Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Meat-Head]

you have said this a few times and i still dont understand why he has to give up any trees at all? what does that save turbine? what does this gain any player? what does limiting the trees prevent or allow? why is it even an issue? i have not heard a single reason why any character should be limited to 3 trees please elaborate as to why,

I don't get this either really. Someone have a speculation?

limted APs would be enough to prevent too many problems.

[MadFloyd]

Just a quick note to say thanks for the constructive discussion.

I totally get the concern about the limited number of trees and we're discussing it here. Like anything else there are pros and cons and differing opinions.

[Aelonwy]

I know this is a personal crusade for you but casters are absolutely fantastic as is and i am sure you should get the ability to freely scroll cast any divine or arcane scroll just for going /1 into that class.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that scrolls were tied to class level with strict UMD requirements. Splashing 1 in a caster class may give you access to the first, possibly second level spell scrolls but you would thereafter have to meet the UMD requirement. The same is not true of wands, 1 splash in class and unlimited access to wands belonging to that class. Is this right?

[Psiandron]

Just a quick note to say thanks for the constructive discussion.

I totally get the concern about the limited number of trees and we're discussing it here. Like anything else there are pros and cons and differing opinions.

Just for our edification, what is(are) the reason(s) for the limit anyway?

[orakio]

No it would not be available to splash builds, requiring minimum levels for each level of the enhancement (probably levels 4, 6, 8 and 10 - AP costs 1, 2, 3, 4) - adding just enough +caster levels to make them viable. You would have a separate line available for each class if both are casters. Maxing both lines (+4 to each class for a 10/10 build) would leave you little AP for anything else.

eg: a 12 wiz/8 cleric may be able to cast as a 16 wiz/11 cleric with the full line(s). It would NOT give any spell slots, NO extra sp, NO PrE reqs, etc - just basic casting levels.

I'm not talking about pure classes. Not the topic of my post and not relevant.

The suggested change does not include prereqs - just caster levels.

Ahh, i was thinking of your old suggestion of a system for it but yeah the new enhancement system may work a bit better in some ways and wouldn't be so out of control as the old method.

[Meat-Head]

Just a quick note to say thanks for the constructive discussion.

I totally get the concern about the limited number of trees and we're discussing it here. Like anything else there are pros and cons and differing opinions.

Thanks for this!!

But ultimately: Wasn't the character customization thing the "bread and butter"? So.............?


I'd be curious to see what the devs say in terms of the "cons" of unlimted trees. We're not coming up with much here..

[Vordax]

you have said this a few times and i still dont understand why he has to give up any trees at all? what does that save turbine? what does this gain any player? what does limiting the trees prevent or allow? why is it even an issue? i have not heard a single reason why any character should be limited to 3 trees, please elaborate as to why, as opposed to pushing past the why and going to straight to 'but its ok'. because if you have a 3-class character you know that those little enhancements are very nice to have and help make the build what it is without making it op. so why should anyone have to give it up?

Only thing I can think of that would be a limiter for this would be stacking enhancements. Say barb18/fighter2. 6 PRE's + 1 racial PRE. Take ravager STR3, frenzy CON1, occult CON1, kensai STR1, stalwart CON1, PDK STR1, racial pre stat+3.

Vordax

[Aashrym]

Discounting the comparisons of now vs later, this is, I think were the core of the disagreement comes from. Yes, you are able to get a higher top-end in the new system. The problem comes when they inevitably balance for that top end, as they always do, and other capabilities fall off the bottom of the dice. That puts more pressure on beefing up supplemental build abilities, not less, and forcing focus makes that more difficult.

Comparing now vs now multiclasses still don't get the potential for a capstone. So by keeping things the same you are giving up a capstone ability. Not even know what options are available on each tree would you think giving up the option of a capstone on a multiclassed character?

The comparison of later vs later was also relevant. Pure class or multiclass gets 1 race and 3 class trees, 80 AP, and the requirement to pick and choose which enhancements they want while locking others, each get the option of a capstone, each get the options of tier III enhancements, or each get the option of not going all out in one tree and diversifying more in all 3.

That doesn't look like the new enhancement system provides disincentive at all.

[UniqueToo]

Ahh, i was thinking of your old suggestion of a system for it but yeah the new enhancement system may work a bit better in some ways and wouldn't be so out of control as the old method.

I think this system would be the most fair of all I have looked into. BTW the original post was updated a little just to clarify things.

[Meat-Head]

Only thing I can think of that would be a limiter for this would be stacking enhancements. Say barb18/fighter2. 6 PRE's + 1 racial PRE. Take ravager STR3, frenzy CON1, occult CON1, kensai STR1, stalwart CON1, PDK STR1, racial pre stat+3.

Vordax

Hm.. Maybe this IS it.

Solution: no stacking. Have Str enchancements go up to IV or something. Problem solved?

[Cyr]

you have said this a few times and i still dont understand why he has to give up any trees at all? what does that save turbine? what does this gain any player? what does limiting the trees prevent or allow? why is it even an issue?

I supsect the reason lies in stacking enhancements and synergies between PrEs.

A three class multi + racial could concievably have LOTS of toughness enhancements for example if you were not limited to 3 + racial base branch (which lol still will be fairly crazy in all likelyhood).

The PrE combo's are more along the lines of tons of different stage one PrE's which are front loaded.

[Aashrym]

you have said this a few times and i still dont understand why he has to give up any trees at all? what does that save turbine? what does this gain any player? what does limiting the trees prevent or allow? why is it even an issue? i have not heard a single reason why any character should be limited to 3 trees, please elaborate as to why, as opposed to pushing past the why and going to straight to 'but its ok'. because if you have a 3-class character you know that those little enhancements are very nice to have and help make the build what it is without making it op. so why should anyone have to give it up?

Limiting the trees prevents useless screen space in trees that have nothing in them or possibly too many low level AP stacking for better effect than high level enhancements if they are moving away from that type of issue. 3 trees for all also provides consistency in character creation and development for players who might be newer.

That would be 3 reasons.

Why should some players be allowed only 3 trees while other can get 9 in the first place?

[Failedlegend]

Just a quick note to say thanks for the constructive discussion.

I totally get the concern about the limited number of trees and we're discussing it here. Like anything else there are pros and cons and differing opinions.

Any chance of get actual racial prestige's instead of just allowing them to take class PrEs like this: (the below are just examples)

Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Different than SD & DoS, have it add % DR, Immunity to ALL forms of knockdown and bonus saves vs. spells or something)

Warforged: Juggernaut & Reforged (gives you the choice to go more or less construct-like)

Halfling: Arcane Trickster (essentially a rogue/wiz mix that lets you open locks, disable traps, pick pockets at range and adds SA to Touch & Ray spells)

Half-Orc: War Chieftan or something (sorry don't really know half-orc lore much)

Elf: AA & Eldritch Knight (Eldritch knight would reduce ASF, Increase CL and BAB w/ the capstone completely eliminating ASF and making BAB 20...throw in a special ability or two and your golden)

Drow: Scorpion Wraith (again don't really know much about Drow lore-wise so I'm jsut going with whats others said)

Human: Can choose any racial (Except Juggernaut/Reforged, Eldritch Knight & Half-Elf Racials)

Half-Elf: Get a different racial based on dilettante choice..IOW if you have the Pally Dilly you can choose HotD, DoS or KoTC. Also has free access to AA of course (doesn't need ranger Dilly)

Every race also gets a few enhancement lines to improve dragonmarks (some bonuses would lock out other bonuses)

or some of these

Sacred Fist (probably fits Dwarf Best has a bit of cleric abilities such as turn undead and some healing abilities but it gets bonuses to fist dies as well as wisdom bonus to damage - light element- and some defensive abilities),

Dwarven Defender (Like the defender pre's but more of an extension of base dwarf abilities, increase saves vs. spells, %DR, immunity to all forms of knockdown)

Dread Pirate (Kind of a tough bard 0 Half-Orc Prob)

Black Flame Zealot (Sounds Drowish to me - Kind of a mix between assassin and paladin - immunity to fear - posion use - fear aura - Negative Energy Imbue similar to arty elemental imbue)

Juggernaut and Reforged (Polar opposites of each other reforged is basically less forged more hum--errr treeperson)

That there's plenty of others like:

DaggerSpell Mage/Shaper - essentially a TWF Caster that can add his attack spells to his dagger strikes iow you can get stabbed by a DBF

Bladesinger - If I understand correctly its a rapier fighter with some magical tricks up his sleeves)

Swiftblade - This one I LOVE it's a fighter type thats addicted to haste that the more they train into the prestige the better bonuses they gain from haste and the longer it lasts, they gets stuff like extra damage, Blur effect that gest better the deeper you go, movement speed increase (stacks with hastes innate increase), makes haste undispellable, Innate FoM w/ the capstone being an large AOE slow spell

Also related to the above PrEs is there any chance of multiclass type PrEs...ie. If I take say Tier 1 Henshin Mystic and ummm... Tier 1 Radiant Servant could my 3rd tab be the Sacred Fist PrE or I take Tier 1 Tempest & Tier 1 Archmage: Enchantment I can open Swiftblade, Tier 1 Warchanter and Tier 1 Kensai for Dread Pirate...well you get the idea.

[Cyr]

Hm.. Maybe this IS it.

Solution: no stacking. Have Str enchancements go up to IV or something. Problem solved?

My thoughts are that this will probably be the path they take.

I think that a nice UI way to do it would be to reduce the available number of times the enhancement can be taken on each other tab when purchased in one tab. So if we are dealing with Str with a cap of 4 we would have the UI on another tab say 0/3 after you purchase it once on a different tab. That way you could spread out your purchases, but be limited to the same cap.

[Vordax]

Why wouldn't the general part also give points toward the prestige lines? They could even give half points toward all three of them, that would not hurt the system...

Current proposed system you can't get 3 PRE's to level 3, your idea would make it possible, just spend 20 points in 3 and 20 points in general. Assuming 1/2 points to each tree, this gives you 3 PRE's to tier 3.

If you allowed full points to be applied to each PRE then spend 41 in general and get all 3 capstones for a class.

Vordax

[Aelonwy]

Would it be possible to get a consensus of what enhancments per each class should be in each tree, if we cannot have a general tab?

For instance, most bards require Inspired Atk & Dmg, and most want Lingering Song as well. Probably also wand and scroll mastery.

[arkonas]

how is limiting you to 3 trees a bad thing? your already limited to 3 classes now. so lets leave it be. you shouldnt be able to dip into like 5 trees. thats just unreasonable. pure should always get the full power of the prestige of their class. add casting levels if need be and the capstones to be nice.

if they multi class then they should understand ok i lose the ability to get my capstone and my tier 3 because i chose to get other abilities to mix in with the ones i have. i see nothing wrong in that. they understand what their giving up and their looking at how can i max my build into doing dps or trap skills ac etc.

im sorry a multiclass should NOT earn a capstone. they understood that once they multiclass they lost it. capstones are the reason to stay pure class. maybe even to make it more appealing tiers of the capstone like 3 levels.

i would like to see some thing for like wf or palemasters to be able to improve stuff like the healing friends or necros getting ability to self heal a little through the prestige. this can apply to other races for their abilities

or maybe their pets getting a boost. in any other game i played pets are what did their damage and necros backed behinded them with their spells sorta like the defender/arti

[fyrst.grok]

My biggest concern is if the tree limit leads to limited (or none at all) multiclassing like most other games.

[Riggs]

Three trees isn't too limiting tho. If we have 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, or 52 trees we still only have the AP to unlock and make use of a couple of them. That is the restricting factor, not the number of trees.

At least 41 in my main PrE only leaves an average of 13 each for the other 3 trees already. That unlocks the 3rd tier of enhancements available (edit: not to be confused with tier III pre) and there appears to be a lot more than 41 available per tree. It's more like 50+ per tree already.

Lack of AP to spend in more trees makes having more trees pointless.

Yes it is. If each tree has enhancements that are not in other trees, then yes.

If you can access all enhancement lines in each pre and they simple only COUNT towards one tree then no, 3 trees is not limiting - because you are not getting locked out of all the other enhancements available. But again yes, if you only ever allowed three 'types' of enhancements - it is too limiting.

-1 racial set of lines - non-pre - just racial
-1 general class - non pre, just plain class lines
-up to 3 prestige lines - class lines
-1-2-3 more lines for racial prestige lines (helf and human for example would/should have multiple lines they could take)

That right there is 6-9 trees.

No that doesnt mean you get tier 3 in 9 trees - that means if you want to put a single point into a tree you should be allowed to, if you qualify for 9 lines/tres, you should be able to put 1, 5 or 8 points into each tree if you want. Otherwise it is restricting options. Would that lock you out of prestige lines? Sure - but that should be the players choice, not be railroaded into a prestige class just because it is there.

Ignored in the whole debate is that some players actually want some kind of theme, oncept, or flavor to their character beyond preset prestige lines and powergaming. restricting trees takes that flavor away.

Players should always be given the option to customize and flavor their character - and yes gimp them too if they choose.

[nibel]

What if the racial PrE do not have a capstone, only the "free" tier 3?

That way, you keep incentiving dwarves to be fighters, horcs to be barbarians, and so on. If you want a capstone, you stay pure. Racial PrE gives a nice extra not tiered with class level, and would still be a good choice for multiclass builds (being able to reach tier 3 and all).