diversify mob to-hit and savings

[a.out]

Hey.

One day, i'd love to see some update which would give low-midrange AC and DC a bit more value. I think it could relativeley easy be done with your 'dungen editor' - drop a bunch of low to-hit, high damage groups here, some low-save, higher to-hit groups there, and a few specialists ( high saves where a 'fixed' archmage could shine AND/OR high to-hit where monks/stalward defenders could prove themselves ) inbetween. Done.

Basically: more mob diversity please ? Also, mix different CR's of same mob types, maybe even randomized. Something like "60% non-red/orange kobolts of that particular quest may between CR 10-12, 30% 13-15 and 10% 16-18"

No need to change AC/save system to use all kinds of non PnP mechanics like some are proposing.

[a.out]

This would also help making non-arcanes feel more useful again in a couple of epic-quests ...
If mob saves where between something like 20 and 50 in one quest, spamming wail and circle would always leave something to do for the non wizards or maybe even CC again ( e.g. lower will, higher fort ).

But i fear, most will just enjoy their roflstomping, crit-immune, dance-immune, stun-immune, x-immune, self-healing pale-masters ( why the heck does something like that even gets highest DC ? ) instead of a challange

[Kmnh]

The mobs are fairly diverse already. If you run the vale with an AC in the 50s, the devils will almost always hit you, but troglodytes and the like miss you often.

Epic is supposed to be about facing mobs that are a lot more powerful than your character should, AC doesn't work in there and I hope it never will.

[a.out]

Why should AC "not work there" ?
By this analogy, well .. Its epic .. so, your to-hit should also not work ...
your spells should always be absorbed ...

[Kmnh]

Why should AC "not work there" ?
By this analogy, well .. Its epic .. so, your to-hit should also not work ...
your spells should always be absorbed ...

It used to be like that. Mobs were deathwarded and had serious saves. You had to use tactics and debuffs to make your crowd control land and it would get most of the mobs, but usually not all of them. People whined and whined and the devs added the minion debuff, and then removed the deathward. They even added a no-save kill spell.

[a.out]

It used to be like that. Mobs were deathwarded and had serious saves. You had to use tactics and debuffs to make your crowd control land and it would get most of the mobs, but usually not all of them. People whined and whined and the devs added the minion debuff, and then removed the deathward. They even added a no-save kill spell.

Sounds about right to me. The important thing is, that the system has to allow you to use certain tactics to circumvent those epic defenses.
My point is, that as soon as i pass a certain level, the so-called 1dimensional cookie-cutter build is getting more and more relevant, while anything else is just getting more useless. People start to put up LFM's for those cutters and declining others. This is something I feel should be considered a problem and be on a top-issues list.

Maybe it has something to do with the underlying PnP system. A d20 is only a d20. If your bonus ( and that from the mobs ) is a triple or quadruple of that, chances do not really matter and you either can tank or cannot. Nothing inbetween. On top on that are those past lifes. DC increase is something you have to do very carefully in PnP. But i don't really care where the problem comes from, i pay for a game with different classes and possibilities and while i accept that build A is not as efficient as build B in a certain scenario, i would atleast expect *some* role for me.

[Kmnh]

Sounds about right to me. The important thing is, that the system has to allow you to use certain tactics to circumvent those epic defenses.
My point is, that as soon as i pass a certain level, the so-called 1dimensional cookie-cutter build is getting more and more relevant, while anything else is just getting more useless. People start to put up LFM's for those cutters and declining others. This is something I feel should be considered a problem and be on a top-issues list.

Maybe it has something to do with the underlying PnP system. A d20 is only a d20. If your bonus ( and that from the mobs ) is a triple or quadruple of that, chances do not really matter and you either can tank or cannot. Nothing inbetween. On top on that are those past lifes. DC increase is something you have to do very carefully in PnP. But i don't really care where the problem comes from, i pay for a game with different classes and possibilities and while i accept that build A is not as efficient as build B in a certain scenario, i would atleast expect *some* role for me.

Many updates ago, Turbine added the minion debuff and the archmage PrE. Casters could now land a mass hold or disco ball on any pack of melee mobs, there was no need to kite stuff around in firewalls or to spam otto's irresistable dance.

Instead of checking which casters had the skill to evaluate which mobs to kite and which to debuff and CC, they started checking which casters had enough gear to always land their spells. LFMs would say "need caster with enchantment DC of 40 or more", and caster players respecced their builds to maximize their DCs. I was farming sands epics on a sorcerer with 407 HP and a DC of 36, and suddenly I wasn't cut for epics anymore, I had to go with the crowd and TR into an archmage.

If you make AC work on epics, the same thing will happen to melees. Quests will be a gear check. LFMs will pop up saying: "Need fighters with 90+ AC", and all builds will look the same. I dont want that to happen. Do you?

[WangoFett]

Answer 1: Give mobs iterative attacks with increasing penalties (e.g. +0, -5, -10, -15 on to-hit rolls)
Answer B: Increase diversity of mobs to-hit bonuses (perhaps mobs attack bonuses in an encounter are not diverse enough currently), also promotes strategy options (take out the high to-hit dudes first or the low to-hit dudes with high damage? Easier to code, but still interesting)
Answer III: Increase base damage taken by 25/50/75/100% if the mobs attack roll beats your AC by 20/30/40/50 (easier to code, still effective, less interesting)
Answer 4: Add a chance of a debuff or adverse effect applying on a hit, with the percentage chance being a function of the amount your AC has been exceeded by (e.g. chance = ((attack roll - AC - 20) / 2). Debuffs can range from a short stun effect, knockdown, ability damage or just boring old extra damage.

All of these would increase the range of useful AC without messing with the d20 game and doesn't make anyone invulnerable, but does encourage some characters to at least get token AC to stop being hit with extra damage.

[a.out]

Many updates ago, Turbine added the minion debuff and the archmage PrE. Casters could now land a mass hold or disco ball on any pack of melee mobs, there was no need to kite stuff around in firewalls or to spam otto's irresistable dance.

Instead of checking which casters had the skill to evaluate which mobs to kite and which to debuff and CC, they started checking which casters had enough gear to always land their spells. LFMs would say "need caster with enchantment DC of 40 or more", and caster players respecced their builds to maximize their DCs. I was farming sands epics on a sorcerer with 407 HP and a DC of 36, and suddenly I wasn't cut for epics anymore, I had to go with the crowd and TR into an archmage.

If you make AC work on epics, the same thing will happen to melees. Quests will be a gear check. LFMs will pop up saying: "Need fighters with 90+ AC", and all builds will look the same. I dont want that to happen. Do you?

Well - with 90+ AC, you can certainly tank epics.
And no, i do not want that to happen, ofc - but it already happened .. i've seen quests stating caster needed, DC 45+. And it happened exactly because there is no diversity in quests nor randomization. Everyone knows what to expect and where. And everyone knows that saves are only +-5, so if you know big-fat-farm-quests has xx DC, you can just max it to xx and rely on that forever. Turbine could counter that by just again raising saves but that can't be it ...

[Kmnh]

Well - with 90+ AC, you can certainly tank epics.

No you can't. I mean, you can, but you will take about as much damage as a raging barb with 6 AC. And that is a good thing.

I TR'd my wizard back into a sorcerer because I was bored of the instakill fest. Now I mostly run epics on my melee with no caster or with newbie ones, so the mobs actually fight back and deal damage. Make AC viable on epics, and there will be no content left for me to run, except a few raids.

[a.out]

No you can't. I mean, you can, but you will take about as much damage as a raging barb with 6 AC. And that is a good thing.

I TR'd my wizard back into a sorcerer because I was bored of the instakill fest. Now I mostly run epics on my melee with no caster or with newbie ones, so the mobs actually fight back and deal damage. Make AC viable on epics, and there will be no content left for me to run, except a few raids.

Interesting, last time i checked you could atleast tank the crowd. If that stat now is completeley removed from end-game .. well, that sucks even more ...

Just rework it to have only 1 character stat aside from appearance, shall we ? Damage. Makes coding a heaven on earth.

[Kmnh]

AC works on all elite raids and quests. It only doesn't work on epics. There is a lot of endgame content for you to run, and I don't think turbine will release more epic quests anytime soon. You will be fine

[EvilI]

Why should AC "not work there" ?
By this analogy, well .. Its epic .. so, your to-hit should also not work ...
your spells should always be absorbed ...

Good point. OP 1, respondent 0.