Thinking of Acrobat

[Jasparion]

Always wanted to try out Acrobat because I like to try different builds. Ive seen a lot of builds which include either 1 or 6 or even 7 ranks of Monk and Im wondering just what Monk brings to the table (because I dont currently own Monk and Turbine never seem to offer the discounts on the things I want, when I want them).

Can I make do with 13/7 Fighter? Will that many Fighter ranks make the Search/Disable rolls too hard? Is 13/6/1 Ranger a better option to also get a Favored Enemy and Bow Strength?

Do I wait and see if the 3rd Pre comes out and think about 18/1/1 or 18/2 Fighter?

Or maybe even 20 Rogue and go for +4 SA capstone?

Im thinking Human would work well for the Human skill boost, extra feat and extra skill points. I saw a Warforged 13R/6F/1M last night and he got double the kills of anyone else, though that isnt really an indicator of anything as he may have out-geared everyone or maybe the high quarterstaff speed just means he gets the final kill more, even though his damage is lower. But he said he really likes that combo of classes and the way it plays.

Some advice from those who have tried a number of these variations would be much appreciated. And no, I dont want to go Assassin even if it does more damage and can do traps and blah, blah, blah, nor do I want to go Mechanic. I really want to try Acrobat.

And yes, if I go Acrobat, hate it, and switch to Assassin I will come back here and apologise.

Thanks !

[Norean]

A monk can use a quarterstaff and remain centered. A centered monk can use stances and use finishers. Wind stance increases weapon attack speed by 7.5% according to the compendium and it grants a 2.5% chance to double strike. The wind stance attack speed increase stacks with the acrobat attack speed increase. That's what I've read around the forums at least. If you're a light monk then you get abilities like putting an effect on an enemy that causes all attacks on the monster to heal the players attacking it. There's several finishers that you can look up in the compendium.

[Redicular]

Im wondering just what Monk brings to the table (because I dont currently own Monk and Turbine never seem to offer the discounts on the things I want, when I want them).
....
the high quarterstaff speed just means he gets the final kill more, even though his damage is lower

that is exactly what monk brings to an acrobat, more than anything else.


Way of Air

Disciple of Breezes: The wind is untouchable, and you have taken your first steps on the path to understanding what it is to be a leaf on the wind.
Lesser Wind Stance: The relentless storm focuses on movement and speed. Lesser Wind Stance grants +2 Dexterity, a 7.5% Enhancement bonus to melee and thrown attack speed, and grants a 2.5% chance to doublestrike with melee weapons, at the cost of -2 Constitution.

Adept of Wind: The wind is untouchable, and you continue on the path to understanding what it is to be like the wind.
Wind Stance: The relentless storm focuses on movement and speed. Wind Stance grants +2 Dexterity, a 10% Enhancement bonus to melee and thrown attack speed, and grants a 5% chance to doublestrike with melee weapons, at the cost of -2 Constitution.

for reference, haste gives a 15% enhancement bonus to melee and thrown attack speed, and grants a 0% chance to doublestrike with melee weapons, can be dispelled(wind stance can't) and only lasts 4 minutes extended at level 20

so 1 level of monk, 4(2 if halfling or +2 tome) build points in dex and a restriction to robes or outfits and you get a near permanent 7.5% speed bonus(1/2 of haste)

since 20 rogue gives so little(just capstone access, and for the longest time the capstone was borderline worthless) its a pretty safe trade off. you get some save boosts, some minor AC, attack speed, and some doublestrike, at the cost of cheat death or 4d6 SA

the deeper splash takes more thought

your speed/strike boosts increase, and you gain a MUCH better will and fort save. you also get access to monk healing amp and ninja spy. ninja spy gives back one of the sneak attack dice you're losing by stopping at 13 rogue putting you only 2d6 behind a cheat death rogue(though still 6d6 behind a deadly shadow) and gives you a stacking 25% miss chance for 15 ki. also with 6 levels, monk's d8 hp starts to overpower the -2 con of wind stance when compared to rogue d6 hp

you do lose 2 special abilities, which can hurt a bunch since there are 2 must have special abillities(improved evasion and opportunist) and a 13/6/x rogue only gets 2.


fighter levels actually boost the opposite of monk. you'd take fighter to get weapon focus and weapon spec feats and a bit of strength, boosting your per hit damage, whereas monk levels are all about boosting hit count. fighter boosts hp, but actually hurts your reflex save(boosts fort, does nothing for will) and can, as you saw, cause some issues with skill points.
the skill issue can be countered somewhat with the fact that there aren't any rogue designed robes or outfits, monk levels restrict you to those where as fighter lets you stick with the light armor thats made with rogue in mind

both can and will be effective, i personally lean towards the monk build, but then monks are my favorite class to play.

as a minor note, NEVER build for what "might" be coming soon. build your character for whats out now, if TA3 ends up being a game changer, respec or make a new character

[Jasparion]

Thanks for the advice. I still have a while to go before I TR, so can hold out on a Monk store discount, and even on Turbine saying something about giving more Pre to classes which only have 1 or 2 levels.

If I am always hasted then I dont get much out of Wind stance and I assume I wouldnt even bother with it because of the lost HP?

And it comes down to whether 6 or 7 levels of Fighter will still let me cap my trapping skills (need to use a builder to see - but certainly would need the last few levels to be Rogue to put extra points in), and I assume I simply wont have enough points to get UMD - which this build seems to make good use of.

[Angelus_dead]

Always wanted to try out Acrobat because I like to try different builds. Ive seen a lot of builds which include either 1 or 6 or even 7 ranks of Monk and Im wondering just what Monk brings to the table

Monk provides AC and handwraps (which allow for faster attacks). Using Quarterstaff is a trap that makes you less effective.

[Dartwick]

My current acrobat is an old spec of 12 rogue, 6 fighter, 2 monk which made sense because of the old enhancement lines.

If I ever get around to TRing him it will be

13rogue/6monk(dark)/1fighter
Notably because monks have max BAB with staffs just a fighter. But you will get better stances and you will get get shadow fade which is great.

Other reasonable choices
13rogue/6fighter/1barb.
13rogue/6figher/1monk

1 barb would give more hitpoint and run speed than 1 monk but much less AC and no tier one stance. If you are going with a half orc I would probably take barb.

[Redicular]

Monk provides AC and handwraps (which allow for faster attacks). Using Quarterstaff is a trap that makes you less effective.

only if you're willing to burn 3 feats on the twf chain. without the chain, and with 1 monk level handwraps are about even at TA 1. both are 1d6, both are 10% faster than standard melee, q-staff gets better str bonus and PA bonus hand wraps get 20% double-strike(technically off hand strike)

at TA 2, q-staffs are at +20% vs normal melee and everything else stays the same

wraps are unquestionably better if you have the feats to back them up, but without them they fall behind. q-staff doesn't need the THF feats to be effective, and it can actually be argued that a rogue, who wants to avoid aggro as much as possible, would be better served to not take them at all

with 6 monk levels you're looking at 1d8 dmg vs 10% att speed. I'm not good enough with the numbers to work that out, but at a glance would seem to still favor q-staff, but a 6 monk build will get 3 bonus feats to make fitting TWF in easier.

i run a 6 monk acrobat that uses q-staff, because I'd rather use those 3 feats for more utility things like sf: UMD and improved sunder

[Diyon]

If you haven't checked out this thread yet, do so: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158960

Pretty much gives you any information on different sorts of acrobats you could want.

Monk is nice for the reasons people pointed out already. Fire stance gets you +2 STR, so more to hit and damage and +1 to tactics. Earth stance, while it gives you threat gen can be very useful for situational 20 HP and and physical damage resistance.

Monk provides AC and handwraps (which allow for faster attacks). Using Quarterstaff is a trap that makes you less effective.

Sad, but mostly true here. I still use staff because I like it, and hope they'll make it a more competitive option. Really they should kill the faster rate handwraps get (nothing equivalent in PnP, their PnP extra attacks applied to any monk weapon too and is accounted here by a bonus to BAB), or give the other monk weapons the same speed as handwraps for monks.

[Jasparion]

If you haven't checked out this thread yet, do so: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158960

Pretty much gives you any information on different sorts of acrobats you could want.

Monk is nice for the reasons people pointed out already. Fire stance gets you +2 STR, so more to hit and damage and +1 to tactics. Earth stance, while it gives you threat gen can be very useful for situational 20 HP and and physical damage resistance.

I saw the thread but 101 pages over many years...

[wax_on_wax_off]

If I was going to make an Acrobat I would play to its strengths.

Primarily, make it for Cannith Challenges. There, the AC, Movement Speed and Knockdown immunity can outweigh the benefit of Assassin/TWF'ing DPS quite easily.

I'd suggest 13 rogue (acrobat II) / 6 fighter (kensei I) / 1 Barbarian

This gives you +10%, +10% movement speed (unsure how it stacks) and sprint boosts as well(!). You'll have enough feats for full THF'ing line, stunning blow, improved trip (requires Combat Expertise) and other tactics feats (consider sap and hamstring as well) and considerable boosts to their DC (+3 from fighter levels I think).

Race is flexible. Options:
Human: +1 feat, more skills (probably not needed), healing amp (awesome for self sufficiency which is key)
Half-orc: Extra damage with quarterstaff, more tactics DCs from higher strength and more sprint and haste boosts, a great choice.
Warforged: Tactics, high HP and immunities makes this another good choice.
Dwarf: Tactics, high HP and great saves make this a good choice.

Overall I'd suggest to go with Half-orc.

Definitely a fine build concept in my opinion that will shine in quests and challenges if you devote resources to self sufficiency (self healing is paramount).

[destiny4405]

check out this build also http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3957241#p3957241

13rog/7mnk, using epic souleater and having enormous heal amp.

[unbongwah]

Here's a 28-pt F2P human acrobat I did a while back for someone else. Could use some tweaking, though, I haven't updated it recently.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
(6 Fighter \ 1 Barbarian \ 13 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 13
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    26
Dexterity            14                    17
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    15
Bluff                -1                     0
Concentration         2                     3
Diplomacy             3                    23
Disable Device        3                    22
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  4                    28
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             6                    17
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search                3                    22
Spot                  3                    13
Swim                  4                     8
Tumble                6                    13
Use Magic Device      3                    22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Least Dragonmark of Passage (can be swapped for Hamstring later)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Barbarian)
Skill: Jump (+4)


Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Jump (+2)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw (or Cleave or Lesser Passage DM)


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery II

The idea is the barb splash + Least Passage DM provides +35% run speed early on for ZOOOOM! [Later on, once you have a good Striding item, you can swap out the DM for something else like Hamstring.] There's a bit of a tactics flavor with Stunning Blow & Imp Sunder. Main problem is APs wind up really tight, between Acro II & Kensai I pre-reqs, max Haste Boost, and all the other goodies one could take, there's isn't room for everything I'd like, unfortunately.

[Jasparion]

Here's a 28-pt F2P human acrobat I did a while back for someone else. Could use some tweaking, though, I haven't updated it recently.

The idea is the barb splash + Least Passage DM provides +35% run speed early on for ZOOOOM! [Later on, once you have a good Striding item, you can swap out the DM for something else like Hamstring.] There's a bit of a tactics flavor with Stunning Blow & Imp Sunder. Main problem is APs wind up really tight, between Acro II & Kensai I pre-reqs, max Haste Boost, and all the other goodies one could take, there's isn't room for everything I'd like, unfortunately.

Interesting idea. Certainly something to look at if I dont go Monk. But I really do like the look of 13R/7M. Just have to decide if its worth buying Monk.

[AMDarkwolf]

Monk provides AC and handwraps (which allow for faster attacks). Using Quarterstaff is a trap that makes you less effective.

Thinking acrobat + monk using quaterstaff is a 'trap' is a big mistake.

They gain SA dmg from dex with the staff, attack 20-25% faster(BEFORE wind stance which IS a trap) have 20-30% more amp, free sneaks on anything they fight, regardless of agro, 25% miss chance(fade), multitude of varius strikes to paralyze, insta-crit, prevent enemy spellcasting, etc, all while in stance, and with rhals, E-SE, and other good staffs toward endgame, they can (and do) out dps handwrap monklobats by quite a fair amount, all while attacking almost as fast. Ontop of all that, they are able to become quite survivable and can tank pretty much anything u can think of(If geared right)

And ontop of all that, they are FUN to play. And don't have to stare at a weird punch-punch-kick-backwardsdefyphysicskick-repeat animation all day :P

[destiny4405]

And don't have to stare at a weird punch-punch-kick-backwardsdefyphysicskick-repeat animation all day :P

let's not make this personal

[Angelus_dead]

Thinking acrobat + monk using quaterstaff is a 'trap' is a big mistake.

Incorrect: you are making a mistake by advocating a character with Monk levels use a staff.

They gain SA dmg from dex with the staff, attack 20-25% faster(BEFORE wind stance which IS a trap) have 20-30% more amp, free sneaks on anything they fight, regardless of agro, 25% miss chance(fade), multitude of varius strikes to paralyze, insta-crit, prevent enemy spellcasting, etc, all while in stance, and with rhals, E-SE, and other good staffs toward endgame, they can (and do) out dps handwrap monklobats by quite a fair amount, all while attacking almost as fast.

Almost all of those claims are false.

A rogue/monk with a staff does not attack nearly as fast as one with handwraps, does not have similar damage, and does not have any more Ki powers. The dark combos are not good powers, wind is the better stance, rhals is not a good weapon, and obviously most of those benefits couldn't apply to someone with just 1 Monk level.

[Redicular]

A rogue/monk with a staff does not attack nearly as fast as one with handwraps, does not have similar damage, and does not have any more Ki powers. The dark combos are not good powers, wind is the better stance, rhals is not a good weapon, and obviously most of those benefits couldn't apply to someone with just 1 Monk level.

this is frankly... horrifically wrong

attack speeds i use for comparison

unarmed has a ~6 swing per minute bonus over q-staff(fast thf) at bab 20, for a rogue this will be even less since the gap grows as BAB grows

thief acrobat gives 20% attack speed to quarterstaffs... its at +14 swings per minute after that bonus

so YES, thief acrobat with q-staff does swing faster than thief acrobat with handwraps.

loot gen q-staff does 1d6 damage
handwraps do 1d6 at levels 1-3, 1d8 at 4 to 7, and 1d10 at 8-10, after that, you have more monk levels than rogue, and you're a monk

quarterstaffs are better for MONKS until that dmg boost at level 4

14 swings per minute doesnt make up for 1d6 vs 1d8, but then you factor in +5 from power attack, and the 1.5 str bonus... I'd be willing to offer that they're at least similar particularly since high end q-staffs aren't 1d6, greensteel is 1d8, rahls is 1d11, breeze is 1d10, epic nat gann is 2d6(full disclosure breez and epic nat don't get 1.5 stat-to-dmg)

wind stance... depends on what you're doing i suppose, doublestrike with a HP penalty vs healing amp. for a shroud type beatdown wind is the way to go, but for general questing i'd vote healing amp

i do agree with you on ki powers, those all factor in monk level and thus are worthless for a thief acrobat

[Angelus_dead]

this is frankly... horrifically wrong

Nope. It's you who is horrifically wrong.

That's because you're making the assumption that the unarmed guy doesn't have GTWF. That's obviously nowhere near realistic.

[Redicular]

Nope. It's you who is horrifically wrong.

That's because you're making the assumption that the unarmed guy doesn't have GTWF. That's obviously nowhere near realistic.

which goes back to my earlier point, handwraps take 3 extra feats to have that dps advantage you're so keen on, q-staff doesn't even need 1

at 0 feats, q-staff wins
at 1 feat, q-staff wins (provided you're using one of the higher base damage staves)
at 2 feats, handwraps win
at 3 feats, handwraps win

why burn feats to make a secondary weapon better

[AMDarkwolf]

Incorrect: you are making a mistake by advocating a character with Monk levels use a staff.


Almost all of those claims are false.

A rogue/monk with a staff does not attack nearly as fast as one with handwraps, does not have similar damage, and does not have any more Ki powers. The dark combos are not good powers, wind is the better stance, rhals is not a good weapon, and obviously most of those benefits couldn't apply to someone with just 1 Monk level.

A rog/mnk with staff DOES attack nearly as fast vs a handwrap monk, being that the rog in question is acrobat II, fully.
They have possibly MORE damage considerng(with full chain) glancing blows, extra proc'sof weapons, 1.5x dmg with PA, and SA bonus from dex added to what they normally get.

And no i never said the staff gains u other abilities, I was outlining what monk gives(With acrobat staff use)

I'm actually quite amused about how often those acrobat handwrap monks try to claim uber dps, how strong they is, yet they fall behind the kill count SO MUCH, die fast(Why i don't get survivability shouldn't be an issue but somehow it is with handwrap monks)

They are worth playing, both handwraps and staff monks, both have merit, but imo, with only 6-7 levels of monk, the staff build wins out in the end (read: lv 20 sticks, lv 18 sticks, greensteels) Simply because the monks are stuck using loot gen(ish) wraps and no greensteels, no souleater, no rhals equivalents.(This can be argued with alchemical, but for the time being not many have alchemical wraps)

I know for some reason, peoples ego's get bruised when they are shown that they are NOT king at whatever they want to be just cuz they tought they were. The fact is, an monklobat with a stick is just as effective and worthwhile as the handwraps build. It just comes down to personal preference.