Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[IronClan]

Wrong.

FotM builds arise due to someone noticing a synergy of abilities that they hadn't previously, or a set that addresses new demands of recent content better than other class mixes do, or have, or in a different way.

You just called me wrong and then went on to reword my stated reason for why FotM builds pop up. So it's a little hard to take your post seriously. Adding another reason why they pop up in addition to the one I stated and you repeated is not how contradiction works. And does not prove me wrong.

Wrong.

Multiclassing has been a fixture of DDO since its inception. Years ago we had the batman builds (fighter/paladin/rogue), and we've had the Tukaw builds, the Hurtlocker, Big Rock Candy, Blitz, and many, many others. The quality and type of multiclassing shifts as the DDO metagame shifts. EDs make multiclassing a little easier, as you note, but we've had deep multiclasses for basically the entirety of the game's life.

You do understand the saying "exceptions don't disprove rules"? In most cases the "deep multiclassing" (mostly deep splashes of Melee class combo's) you're talking about are FotM builds (that in some cases lasted a long time due to the derth of content in the past) and in some cases the direct results of flukish class splits due to the low cap, where going pure was never a real choice in the first place. Not getting ANY perks for the last few class levels and thus taking a few levels of something else is hardly a multiclassing choice, with an legit opportunity cost. It's a FotM build that lasts until they made those few levels better or raised the cap and made the new levels worth taking.

A lot of old builds (such as the Batman build) were a direct result of exploiting a poorly implemented (or not at all implemented) PnP rule allowing someone to have evasion in heavy armor for example. Not unlike the current "hey 10,000 Stars works with arrows" Monkchers, they should never have existed in the first place. If you can describe a class split as "it would be stupid not to do this if you want to be a good ____fill in the blank then it's not much of a choice.

Let's not pretend your brief list of exceptions is somehow proof of a thriving history of great multiclassing choices.

As for multiclassing hurting trapping and double-strike...you're, again, Wrong.

Trapping has zero reliance on rogue (or artificer) levels after the 1st, and it's entirely possible to build a better trapper on a non-rogue with a 1 or 2 level rogue dip than on a pure rogue. An 18 wizard/2 rogue or artificer is probably better at traps than a pure rogue.

Really how is an INT specced Mechanic lower in trap DC's to a Wiz that doesn't get Mechanic PrE (+4 DC's +4 trap saves) or Rogue capstone (+2 INT)? OR Wiz Captone (-2 INT) Also let me know how a 2 splash gets improved evasion?

What you said is wrong, as in ACTUALLY wrong, as in I have just objectively proven you to be wrong. Unless you can produce about 7 DC worth of trap skills that a 18/2 Wiz can get that no Rogue has access to (so far as I can see only difference is 3 INT from Wiz enhancements, or 1.5 DC's a Rogue can't get versus the 6 DC's a Splashed Wiz can't get), and an undocumented ED improved evasion ability that gives the weaker trap DC Wiz the same survivability (minus some hit points the Wiz is giving up and a couple points of reflex save because they both have Insightful Reflex feat, but one has capstone and the other does not) and thus "better at trapping".

If however you meant to say "can be a very good trapper" you know I've already said as much about multiclass versus pure. Pure is the specialist in most cases (exceptions exist). Of course there's very little content where a 18/2 Wiz with trap gear can't do traps, we both know that and naturally that's where your defense of your incorrect statement must go. However that's not the same as "wrong an 18/2 wiz is a better trapper".

[Artos_Fabril]

Really how is an INT specced Mechanic lower in trap DC's to a Wiz that doesn't get Mechanic PrE (+4 DC's +4 trap saves) or Rogue capstone (+2 INT)? OR Wiz Captone (-2 INT) Also let me know how a 2 splash gets improved evasion?

What you said is wrong, as in ACTUALLY wrong, as in I have just objectively proven you to be wrong. Unless you can produce about 7 DC worth of trap skills that a 18/2 Wiz can get that no Rogue has access to (so far as I can see only difference is 3 INT from Wiz enhancements, or 1.5 DC's a Rogue can't get versus the 6 DC's a Splashed Wiz can't get), and an undocumented ED improved evasion ability that gives the weaker trap DC Wiz the same survivability (minus some hit points the Wiz is giving up and a couple points of reflex save because they both have Insightful Reflex feat, but one has capstone and the other does not) and thus "better at trapping".

If however you meant to say "can be a very good trapper" you know I've already said as much about multiclass versus pure. Pure is the specialist in most cases (exceptions exist). Of course there's very little content where a 18/2 Wiz with trap gear can't do traps, we both know that and naturally that's where your defense of your incorrect statement must go. However that's not the same as "wrong an 18/2 wiz is a better trapper".

Of course, he could have meant that an 18/2 wiz/rog is a better to have as the sole party member handling traps, being a sufficiently skilled trapper, and significantly more effective in all other aspects of completing a quest than a pure mechanic.

However, that speaks nothing to multi-class characters being overpowered. It is more accurately a reflection of the disparity between casters and melees, and between artificers and all other crossbow users, as well as the substantial discrepancy between a build with a choice of 2 tier 3 PrEs versus one than cannot attain one.

This does, however, provide a great example of a class and build that will benefit significantly from the proposed ability of pure-class characters to take multiple PrE lines. Specifically, as we have already stipulated that a character need not have absolutely maximal skills in order to successfully disarm all traps, we have a character who will, with the enhancement pass be able to take both tier 3 Mechanic (30 points) and Capstone Assassin (41 points), giving a maxed-int, repeater-weilding, vorpal-assassinating, pure rogue with 17d6+12 sneak attack damage on every bolt.

[sephiroth1084]

Sometimes they are a result of tweaks to mobs (Insta kill saves in eGH for example, making Shiradi magic missile nuking even more attractive) that make the specialty less attractive temporarily. This comes and goes with new packs, and frankly should never be in the discussion. Not long ago Archmagi Evoker PrE was considered a gimpy choice. If your reason for buffing pure classes that are already CLEARLY superior at almost every specialty in the game, is that FotM builds pop up, then I think you're basing your opinion on a very short sighted view of the game.

The truth is you appear to be doing just that. For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much. Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.

Now a few scant months later post ED's and the curious admixture of slightly reduced emphasis and substantially changed perception it's time to return to the lame splash only pure class dominated days that have been the norm for most of the game? I couldn't disagree more.

I'm bored to hell of that, I'm tired of the bar always being raised to "you must have this many pure class levels to enter this ride" buffing pure class when they are already the absolute best at 90% of the tasks that are possible in the game, is a terrible idea.

* (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)



I agree some Classes need buffs to return to relevance... and this enhancement pass is an opportunity to help make that happen. But that's not really a Multiclass versus pure thing. And really it needs to not be strictly an enhancement thing. Bard's needed a severe boost in Spells during that spell pass that didn't happen. Ranger's feat abilities have always been too front loaded, and their later perks too irrelevant or not working (Ranged alacrity being pretty nearly half).

And Yes 10,000 Stars has no business effecting arrows... sorry it just doesn't. if you want 10.000 arrows (or better yet "rain of arrows") add that as a feat w/ archery feat prereqs and free to Rangers at 16th level[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=IronClan;4976800]You just called me wrong and then went on to reword my stated reason for why FotM builds pop up. So it's a little hard to take your post seriously. Adding another reason why they pop up in addition to the one I stated and you repeated is not how contradiction works. And does not prove me wrong.
What you said:

FOTM builds are a result of min/maxing by people who are bored of being the best at the predefined specialties that are almost always done best by a pure 20.

And I essentially said, "No, people do not build FoTM because they are bored of being the best at something, and that, no, a pure 20 is not the best at almost everything." Funny, doesn't look like I'm repeating what you said...

You do understand the saying "exceptions don't disprove rules"? In most cases the "deep multiclassing" (mostly deep splashes of Melee class combo's) you're talking about are FotM builds (that in some cases lasted a long time due to the derth of content in the past) and in some cases the direct results of flukish class splits due to the low cap, where going pure was never a real choice in the first place. Not getting ANY perks for the last few class levels and thus taking a few levels of something else is hardly a multiclassing choice, with an legit opportunity cost. It's a FotM build that lasts until they made those few levels better or raised the cap and made the new levels worth taking.

A lot of old builds (such as the Batman build) were a direct result of exploiting a poorly implemented (or not at all implemented) PnP rule allowing someone to have evasion in heavy armor for example. Not unlike the current "hey 10,000 Stars works with arrows" Monkchers, they should never have existed in the first place. If you can describe a class split as "it would be stupid not to do this if you want to be a good ____fill in the blank then it's not much of a choice.

Let's not pretend your brief list of exceptions is somehow proof of a thriving history of great multiclassing choices.

You made the erroneous claim that DDO has not had multiclassing, that multiclassing has been poor, and that multiclassing has only been worthwhile, really, since we received epic destinies. I demonstrated that you're wrong. The character builds I named weren't exceptions; they were the few I could recall off the top of my head with a moment's thought. There has been multiclassing in DDO since basically day 1, and there has been consistent multiclassing since then. You can make whatever claims you like about why people multiclass, but that has nothing to do with the point you tried to make, and that I refuted.

As for some of your reasoning here, claiming that many pure classes simply don't offer any incentive to take them all the way to 20 as a cause of multiclassing indicates that some classes do need to be buffed, which counters your main point in the post that I quoted. You're arguing with yourself now.

Really how is an INT specced Mechanic lower in trap DC's to a Wiz that doesn't get Mechanic PrE (+4 DC's +4 trap saves) or Rogue capstone (+2 INT)? OR Wiz Captone (-2 INT) Also let me know how a 2 splash gets improved evasion?

Uh...because you're talking about the rare Int-focused Mechanic, while I'm talking about Rogues and Wizards. Obviously, an Int specced Mechanic will be better at dealing with traps than anyone else in the game, but they're also fairly poor at doing absolutely anything else! The Wizard may very likely be a Pale Master, which grants +2 Int with Lich form, so that's a wash, and they are quite likely to have almost as high a Reflex save as a rogue Str-based rogue if they pick up Insightful Reflexes, which is an excellent feat for a wizard without Evasion, let alone with.
Dex 15 (assuming +2 tome to hit 17 for GTWF, but could be a 13 with a +4) = +2
Refl at 20: +12 base +6 trap sense
Total: +20

Wizard 18/Rogue 2.
Int 18 +5 levels +2 lich +3 enhancements = 28, or +9
Refl at 20: 3 from rogue, 5 from wizard = +8
Total: +17

The wizard is likely to have more HP (they lose some HP from the smaller HD, but gain it back and then some from Con being their secondary stat and not really needing to invest anywhere else, along with the +4 from Lich and +20 from PM).

Now, yeah, you could compare with a Dex-based rogue, who would win there, albeit by a small margin since they are less likely to begin with an 18, are much less likely to spend 3 enhancements on Dex, and aren't getting that extra +2 from a capstone or anything.

If however you meant to say "can be a very good trapper" you know I've already said as much about multiclass versus pure. Pure is the specialist in most cases (exceptions exist). Of course there's very little content where a 18/2 Wiz with trap gear can't do traps, we both know that and naturally that's where your defense of your incorrect statement must go. However that's not the same as "wrong an 18/2 wiz is a better trapper".

Well, the wizard will have more HP, and will be able to heal in the middle of a complex trap more easily than the rogue will. They'll probably have higher trap skills than a non-Mechanic, and about even with a non-Int-focused Mechanic, while being much better at everything else in the game.

You aren't comparing pure vs. multiclass here, however, you're comparing a PrE designed to accomplish ONE task to multiclassing. And, as you say, the little bit of advantage a rogue has is going to often be irrelevant, since you can get by in the game with the tools the 18/2 wizard will have--you don't need the hyper-specialization that the Mechanic offers. The wizard can do any trap in the game, and nearly every trap in the game can be avoided through skillful play. Thus, you essentially have two characters with equal ability (it doesn't matter if one can get higher numbers if they can both beat all of the same challenges) in one area, while one character also has all the abilities of a pure wizard (-1 to their DCs and a couple of spell slots). That looks like multiclassing is highly effective to me.

[sephiroth1084]

Of course, he could have meant that an 18/2 wiz/rog is a better to have as the sole party member handling traps, being a sufficiently skilled trapper, and significantly more effective in all other aspects of completing a quest than a pure mechanic.

Yup.

However, that speaks nothing to multi-class characters being overpowered. It is more accurately a reflection of the disparity between casters and melees, and between artificers and all other crossbow users, as well as the substantial discrepancy between a build with a choice of 2 tier 3 PrEs versus one than cannot attain one.

Of course it speaks to multiclassing. You could look at the Rogue 18/Fighter 2, who gains 2 feats, +1 Str, and has basically the same trapping ability, trading 5d6 SA for two feats for added versatility or punch vs. SA-immune enemies. Not a great trade, but certainly doable, and potentially fairly strong.

We've got dozens of 13 rogue/ builds on the forums. The wiz/rog split just emphasizes the point; it isn't necessary to make it.

This does, however, provide a great example of a class and build that will benefit significantly from the proposed ability of pure-class characters to take multiple PrE lines. Specifically, as we have already stipulated that a character need not have absolutely maximal skills in order to successfully disarm all traps, we have a character who will, with the enhancement pass be able to take both tier 3 Mechanic (30 points) and Capstone Assassin (41 points), giving a maxed-int, repeater-weilding, vorpal-assassinating, pure rogue with 17d6+12 sneak attack damage on every bolt.

And that's an issue. Multiclassing will definitely need some bolstering to compete with the additional single-class power coming down the pipe. That doesn't mean that some classes don't need to be boosted themselves.

If you can get deep enough into your off-class(es)' enhancements, multiclassing may still be a strong option given some planning and forethought.

[emptysands]

* (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)

The effect is not just from EDs. Gear plays a factor as well. An extra +2 from a +8+3+1 over +6+2+1 item, extra fort penetration.

Adds up.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Early Enhancement preview!!

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=414564 <======= Go there now!!! :O

[emptysands]

New forum as well: http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=264

[Blayster]

Early Enhancement preview!!

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=414564 <======= Go there now!!! :O

Thank you for letting us know. Great that there is another thread, as this one here seems to have digressed into multiclassing discussion, and I'm already tired of people giving me negative reputation for openly discussing my opinion.

[HungarianRhapsody]

There wasn't a single insult in my post, unless we're not allowed to tell someone when they are objectively wrong about something they are claiming. I was wondering what happened to that post, I thought maybe I forgot to click send or something. The closest thing to an insult here is you passive aggressively implying there's something wrong with my view of multiclassing, as in the "whats that supposed to mean?" comment. Anyway if you're going to report a post that doesn't even contain so much as a single IMPLICATION or personally directed comment, then your post is also worthy of reporting.

I followed your link, I don't agree with your opinion in it, but didn't feel strongly enough at the time I first read it to debate it. Nothing in it actually points out why my "premise for the purpose and use of multiclassing is way off base".
Again that comment, absent any examples or reasons, simply appears to have been a passive aggressive attempt to bait me, by implying that I'm not knowledgeable enough to share my opinion on multiclassing. This appearance is bolstered by the fact that you are not offering any reasoning for why my premise is "way off base". If you're going to report me while you post personally directed slights like that I'm going to have to return the favor, even though that's just going to result in deleted conversations.

You insulted me (repeatedly) in a post that doesn't show up on the forums anymore and now you're saying that I'm trolling you by saying that you insulted me. Amazing.

It seems to me that you are not interested in having a productive conversation on this issue, so I'll just leave you in peace at this point. If you want to believe that multiclassing was rare and sub-optimal before MotU, then you're welcome to do so. Most of us can recognize that multiclassing was viable and powerful and versatile for the entire history of DDO.

[Tolero]

The time has come my little friends to talk of many things!
Of points, and buffs, and action boosts
Of spells, and songs to sing
And why the build is good or not
And enhancement related things....

Enhancements revamp alpha is now happening on Lamannia.