Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[NecroKovy]

My feedback regarding Prestige Enhancements is regrettably simple and selfish:

Please don't turn Pale Masters into speed bags, I picked Necro BEFORE all that Lich form and how do you do, which I really like. I got MADE FUN OF for choosing Necro spec when I first played DDO, the first guild I had abandoned me.

They didn't kick me out of the guild. No, they ALL just stopped showing up! For at least five levels I wept the tears of the (darned), limping my weak old man Necromancer around as a renown lemming for a guild that for all I know never ever logged in again.

Then Pale Master came. AFTER Necros were booted to go watch The Crow and paint your face black while the adults play for what, at least a couple years I'd imagine.

Necros gotta keep it real, and remind people of our early struggles. We DESERVE what we have, and light spells hurt like it's almost actually for real (testify!). I'm all about helping some of the classes that need a boost or change here and there to be better, and as long as the PM's don't get kicked on account they're too much not the dog anymore, that's not fair to anyone. It's not fair to King Arthur, it's not fair to Optimus Prime, and it's definitely not fair to the movie Legend (featuring Tom Cruise as long haired sensitive man from the woods...why did you even let her approach the Unicorn, Tom?).

[lathreborn]

So you drop purple names in 1 manyshot? Do you realize how useless ranged dps is when off manyshot?

I don't solo raids. Besides which, something that several of you seem to have forgotten, there will be MELEE FIGHTERS between me and the raid boss. I DON'T NEED TO MELEE!
Slayer arrows + Lit2 bow = a lot of DPS, even off manyshot.

[nibel]

Monk is balanced in PnP by 2 rules that were house ruled out in DDO.

Actually, monks became playable in DDO, Neverwinter Nights, and Baldur's Gate by allowing they to wear "magic gloves" or something like that. PnP monks are fubar because they need a 150.000 po item to match a 50.000 po clean +5 weapon, and the lack of good armor/tunic, and the need to fit tons of ability-boosting items.

DDO pushed it further with stances and better unarmed progression (via items and stances that raise unarmed damage). And the cherry is the more open feat selection.

Sorry for the derail. I just can't hold myself when someone says monks in PnP were balanced.

[Failedlegend]

I don't solo raids. Besides which, something that several of you seem to have forgotten, there will be MELEE FIGHTERS between me and the raid boss. I DON'T NEED TO MELEE!
Slayer arrows + Lit2 bow = a lot of DPS, even off manyshot.

As much as I agree with you that ranged characters shouldn't waste resources, feats,etc. on melee this thread is already WAY too long for the devs to keep up and doesn't need to be derailed even more

[budalic]

Actually, monks became playable in DDO, Neverwinter Nights, and Baldur's Gate by allowing they to wear "magic gloves" or something like that. PnP monks are fubar because they need a 150.000 po item to match a 50.000 po clean +5 weapon, and the lack of good armor/tunic, and the need to fit tons of ability-boosting items.

DDO pushed it further with stances and better unarmed progression (via items and stances that raise unarmed damage). And the cherry is the more open feat selection.

Sorry for the derail. I just can't hold myself when someone says monks in PnP were balanced.

So true. Monk was worst class in 3.5e PHB, and differences between classes were a lot more pronounced than in DDO. Low to-hit, abilites that didn't really do anything (Flurry of Misses and Slow fall spring to mind); overall schisophrenia of class ('so, i can move fast, and I can gain a lot of attacks when not moving').

Thinking about it, balance we have in DDO currently far surpasses pen and paper.

[lathreborn]

As much as I agree with you that ranged characters shouldn't waste resources, feats,etc. on melee this thread is already WAY too long for the devs to keep up and doesn't need to be derailed even more

Agreed. My original point was multiclass v pure class.

[bigolbear]

If a multi-class is more powerful than a pure in his chosen profession, the fundamental design is flawed.

As people have pointed out, there existed a time when this was the case, and was compensated with capstones.

Agreed about 'in his chosen profession'. I didnt mean that at all, perhaps if i had said 'overall more powerful - through gained versatility'. This would be closer to what i meant. but bear in mind a fighters 'proffession' is fighting - defensive, offensive mele and ranged, not just mele DPS.

Im not saying a battle cleric should be equal at fighting to a fighter - but if its a well thought out build then then they should be say half as good at fighting and 75% as good at casting as a cleric. thats 125% power compared to 100%.

The multiple mele class builds are where cookie cutter builds come from - and these are either better in one very focused area (often burst DPS) compared to a pure. This is generaly the area most folks are concerned with when it comes to comparing pure Vs multi powerscales.

Either way I stand by statement, If you cant make a character that is either more focused than a pure or more versatile than a pure then the purpose for multiclassing is limited to 'roleplayers', self gimpers, play challenge builds etc. It absolutely should be a valid choice, and as with picking the right feats and skills investment in time and thought should be rewarded.

[jkm]

Actually, monks became playable in DDO, Neverwinter Nights, and Baldur's Gate by allowing they to wear "magic gloves" or something like that. PnP monks are fubar because they need a 150.000 po item to match a 50.000 po clean +5 weapon, and the lack of good armor/tunic, and the need to fit tons of ability-boosting items.

DDO pushed it further with stances and better unarmed progression (via items and stances that raise unarmed damage). And the cherry is the more open feat selection.

Sorry for the derail. I just can't hold myself when someone says monks in PnP were balanced.

If you would have followed the thread, they you would see that i was talking about the 2 monk splash, not the class as a whole. Pure Monks were a totally different animal especially if your DM house ruled out the size bonus advantages.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

... It's not fair to King Arthur, it's not fair to Optimus Prime, and it's definitely not fair to the movie Legend (featuring Tom Cruise as long haired sensitive man from the woods...why did you even let her approach the Unicorn, Tom?).

Any post in a DDO thread that mentions the name Tom Cruise, deserves a -1. However, the Optimus Prime reference reverses such negativity and raises it +1, so your good!

[Pwesiela]

I don't solo raids. Besides which, something that several of you seem to have forgotten, there will be MELEE FIGHTERS between me and the raid boss. I DON'T NEED TO MELEE!
Slayer arrows + Lit2 bow = a lot of DPS, even off manyshot.

/sigh

[dkyle]

If a multi-class is more powerful than a pure in his chosen profession, the fundamental design is flawed.

I'm still not clear what "chosen profession" actually means in terms of actual game mechanics. To my mind, pure classes are an amalgamation of various "professions", to begin with, and no more inherently dedicated to one profession than a multi.

[Failedlegend]

I'm still not clear what "chosen profession" actually means in terms of actual game mechanics. To my mind, pure classes are an amalgamation of various "professions", to begin with, and no more inherently dedicated to one profession than a multi.

I think he/she means a 20 Cleric should be a better Cleric than a Cleric12/Fighter6/Monk2

[dkyle]

I think he/she means a 20 Cleric should be a better Cleric than a Cleric12/Fighter6/Monk2

I get that in principle, but what does it really mean to be a "better Cleric"? Better Healer? Better spell DPS?

[Failedlegend]

I get that in principle, but what does it really mean to be a "better Cleric"? Better Healer? Better spell DPS?

Essentially yeah.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I get that in principle, but what does it really mean to be a "better Cleric"? Better Healer? Better spell DPS?

That definition will change based on the build/person behind the build. The "focus" is the ability that you've trained the most in.

[Chai]

XP Penalty didn't go away in 3.0 or 3.5, multiclass characters took a 20% xp penalty for each class not within 1 level of your highest level class. For example a 12/6/2 split in PnP would take a -40% xp penalty, or -20% if the 12th level class was their favored class. These xp penalties were frequently house ruled to not exist, and xp penalties did not apply to PrC's just base classes. I am glad that this system isn't in DDO as it is cumbersome and very punishing.

However....

The preferred class of the race did not count toward that rule. A dwarf cleric 5 fighter 1 - no penalty. Halfling rogue 5 fighter 1 - no penalty.

Human got to CHOOSE which was their preferred class. A human ranger 7 rogue 1 wizard 1 - no penalty. The ranger is chosen as their preferred class so it doesnt count, and the wizard and rogue are within one level of eachother.

A human ranger 9 fighter 2 barbarian 2 rogue 1 dervish 1 tempest 1 takes - NO XP PENALTY. They choose ranger as their preferred class and every other class is within one level of eachother. PRC also worked differently.

Ruled Out? You mean easily built around. Having a main class + 1-2 level splashes of multiple different classes was the easiest way to become really powerful in 3.0 and 3.5.

Theres nothing in 3.x restricting people to having to take x levels of a class to get a PRE. Its not built on multiples of 6.

[Failedlegend]

However....

The preferred class of the race did not count toward that rule. A dwarf cleric 5 fighter 1 - no penalty. Halfling rogue 5 fighter 1 - no penalty.

Human got to CHOOSE which was their preferred class. A human ranger 7 rogue 1 wizard 1 - no penalty. The ranger is chosen as their preferred class so it doesnt count, and the wizard and rogue are within one level of eachother.

A human ranger 9 fighter 2 barbarian 2 rogue 1 dervish 1 tempest 1 takes - NO XP PENALTY. They choose ranger as their preferred class and every other class is within one level of eachother. PRC also worked differently.

Ruled Out? You mean easily built around. Having a main class + 1-2 level splashes of multiple different classes was the easiest way to become really powerful in 3.0 and 3.5.

Theres nothing in 3.x restricting people to having to take x levels of a class to get a PRE. Its not built on multiples of 6.

Well good for you except I LOATHED people who had characters like 4/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1/1/1 it was banned from my games because it was stupid and made no sense so I removed the multiclassing xp penalty

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

well good for you except i loathed people who had characters like 4/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1/1/1 it was banned from my games because it was stupid and made no sense so i removed the multiclassing xp penalty

+1.

XP PENALTY.

Personally I'd love to see xp penalty come back, I liked it. There should be a penalty for acting like a ****** in quest. However with introduction of TRs that will never happen, and lag it probably should never happen.

I still think it was a better DDO before TRs and without 1/2 the lag we get today, oh well... no biggie.

[Aashrym]

Well good for you except I LOATHED people who had characters like 4/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1/1/1 it was banned from my games because it was stupid and made no sense so I removed the multiclassing xp penalty

I didn't ban them because some players wanted to have a lot of options and the system was set up that way. House ruling against it being possible doesn't change the fact the game rules allowed for it.

I did set the expectation that if I did not want something in my game to meet PrC requirements those individual options might not be available and to check with me on planning it out before hand on a case by case basis but that was still house ruling out some builds based on broken mechanics.

The DDO system with PrE's and 3 class limits is something I do not mind over PrC's because they still provide options, they still provide flavor, and it keeps the 4/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/1/1 munchkin building to a minimum. Having a lot of options can be good, having too many options can lead to losing control of where the end result of the build should be compared to the standard alternatives and that is where allowing everything from the PnP splat book options could turn into a balance issue.

My general rule was if it's in the PHB core rules it's fine; if it's not get it pre-approved.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I did set the expectation that if I did not want something in my game to meet PrC requirements those individual options might not be available and to check with me on planning it out before hand on a case by case basis but that was still house ruling out some builds based on broken mechanics.

My general rule was if it's in the PHB core rules it's fine; if it's not get it pre-approved.

This is how I did it. Usually however, it didn't (get approved).