AP and Feat questions

[mikarddo]

Greetings

A couple of questions concerning various AP and Feats I am hoping to learn about.

a) Which of our spells do the Smiting line enhance? DP, BB, Fire spells, Heals?

b) Spell crit and Spell crit mult. Apart from the ones needed for Radiant Servant II these seem costly for their effect. In which cases are they worth taking? (Smiting and Life both)

c) Energy of the Scholar or Efficient Meta Emp Heal. Efficient seems weak early on when total SP is low while Energy looks pretty decent. Does this change at higher level/SP or how do these work out in practice later on?

d) Wand and Scroll Mastery. How much is recommended for using Heal scrolls? I am thinking 3 levels as the 4th is pretty expensive for the effect.

e) Extra turns. I really like to burst undead at my present lvl 9 - but I am wondering how many turns are reasonable at higher levels. In particular I am pondering how many if any of the enhancements to take. I am thinking 2 or may be 3.

f) Life Magic. The 4th level looks pretty expensive so I am thinking I might only take 3 levels. Does this sound reasonable or is the 4th lvl well worth the price?

g) Spell Pen. This I cannot make up my mind about. With no past lives I am worried I might not be able to get enough Spell Pen to matter or if I do that it will be at too great a cost. Currently I am torn between spending 12 AP on +3 and a feat on Spell Pen for a total of +5 (or even take both Spell Pen feats dropping Extend) or completely going without Spell Pen using the 12 AP and the feat(s) for something else. The latter will obviously mean I need to rely on fewer spells when facing high SR mobs - mostly DP, Fire spells, BB and Cometfall as those seem to be without an SR check.

h) If I drop Spell Pen I am considering if I should also drop Heighten instead using those two feat for SF and GSF Evoc. DP would be unchanged, BB would be one DC worse but without the extra cost in SP, Firestorm would be one DC better without the extra cost in SP and Cometfall would be 3 DC worse from lack of Heighten as its Conj. I rather doubt that the lower SP cost makes it worthwhile but I would like to hear what others think.

[trog_star]

the folowing is simply my take on the questions asked.
i do not claim to be the eneffable sorce of all cleric knowlage.

if your a DC caster, read on.
if not, ignore me

Greetings

A couple of questions concerning various AP and Feats I am hoping to learn about.

a) Which of our spells do the Smiting line enhance? DP, BB, Fire spells, Heals?
alignment and light based spells. nimbus, DP, chaos hammer, etc

b) Spell crit and Spell crit mult. Apart from the ones needed for Radiant Servant II these seem costly for their effect. In which cases are they worth taking? (Smiting and Life both)
smiting lines are nice, your bound to get a few crits on harry. but relying on crits for heals is beyond silly

c) Energy of the Scholar or Efficient Meta Emp Heal. Efficient seems weak early on when total SP is low while Energy looks pretty decent. Does this change at higher level/SP or how do these work out in practice later on?
dont have either personally, i use the efficent maxamise enhancments

d) Wand and Scroll Mastery. How much is recommended for using Heal scrolls? I am thinking 3 levels as the 4th is pretty expensive for the effect.
ive got 2 ranks, a 3rd is not a bad idea if you can squese it in

e) Extra turns. I really like to burst undead at my present lvl 9 - but I am wondering how many turns are reasonable at higher levels. In particular I am pondering how many if any of the enhancements to take. I am thinking 2 or may be 3.
seriously? your running out?

f) Life Magic. The 4th level looks pretty expensive so I am thinking I might only take 3 levels. Does this sound reasonable or is the 4th lvl well worth the price?
i only take the requirements for the RS PrE

g) Spell Pen. This I cannot make up my mind about. With no past lives I am worried I might not be able to get enough Spell Pen to matter or if I do that it will be at too great a cost. Currently I am torn between spending 12 AP on +3 and a feat on Spell Pen for a total of +5 (or even take both Spell Pen feats dropping Extend) or completely going without Spell Pen using the 12 AP and the feat(s) for something else. The latter will obviously mean I need to rely on fewer spells when facing high SR mobs - mostly DP, Fire spells, BB and Cometfall as those seem to be without an SR check.
with 3 spell pen enhancments and boh spell pen feats it's rear for me to bounce a spell in non epic content

h) If I drop Spell Pen I am considering if I should also drop Heighten instead using those two feat for SF and GSF Evoc. DP would be unchanged, BB would be one DC worse but without the extra cost in SP, Firestorm would be one DC better without the extra cost in SP and Cometfall would be 3 DC worse from lack of Heighten as its Conj. I rather doubt that the lower SP cost makes it worthwhile but I would like to hear what others think.
i dont have either highten or SF evoke, BB and cometfall work just fine on non evaders

hope that helps

[WielderofGigantus]

Trog_star, divine casters don't get efficient maximize enhancements. Clerics get efficient empowered healing, and FvS get efficient empower.

[good_ole_corwin]

Greetings

A couple of questions concerning various AP and Feats I am hoping to learn about.

Would need more information about your build and aims, really. Do you want to heal endgame raids (on higher difficulties)? Solo a lot? CC and/or instakills? Melee? Judging by your questions however, the last one probably is not high up on your priorities list, so Im gonna assume that youre primarily a caster and healer build, just as my predecessor, even though my advice would be different from his:

a) Which of our spells do the Smiting line enhance? DP, BB, Fire spells, Heals?

Divine punishment, holy smite, searing light and just as the description says, other spells sealing alignment and/or light damage. So no BB (thats slashing, or rather untyped), no fire (apart from a half of flamestrike), no heals.

b) Spell crit and Spell crit mult. Apart from the ones needed for Radiant Servant II these seem costly for their effect. In which cases are they worth taking? (Smiting and Life both)

Depends on what you want to focus on primarily and how many APs you can afford. As has been said, crits on DP are nice to see. However I dont agree at all that the healing crits are useless, not on a cleric - dont ever forget the aura. Obviously you cant rely on crits when spot/tank healing, but if you max out the prayer of life line for a maximum chance and get a greater/major healing lore item (or greater arcane lore of course), thats 18% chance for a crit. That is a very powerful boost to the aura, because its 18% chance for a double or higher output every time it gives HPs to somebody. If the melee pile is around you, thats a whole lot of healing you wont need to waste SPs on. I wouldnt bother investing more into the prayer of incredible life line though - sure, pure math would possibly show that 2 ranks in both is more extra HPs healed per AP than 3 ranks in life and 1 in incredible life, but for me its not about the pure number of HPs, its about the number of targets that get critted in the aura.

c) Energy of the Scholar or Efficient Meta Emp Heal. Efficient seems weak early on when total SP is low while Energy looks pretty decent. Does this change at higher level/SP or how do these work out in practice later on?

Efficient metamagics arent probably worth the AP investment and you will get more extra casts (and more importantly, more versatility - efficient empower healing wont decrease the cost of BB, DP, instakills, but you can use the extra SPs to cast anything). Id say the first 2 ranks are well worth it on Energy, 3rd and especially 4th depend on the build and what other options youre considering.

d) Wand and Scroll Mastery. How much is recommended for using Heal scrolls? I am thinking 3 levels as the 4th is pretty expensive for the effect.

3 is enough IMHO, as you say, the 4th rank is very expensive. 2-3 is good to have especially for tank healing (especially if they have nice healing amp. Ive had a monk tank yesterday that was getting hit for 120 HPs by cure critical wands. I was getting bored as tank healer...)

e) Extra turns. I really like to burst undead at my present lvl 9 - but I am wondering how many turns are reasonable at higher levels. In particular I am pondering how many if any of the enhancements to take. I am thinking 2 or may be 3.

Depends entirely on how many turns you have to begin with. I love bursts with full metas though, and 2 extra bursts for 3 APs will definitely save you more than the 40 SPs you can get for 4th rank in Energy for 4 APs.

f) Life Magic. The 4th level looks pretty expensive so I am thinking I might only take 3 levels. Does this sound reasonable or is the 4th lvl well worth the price?

10% healing is about 20 HPs on each target for mass heal, 1-2 HPs per target per tick for the aura, etc. Id say its worth it.

g) Spell Pen. This I cannot make up my mind about. With no past lives I am worried I might not be able to get enough Spell Pen to matter or if I do that it will be at too great a cost. Currently I am torn between spending 12 AP on +3 and a feat on Spell Pen for a total of +5 (or even take both Spell Pen feats dropping Extend) or completely going without Spell Pen using the 12 AP and the feat(s) for something else. The latter will obviously mean I need to rely on fewer spells when facing high SR mobs - mostly DP, Fire spells, BB and Cometfall as those seem to be without an SR check.

h) If I drop Spell Pen I am considering if I should also drop Heighten instead using those two feat for SF and GSF Evoc. DP would be unchanged, BB would be one DC worse but without the extra cost in SP, Firestorm would be one DC better without the extra cost in SP and Cometfall would be 3 DC worse from lack of Heighten as its Conj. I rather doubt that the lower SP cost makes it worthwhile but I would like to hear what others think.

Now were getting to interesting questions. SR is an issue in Vale and its 3 raids (Shroud, VoD, HoX), bigger even in Shavarath and ToD. Not as big an issue in epics (except eChrono and eDA), save for drow - and you wont be penetrating drow on a first life no matter what you do. My opinion is that spell pen feats > spell focus feats for endgame, because if you can penetrate the SR, you can get a symbol of death or energy drain throughto lower their saves. I would also personally not take evocation SF. Many, many people will disagree with me, up to you to make up your mind - here are my recommendations, assuming you are a maxed WIS build:

Keep heighten, drop extend, take both spell pen feats, take 2 ranks of the spell pen enhancements, get either the goggles from house C or upgrade the Bracelet of madness from HoX for a spell pen IX item, and youre sitting at a respectable 28 spell pen, 30 if theres a FvS in the group. Enough for Shavarath, quite reliable in eChrono and eDA (I still havent gone around testing all the stuff for precise SR numbers, but I know that green devils in eDA have SR 33 - stuff in Shavarath even on elite seems to be under or around 30, with the exception of bezekiras, the kitties seem to be a few points higher).

Dont heighten BBs. If a regular mob saves, kite it through one more time. Evasion is not that common, but when it is, chances are the reflex on the mob will be high enough to save most of the time anyway, or theyre archers that you cant kite. Use the SPs saved by not heightening it for instakilling evasion mobs, who will in most cases have a weak fortitude save.

The reason you want heighten is not BB, its destruction, slay living, banishment, greater command, cometfall, even hold person, soundburst or holy smite (not for the damage, for the blindness). Learn which mobs are weak on what saves and you can contribute effectively to crowd control/damage mitigation. SF: Evocation doesnt really help you - evocation is BB (explained), holy smite (situationally nice, but not worth feats), flamestrike/firestorm (meh, so many fire resistant or immune mobs at endgame that youre almost always better off with BB), implosion (granted, loads of fun, best sound effect and death animation in the game IMHO - but untargetted and not actually instant, which makes it only situational - IMHO instakills are most important to get rid of casters, you know, that 1 mob in the back that you want to get rid of quickly, not wait 5 seconds to see if implo decides to target them or not). So if I were forced to take a SF feat, it would be necromancy - destruction and slay living are the better choice for instakills, bestow curse and symbol of pain are debuffs that work on bosses and can help your tank. But Id rather take spell pen without wiz past lives.

[mikarddo]

Great advice - much appreciated.

[trog_star]

Trog_star, divine casters don't get efficient maximize enhancements. Clerics get efficient empowered healing, and FvS get efficient empower.

right you are.
got my devine and my arcane mixed up.

ill go sit in the corner now

[mikarddo]

I am looking at the smiting / smiting crit / smiting crit mult enhancements. I am most likely only willing to spent 3 AP on these. As far as I can tell its mathematically best to take Smiting I + II skipping the crit and crit mult lines entirely rather than taking one level of each of smiting, crits and crit mult. Would that be a correct assesment or am I overlooking something? (not just that crits are 'fun')

My plan - optimized to be able to take RS and RS II right as I level and with zero regard to meleeing - looks like this. Comments are very welcome.

Level Name
1 Energy I, Life Magic I, Extra Turn 1
2 WIS I, Wand I, Smiting I
3 Racial Tough I, Divine Vitality I, Heal I
4 Extra Turn 2, Life Magic II, Heal II
5 Impr. Turn I
6 RS I, Hum Wis, Racial Tough II
7 CHA I
8 CHA II, Energy 2
9 Energy 3
10 Extra Turn 3, Heal crit, Heal crit mult
11 Smite II
12 RS II, WIS II
14 WIS III, Spell Pen I
15 Spell Pen II
17 Spell Pen III, Wand II
18 Life Magic III
19 Wand III
20 Capstone, Life Magic IV

Feat
1 Tough, Extend
3 Emp Heal
6 Max
9 Emp
12 Quicken
15 Spell Pen and swap Extend for Greater Spell Pen
18 Heighten

[trog_star]

swap extend for spell pen THEN take greter spell pen

[morticianjohn]

At lvl 20 take full smiting line including crits.

Just my opinion and preference. Also necessary for all caster eChrono or elite shroud. Low dot dps divines make me sad when I'm trying for a quick completion.

[good_ole_corwin]

You still havent given us your starting stats, pretty much impossible to comment without knowing those. Only things I can say at this point would be that spell pen III is probably too expensive, those 3 APs could go to smiting, and that I would recomment taking heighten earlier. Possibly:

1 Tough, Extend
3 Heighten
6 Emp Heal
9 Max
12 Emp
15 Spell Pen and swap Extend for Quicken
18 Greater Spell Pen

You can of course take heighten at lvl6 or even 9, I just love having max DC soundburst at low levels And you dont really have anything worth max/empowering until lvl9 anyway (DP, then at 11 BB)

[mikarddo]

You still havent given us your starting stats, pretty much impossible to comment without knowing those. Only things I can say at this point would be that spell pen III is probably too expensive, those 3 APs could go to smiting, and that I would recomment taking heighten earlier. Possibly:

1 Tough, Extend
3 Heighten
6 Emp Heal
9 Max
12 Emp
15 Spell Pen and swap Extend for Quicken
18 Greater Spell Pen

You can of course take heighten at lvl6 or even 9, I just love having max DC soundburst at low levels And you dont really have anything worth max/empowering until lvl9 anyway (DP, then at 11 BB)

Thank you for the reply.

My starting stats are: Wis 18, Con 14, Cha 14, Str 10, Int 10, Dex 8
I have used a +2 tome to all stats. I am currently level 10. All level ups in Wis.

MyDDO at http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/mikarto/

I wasnt sure if I needed all the Spell Pen I could get hence spending 6 AP on the 3rd despite the cost) or I would be 'ok' without that. Based on your comment I may just reconsider those 6 AP.

[good_ole_corwin]

Then Id ditch the 2 CHA enhancements too. Turning really isnt an issue (nuking with bursts is usually the better choice), so all it gives you is 1 extra turn attempt for 6 APs.

Spell pen III yes or no, well, depends a lot on the content you have available. If you have either house C quests (goggles) or Vale + harbinger of madness + reign of madness (so you can unlock HoX bracers), you can get a spell pen IX item and thus get to total spell pen 28 by cap at which point you shouldnt feel the need for the enhancement. Not entirely sure how badly you would feel with 26 in comparison, but enhancements can be so easily redone that Id say try it out and youll see.

[mikarddo]

Thanks, I am VIP so access isnt an issue.

The CHA is taken as prereqs for RS II though - but I suppose I could swap those for some other prereqs. Any suggestions?

[good_ole_corwin]

The CHA is taken as prereqs for RS II though

Ah, an oversight on my end, I just usually go with the Sovereign host faith line. A little bit extra melee with long swords and unyielding sovereignty is situationally very powerful. But I guess its no biggie if you go with the charisma. My bad