No empower

[LeLoric]

Empower and Maximize don't multiply, instead they add together.

For example, say that we have maximize on giving us 200% of our normal spell damage.
Now we add empower. You might think that it would add 50% of 200%, making it 300%.

Instead it adds a flat 50%, taking us to 250%. This is an increase of 25% compared to just running maximize (which most use as a baseline. Maximize is that good. )

It's statistical manipulation used to make empower seem less.

It could just as easily be said that empower gives a full 50% for 150% total dmg and maximize only adds 66% onto that.

Empower is that good its only 16% behind maximize but at cheaper sp costs

See what I did there?

[pSINNa]

My cleric - runs with heighen/maximise/empower/empower heal on at all times, i only really switch quicken on and off as the situation demands.

Same for my fvs (he also has extend and again has that switched on situationaly).

My Wizard, same as my fvs. (no empower heal obviously)

My Arti, same as my Wizard.

When i was doing sorc lives (don't have a permanent sorc) same as my Wizard.

Yup, if it has damage spells, then i run empower and maximise permanently as soon as i hit around lvl 15 or so - by then they're all wearing greensteel and raid loot to boost sp, knowing when and where to cast being better for conservation for me then turning off potential damage when i want it.

My two cents, Coit out~

[good_ole_corwin]

Wizards have a lot of feats but they don't have that many, especially first lifers that need Spell Pen. For instance, my wizard went:
Mental Toughness - AM pre-req
Heighten, SF/GSF Enchant, Spell Pen, Greater SP - CC
SF/GSF Necro (also Spell Pens) - instant kills
SF Conjuration - Web SLA
Maximize - DPS
Toughness, Quicken - stay alive

Which would you drop for Empower?

One of the greater focuses. +/- 1 to DCs of your spells means that out of every 20 things you try to CC or instakill, you get/lose 1 success, statistically speaking. So, 1 less trash mob out of every 20 (making it about 5 mobs per usual quest?), or 25% extra DPS on bosses?

[OsOscarius]

(EDIT: As always I'm a slowpoke. This post is aimed at LeLoric. )

Sure, that works. I'm not saying that empower is bad in any sort of way. Like I said, I would like to have it on my wizzy.

I personally see maximize as a must for any sort of offensive caster, it's simply great for the single feat and the spell cost.
Also, the spell cost means that it will be more sp-efficient than empower for the majority of the spells that you will cast.
Meaning that you will most likely never run *only* empower on a spell.

Therefore, I look at it like this: "What will empower give me on my current build?" and the answer is then 25% extra damage.
Or: "What's the difference between running empower+maximize vs. only running Maximize". The answer there being 25% extra or 20% less damage.

It IS good so I promise; I'll take it as soon I get my DC's/Spell pen to reasonable levels.

[voodoogroves]

I'm one of those crazy guys that rarely turns off empower or maximize. Or Heighten. Or quicken.

I sometimes turn it off if I'm going to slow-burn epic mobs down from a distance (like, say, scorpion room in eADQ) and I want to conserve SP somewhat. Otherwise, it's basically always on.

[Kinerd]

I wouldnt take an arcane without empower into shroud. Those with Ill take as many as I can get. It's like melees without power attack.

This is pretty baffling. Items and enhancements are much more important for spell DPS than Empower. Arcane 1 gets 50% Manip and Superior Element 5 clickies and does 302 DPS before crits. Arcane 2 only gets 20% Manip and Greater Potency but throws on Empower and does 267 DPS. The feat's contributions are just not big enough to overpower other decisions.

If you're saying you would only take an arcane with Empower and sufficient enhancements, why? You're not beating 300 DPS with most melee puggers.

It's statistical manipulation used to make empower seem less.

It could just as easily be said that empower gives a full 50% for 150% total dmg and maximize only adds 66% onto that.

Empower is that good its only 16% behind maximize but at cheaper sp costs

See what I did there?

It is most certainly not. Everyone agrees that Maximize is worth getting and using. What is at issue is whether Empower is also worth getting. It only makes sense to use Maximize as the baseline.

Your order of operation would only apply if everyone agreed Empower was worth getting and using, and we were in disagreement over whether Maximize was also worth getting. It's not "statistical manipulation", it's using the numbers relevant to our conversation.

[Kinerd]

One of the greater focuses. +/- 1 to DCs of your spells means that out of every 20 things you try to CC or instakill, you get/lose 1 success, statistically speaking. So, 1 less trash mob out of every 20 (making it about 5 mobs per usual quest?), or 25% extra DPS on bosses?

My DC stuff is about 4-6 times as important as my boss DPS, though. My wizard is the only one in the group doing CC (sometimes a monk type chips in), is one of two or three doing instant kills, everyone does boss DPS. There's also a great post here by k1ngpin that puts DC increases in a different light: how much more likely am I to get every monster in any given group by increasing DC? It's not just a question of pride, getting every or nearly every monster is frequently of tangible benefit.

[BladeTricks]

Empower is a no-brainer on any arcane. In 1 feat, you get an instant 25% more boss DPS. Divines have other tasks during epic/raid boss beatdown. Arcanes on the other hand...

That's even before the fact that Sorcerers don't pay a sp more for Empower on their SLAs.

[trog_star]

on my cleric i run empower for bursts, BB, cometfall and DP

dont have empower on my lvl 14 PM yet

[good_ole_corwin]

My DC stuff is about 4-6 times as important as my boss DPS, though. My wizard is the only one in the group doing CC (sometimes a monk type chips in), is one of two or three doing instant kills, everyone does boss DPS. There's also a great post here by k1ngpin that puts DC increases in a different light: how much more likely am I to get every monster in any given group by increasing DC? It's not just a question of pride, getting every or nearly every monster is frequently of tangible benefit.

Trash mobs dont come in groups of hundreds at the same time, the difference 1 DC makes will be 1-2 trash mobs CCed or not at a time, tops. Thats nothing, unless your group has deeper problems than you missing 1 DC from your theoretical maximum, killing a trash mob is a question of seconds, no real danger to the party. Bosses pose several orders of magnitude greater danger than 1-2 trash mobs in MOST situations and 25% difference in your DPS there can make a significant contribution.

[WielderofGigantus]

Empower and Maximize don't multiply, instead they add together.

For example, say that we have maximize on giving us 200% of our normal spell damage.
Now we add empower. You might think that it would add 50% of 200%, making it 300%.

Instead it adds a flat 50%, taking us to 250%. This is an increase of 25% compared to just running maximize (which most use as a baseline. Maximize is that good. )

Going by that logic, Maximize is only adds 60%.

[LordPiglet]

People don't take more than one caster because they are uninformed.

Lol, I got into a disagreement with sorc (I was on my paly) about how many arcanes should be in shroud. I was the one in favor of more arcanes...

[SirValentine]

Do you run empower 24/7 on your nuking spells? if yes, on which chars?

Yes, on Clr, Wiz, FvS.

I did at one point think about (and eventually reject) a build that skips Maximize and Empower purely in favor of DCs. I also did a build that did skip both Maximize and Empower, in favor of melee.

But I'm not that interested in half measures; either I'm going to forego nuking, or I'm going to be dang good at it, which wants both feats.

I don't buy the claim not using Empower is somehow more efficient; faster killing is more efficient. Kiting stuff around for a long time because your spell DPS is deliberately sub-par isn't what I'd call efficient.

[Faent]

Um, what feats did you take if you don't have room for Empower? That doesn't make sense. Every wizard has room for Empower.

[LeLoric]

This is pretty baffling. Items and enhancements are much more important for spell DPS than Empower. Arcane 1 gets 50% Manip and Superior Element 5 clickies and does 302 DPS before crits. Arcane 2 only gets 20% Manip and Greater Potency but throws on Empower and does 267 DPS. The feat's contributions are just not big enough to overpower other decisions.

If you're saying you would only take an arcane with Empower and sufficient enhancements, why? You're not beating 300 DPS with most melee puggers.It is most certainly not. Everyone agrees that Maximize is worth getting and using. What is at issue is whether Empower is also worth getting. It only makes sense to use Maximize as the baseline.

Your order of operation would only apply if everyone agreed Empower was worth getting and using, and we were in disagreement over whether Maximize was also worth getting. It's not "statistical manipulation", it's using the numbers relevant to our conversation.

Oh its still manipulation any way you cut it. Just as mie was. Maximize is an additional multiplier just as empower is. To count it as baseline is not really justifyable when comparing the other unless you were forced to take maximize.

The consensus among players is take empower look at every high end caster build in the game right now they all have empower. If you don't you are not capable of putting out dmg as much as someone that does. You are "gimp" when it comes to dmg dealing. To be honest before this thread I didnt really think anyone other than a brand new player would consider not taking empower.

Your dps numbers are incorrect as there is no factor for spell dc. If your talking just no save dots then you aren't dps'ing right for many fights. All but a handful of raid /epic fights generally aren't long enough to make dots worthwhile. Most of those aren't long enough that you can't mix in some other spells. I find you cut melees pretty short on thios too especially since for normal runs at least many raid bosses are running at sub 50% fort.

Most people against empower in this thread cite sp efficiency. For trash mob nuking it should be judged as casts per kill. Fact is with empower on you will kill something almost always in at least 1 less cast per kill. This makes the sp efficiency you lost worthless.

Truth is most mobs are balanced against empower and maximize combined. If using single shot aoe blasts with empower you can often take out a large group in 2-3 casts. Good crits can single shot mobs. This is usually the same throughout the levelling process as hp scale pretty well with max and empowered spells. Without empower you take 4-5 casts. Crits can lower this some but your crits are multiplicatively less without empower.

Resistance is a huge factor in empower's favor too. Many mobs in this game have resistances. Empower helps power through those so much better then multiple casts at lower sp usage. Firewall/icestorm/acid rain are generally useless on many more mobs without empower than with.

As a pale master your best and really only big heal is enough reason to take empower just on it's own. Wf arcanes with max/empowered repair critical as a combo to recon are so much more reliably durable. Ask any wf arcane in epic lob while kiting dogs in a rain of blades how important this can be.

And lastly once again the most precious resource in this game is time. Everyone has a limited amount of time to play and the faster you can achieve things the better you are at conserving time. Empower is better than any other choice at conserving time other than maximize for an arcane caster.

[fuzzy1guy]

Redacted

[OsOscarius]

Um, what feats did you take if you don't have room for Empower? That doesn't make sense. Every wizard has room for Empower.

Currently, as a first-lifer WF PM:

Heighten
Maximize
Quicken
SF/GSF Necro
Toughness


These can't really be dropped.


Spell pen/Greater spell pen


As a first lifer this is also rather hard to drop, dropping one can be easier once I TR


Insightful reflexes
Extend
Mental Toughness
SF:Enchant


Optional things, listed roughly in the way that I'd like to keep them.

I've been loving having a good reflex save.
Extend is sheer luxury. I hate short auras.
Mental toughness is for unlocking Wraith aswell as getting the option to re-spec to AM if I want. The 100sp is just gravy (though I like it.)
I might just drop enchant once I get my +2 exc. int. The problem is that many groups will want the wizzy to CC "properly" and my current low DC's don't really help...

[Faent]

Currently, as a first-lifer WF PM:

Drop Mental Toughness. That's obvious.

[pHo3nix]

All my casters run with all their metas active 24/7, except quicken (and extend on my PM) for buffs, never got any sp issues (no, i do not use sp pots, i hate them ).

Empower is like PA for melees, a must have.

It all depends on your playstyle: if you unleash your spells on every single mob you see then you are going to run out of sp pretty fast and you are inefficient; if you zerg to red alert and then start killing then you'll see that empower is great and really sp (and time) efficient

[Infant]

All my casters run with all their metas active 24/7, except quicken (and extend on my PM) for buffs, never got any sp issues (no, i do not use sp pots, i hate them ).

Empower is like PA for melees, a must have.

It all depends on your playstyle: if you unleash your spells on every single mob you see then you are going to run out of sp pretty fast and you are inefficient; if you zerg to red alert and then start killing then you'll see that empower is great and really sp (and time) efficient

I can imagine that turning Empower off for DOTs makes sense for some long endurance fights where you run out of SP. Maybe elite Shroud?

Infant