nah its the standard level 20 who already has the gear from farming for a year, running level 17 content on normal(shroud) saying "I don't need it, don't see why anyone else could"

so basically excluding TRs, it is impossible to have any significant healing amp before level 17 unless you are human, a monk, or a paladin. the best you can have is 10% from finger necklace if you get a lucky pull.

my fighter had over 450 hp at level 17, he'd need 20 potions to fill up. even ignoring the financial issue this could cause a new player, it takes 3 seconds to drink the second potion. a solid minute of just sitting still and chugging to get hp back

and it has to be after fight, 90% of level 15 enemies will hit for more than 12 a swing, making mid-fight potions a good way to die since they stop your dps and don't heal for more than you're taking

the argument to this is always umd...
heal has a umd of 39
this is a number that is impossible to reach before greensteel by anyone except maybe an arti who stupidly spent a bunch of build points in charisma. so basically heal scrolls are a greensteel item, level 17 content
i

Great post. Great breakdown.

Reminds me of my first life H/O fighter never had a lick of healing amp and suffered severely for it. He had low UMD too since he was my highest level character and I had never run a single shroud. He had around 450 HPs and pot healing was BRUTAL.

[Sidewaysgts86]

so for 5 levels there is largely no self healing option for melees who aren't TR, paladin, monk, or human...

Just my 02 cents, but thats how its SUPPOSED to be, at least to me.

[chodelord]

ok how about this, instead of heal pots sold at vendors how about they drop as quest loot at the same rate as greater mnemonics but in stacks of 5?

this encourages quest running, adds another plat sink, and gives toons without blue bars the exact same resource replenishment options as casters have with their mana potions

but really an >100 hp healing potion really needs to be added to vendors