Solo bard

[rapt]

Are bards a good class to solo with? Looking for somthing that solo's real well but when it's time to group it's good to go... Don't want a cleric.
Thanks for any replys.

[Gorbadoc]

The Classic Rocker style of build is great at soloing and great in a group.

You'll have to adapt the details to your play style. For example, do you max your strength, or do you drop one or two points so you can buff up intelligence for skill points? I myself rolled a half orc pure bard with the full THF line before I knew about The Classic Rocker, and the build works well.

The build philosophy goes something like this:
Pure bards get some great support abilities for a modest build investment. Grab the low-hanging fruit of support abilities, but then focus everything else on being competent in melee. The details vary depending on just how good you want to be at melee versus each support ability.

When soloing, you'll handle a bit like a fighter; your self-buffs and self-healing should bridge most of the gap between you and an actual fighter.

You'll also have great crowd control. Fascinate will be worthwhile around level 5 or 7 (you need a decent +perform item, plus you need to play around with the ability to learn its timing and AoE). Level 11-ish gets you Music of the Dead and Music of Makers (I personally think it's worth forking out the AP for the prerequisite Extra Song I-IV, particularly when this build is so well-suited to using these songs). Finally, you get Otto's Irresistible Dance at level 16.

[rapt]

I was actually looking at somthing like that, Not really interested in ever filling a healer spot, ever. Self heals = great. Just want to be able to solo pretty easily throughout all the levels and still be able do the bard stuff in groups.
I'm actually fairly new. Highest character is a monk lvl 18 so nothing good unlocked yet.

[rapt]

would you recommend a two hander with this build?

[Gorbadoc]

Yes, the whole point of the build is that two-handers are relatively light on the feat and ability score requirements. You don't actually need the THF line to get decent DPS (though it does help), and you can dump dexterity-- contrast that against a TWF build, where optimizing for DPS requires 17 (base + tome) dexterity. Here are some more details for a classic rocker-style build:

Pump strength for to-hit and damage (10-16 build points plus all levelups).
Invest heavily in constitution for hit points (10 build points).
Dump dexterity and wisdom.
Intelligence is optional, according to how many skills you want to pump*.
Take just enough charisma so that it isn't annoying-- you need 16 TOTAL charisma to cast level 6 spells, so technically you can get away with 6 base (it's possible on a half orc or warforged), a +4 tome, and a +6 item. I recommend 12 starting charisma, though, so you can actually enjoy the eighty jillion hours of play time it will take you to get a +4 tome.

For feats, on my half orc I took:
Toughness
Power Attack
Weapon Focus: Slashing (required for War Chanter)
THF
Improved Critical: Slashing
ITHF
GTHF

I now suspect I'd be better off going human and grabbing metamagics in favor of the THF line, but that's one of those minor tweak-to-suit-your-tastes decisions. DPS goes down; spot healing ability goes up. You can still fight an orthon and keep yourself alive either way.

*: As for skills, the not-at-all-optional ones are:
UMD
Concentration (Scrolls CAN be interrupted. And since my personal DPS will tend to be the lowest among the melee builds in a party, it makes sense that I be the one to step back and start scroll healing when something goes wrong in a quest).
Perform (governs your Fascinate DC)

Other skills are good, and personally I went with a 12 intelligence to snag the ones I wanted. Some people do take a lower intelligence, though.


As for specific weapons:
Early on, I recommend Carnifex, though any two-hander with decent-looking numbers will do. Use Master's Touch for proficiency. If you find yourself having trouble with whatever weapon you get your hands on, note that you're guaranteed a Carnifex in the Delera's end reward if you run the chain three times. And, since the weapon is bound to account, you can (if you really want to) farm for it on another character.

In your early teens, (by then you'll have Improved Critical, and Carnifex will be feeling outdated), I recommend the Lordsmarch Plaza and Attack on Stormreach series for the Vampiric Cleaver. It takes a bit of effort to manufacture, but it's a fantastic soloing weapon. Note that, if The Bloody Cleaver doesn't want to drop for you in Frame Work, you can buy/trade with another player for one or get one from the auction house, since it only binds when you equip it. Be sure to play nice and mention that you're looking for it, too; many players will pass it to a party member if they don't need it, because sometimes being nice to people is more important than plat (or, they just don't realize that it only binds on equip). The other two components will usually come up as end rewards from the Attack on Stormreach chain, and they're guaranteed to come up every third runthrough of the series.

Keep an eye on the auction house for an ML: 10 or ML: 12 Paralyzing two-handed weapon. In situations where a paralyzer works, it REALLY works.

Later, I like Insanity as an easy-to-acquire weapon with good damage dice. Later still, Terror has some cool effects and is highly-likely to be offered as an end reward every third run of Mindsunder.

As long as I'm mercilessly editing this post, I may as well mention: Fully upgraded double-shard greensteel is better than the stuff I've mentioned above, BUT it requires lots and lots of farming to get fully upgraded double-shard greensteel.

[goodspeed]

I made this build though I altered it slightly for some extra hit and hp going with a 14/6 splash. Though later if warchanter got a 3rd tier and you went dwarf or even human i'd stay pure gaining the 3rd tier pre, capstone eh might splash 2 lvs, and get the full steward line racially for the extra hp.

Honestly after summer comes with the changes that are supposed to occur I can never see hp as an issue for near any melee build. Hp will be all to easy to come by in troves.

But anyway if you want solo this is it. You have self heals, you have umd for wand/scroll heals. You have haste you have rage you have displacement and you have your songs. With extend your good, with something like empower heal or maximize as well you are the survivor. You don't need the others.

[Gorbadoc]

I made this build though I altered it slightly for some extra hit and hp going with a 14/6 splash.

Yeah, that's more than a slight alteration; that's a completely different build. Splashing is an option on a bard (though, frankly, I only ever recommend it if you're also getting Evasion out of the deal). Just know what you lose. I covered this recently in another thread, and nothing has changed since then. The following was written in the context of a rogue splash; just pretend the first paragraph says something about bonus feats and a couple extra hit points instead of trap skills and sneak attack.

If you splash rogue and decide to pump trap skills, you can take more than 2 rogue levels. Note that you get extra sneak attack dice along the way, as well as the haste boost. Just be aware of what you lose with each bard level you dump.

If you're ignoring the leveling process, here are some breakpoints for a melee bard. I'll try to list what's important.

Anyything less than 20 and you're losing:

• Spell Pen (22 at level 20 with no particular gear-- so you have half a chance to beat SR with Otto's Irresistible).
• The final +1/+1 on Inspire Courage
• Spell points (every little bit helps)
• Songs per rest (songs generally stop being tight when you're in your teens, but, still, every bit helps)
• Caster level on your Cure Crit, Mass Cure Light, and Mass Cure Mod spells (1 pre-multipliers point of healing per level-- every little bit helps).
• Caster level on your spells with durations. Some people go 16/2/2 bard/fighter/rogue for extra feats, but they then pick up Extend Spell. The idea isn't completely crazy, but it is a little counterproductive.

Bard levels 17, 18, and 19 get the "every little bit helps" stuff and some additional spell slots, but nothing groundbreaking.

Anything less than 16 and you're also losing:

• Otto's Irresistible Dance
• Mass Cure Moderate Wounds

Anything less than 15 and you're also losing:

• Inspire Heroics

Anything less than 14 and you're also losing:

• +1/+1 to Inspire Courage

Then, if you keep dropping levels, you start losing Inspired Attack and Inspired Damage ranks, further hurting your Inspire Courage. Spells keep getting dropped. Eventually, you have few enough songs that losing one song per bard level makes a huge difference.

Note the caveat about ignoring the leveling process. I find that, on a pure bard, new bard abilities are freaking awesome at the level you get them. Add a couple splash levels, and you delay those abilities. It's not that Greater Heroism is bad if you get it a couple levels later. It's just that it would have been really nice to have the spell a couple levels sooner. As a rule, if you see someone claim that bards don't get much past level 16, assume they're talking about a capped bard only-- that they don't care how strong or weak the build is while leveling. That, or they never actually played a pure bard, so they don't know any better.

Regarding the claim that fighter levels get you additional attack bonus, be careful. While feats and enhancements do push a Kensai1's attack bonus above that of a pure bard, attack bonus is only a proxy for more important numbers. Ultimately, party survival and party DPS are what matter most. A pure bard will have better healing, better crowd control, and a better party-wide DPS boost than a splashed bard. This is true both because extra bard levels provide these things directly, and because claiming those fighter bonuses requires diverting action points away from support abilities.

Of course, that's all moot if you plan to play like a fighter. Good Classic Rockers don't play like fighters, though; the whole point of the build is that it can run crowd control and spot healing between decent-DPS sword swings.

[Perspicacity]

Yeah, that's more than a slight alteration; that's a completely different build. Splashing is an option on a bard (though, frankly, I only ever recommend it if you're also getting Evasion out of the deal). Just know what you lose. I covered this recently in another thread, and nothing has changed since then. The following was written in the context of a rogue splash; just pretend the first paragraph says something about bonus feats and a couple extra hit points instead of trap skills and sneak attack.

Note the caveat about ignoring the leveling process. I find that, on a pure bard, new bard abilities are freaking awesome at the level you get them. Add a couple splash levels, and you delay those abilities. It's not that Greater Heroism is bad if you get it a couple levels later. It's just that it would have been really nice to have the spell a couple levels sooner. As a rule, if you see someone claim that bards don't get much past level 16, assume they're talking about a capped bard only-- that they don't care how strong or weak the build is while leveling. That, or they never actually played a pure bard, so they don't know any better.

Regarding the claim that fighter levels get you additional attack bonus, be careful. While feats and enhancements do push a Kensai1's attack bonus above that of a pure bard, attack bonus is only a proxy for more important numbers. Ultimately, party survival and party DPS are what matter most. A pure bard will have better healing, better crowd control, and a better party-wide DPS boost than a splashed bard. This is true both because extra bard levels provide these things directly, and because claiming those fighter bonuses requires diverting action points away from support abilities.

Of course, that's all moot if you plan to play like a fighter. Good Classic Rockers don't play like fighters, though; the whole point of the build is that it can run crowd control and spot healing between decent-DPS sword swings.

Gorbadoc makes a valid point you have to compare what you gain to what you lose. I played a spellsinger pure to 20 (I since TRed to an arti) that was really CC focused and I can tell you if you want good CC you have to stay pure, DCs are everything and like gorbadoc said anyone who says bard offers nothing late game hasn't played one, with one caveat: End game bards have a great deal to offer if your going CC. The bard capstone is one of the best in the game if your going for a SS or virt but it has virtualy nothing to offer a warchanter. For combat focused bards there really is nothing past level 16 for them and very little in level 15. That's why splashing on a WC is so common. You lose almost nothing and gain some cool abilities (Evasion and traping from rogue, rage from barb, feats from fighter)

If you want to go for more of a combat / buff build go WC with a 2 rogue and 2barb splash on a WC is really nice and fun. Evasion alone makes the rogue levels worth it and the WC PrE has great synergy with barb. Your DPS will be very nice you can wear medium armor with zero spell failure self heal like a champ and stand next to a fighter or pally and hold your own and since your DPs will be ever so slightly behind a main DPSer like a barb or figher they will hold aggro allowing you to capitalize on the 1d6 sneak damage you get from rogue and if your really feeling adventurous you could try 12 bard / 6 barb / 2 rogue.

In short, if you want CC stay pure, if you want to swing an axe splash away.

[Mackem]

I have recently decided to get a bard past life on one of my characters and since I had plenty of khopeshes to his name already, I did a TWF version of a human 16 bard / 2 fighter / 2 rogue splash picking extend and khopesh feats and I was able to solo almost any elite quest at level up to his current level 12.

If I did not already have TWF gear I'd surely make a THF version as suggested above. Warchanters are quite decent in killing stuff and all the advice from above posters is solid. I was pleasantly surprised by the warchanter soloability compared to another spellsinger alt I used to bring to cap earlier