Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Ganak]

Personally, I'm leaning toward the "unlimited number of trees" philosophy here.(

Think about it, this would lead us back to cookie cutter builds.

People would load up on the very similar enhancements. For example, Ftr/barb toughness/Healing amp/attack damage boost/sprint boost, etc.

[jkm]

So Eladrin, I just want to point out one downside to this new system - Purchaseable Past Life Feats.

Previously, there were 3 classes that benefited from them the most -> Wizard, Monk, Fighter since they had a lot of extra feats. By removing the feat requirements on Ranger, you are moving them into this category as well. I understand that right now not every purchaseable feat is useful, but it is worth noting that if they are made so, these 4 classes will have a huge leg up on other classes.

[jkm]

Think about it, this would lead us back to cookie cutter builds.

People would load up on the very similar enhancements. For example, Ftr/barb toughness/Healing amp/attack damage boost/sprint boost, etc.

You could combat it by just making them spend X APs to enable the 4th tree.

Personally, what I'd like to see is 3 standard trees with a reincarnation tree that has a separate action point pool (1 per TR).

[Thrudh]

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!

The general class enhancements need to be on all three PrE panes, so you can get Fighter STR, Fighter Toughness, Fighter Haste Boost, etc. no matter which PrE you pick.

[Ziindarax]

Think about it, this would lead us back to cookie cutter builds.

People would load up on the very similar enhancements. For example, Ftr/barb toughness/Healing amp/attack damage boost/sprint boost, etc.

And limiting our options via restricting the number of trees we can have (and ultimately limiting us to bi-class characters as triple-class characters wouldn't be able to get enhancements for their third class if I am reading it right, and if the racial pre is always taking up one of the three trees) won't put us in an even worse cookie-cutter position?

[curboUS]

Personally, I'm leaning toward the "unlimited number of trees" philosophy here.

My current thoughts/suggestions:

Unlimited number of trees. As long as the PrE trees are not front-loaded too much, allowing the player to spread APs across 11(!) trees shouldn't be that much of an issue, surely?

A vertical tab interface to access all available trees. There are only so many tabs you can fit on a horizontal tab-bar.

Generic class enhancements get their own tab. Not everything fits neatly into a PrE packet.

Two enhancements with the same effect are the same enhancement, and count as taken in every tree they appear in. That means no "fighter strength" and "barb strength", just "increased strength". This could make similar PrEs easier to get, with 1AP counting toward multiple prestiges; whether this is a good thing or not is debatable (to counter this some, it may not count toward the PrE unless all prerequisites for that enhancement are also taken in that tree).

Remember folks: Stacking bonuses are bad, and only serve to feed the power differentials.

I like the above a lot. Stacking bonuses are generally bad, but i do see the benifit of choises in a tree stacking with everything.

So i suggest that the choises in the PrC-trees do stack with everything and that the choises in the generic class trees do not.

As a example:
Generic Ranger tree have Favored enemy 1, 2, 3 (limited by level/AP etc) and the PrC allows stacking +1,+2 (for a total of 5 tiers Fav enemy).
Generic Fighter Tree have Toughness 1,2,3 and that the SD PrC have +1 toughness stacking (for a total of 4 toughness enhancements)

That should make the development of PrC easier by limiting the stackable parts of the PrC.

[Ganolyn]

You still get the feats. What does it matter if deepwood gets the +x dmg to favored enemies if you get the same +x in tempest to all enemies if anything it's better as you get that dmg to all mobs. Plus you can still further splash into the deepwood line for the favored stuff and still get your tempest stuff and get 2x dmg, you have einstein in your sig that should make sense :P You are also possibly gaining deepwood I (only really important if they make deepwood decent.)

Quoting Einstein doesn't make me one! You're assuming that there will be enough AP's to do these things over several PrE's/Classes. There are other enhancements that one might want to choose besides damage boosters. I have at least one versatilist that I can see suffering from this set up. I'll wait and see, it all might be a red herring, but just on princible I don't like restricting a class feat this way. General feats available to all, sure no problem.

[Scraap]

<madwithpower>It will also be DESTROYED! BWAHAHA!</madwithpower>

Yeah, I'm getting rid of IF. People that have it will get a free feat respec token. It's going to be a tiered Warforged racial enhancement that doesn't destroy your character.

Mithril Fluidity too.

Hrm... what about the DR feats and enhancements? Giving those a once-over to compensate for the heal-amp gap? Say either as a percentile, or a stacking dr/- (really not in love with that last, but it'd fit with prior decision-making)? Might make for preventative vs restorative tanking styles there if we're to be left with the present ac system, so the two racials remain distinct.

[Theolin]

ok, as a fun insane but ugly test of where I have gone with enhancemts

human 13 Cleric / 6 arti / 1 ftr

What I have for enhancements - mostly some left out
wis / chr / int @ - 2 tiers each
Smite damage amp - 3 tiers
Healing damage amp - 2 tiers
crit chance smite - 3 tiers
crit chance heal - 2 tiers ... because I have to not want to
Force damage amp 3 tiers
force crit - 1 tier
Radiant Servant - tier 1 & 2
Human Adapt 1 & 2
Racial tough 3 tiers
Ftr tough 1 tier
arti xbow attack / damage 1 each
improved rune arm 1 tier
Arti Battle engineer - 1 teir
arti damage boost ... 2 tiers .... because I have to not want to ... shares cool down with endless so dont use
Item defense - 1
wand & scroll damage arti - 2 tiers

-- things I wanted to do but ran out due to some I had to take ...
-- human versitilty
-- more healing damage amp
-- healing amp
-- more rune arm

so ... would this actually still sort of work .... ???

just thought I give a crazy example of using
- 1 fighter
- 2 from arti ?
- 2 from cleric ?
- 1/2 from human ?
that is a lot of trees 5 to 7 depending on how it gets counted but they are all necessary to make this build even 1/2 decent ... I just don not see how this could translate into the new system and still be possible

Just something to think about

edit: I am still messing with enhancements this is just the latest effort as I play around but should give an idea

[Cetus]

What about the improved critical accuracy enhancement line for fighters? That enhancement line is just as terrible as the improved fortification feat. Can you uncouple them from the kensai req list? Maybe improve them to actually add damage?

And the inspired bravery lines for warchanters is also useless, any thoughts about handling seriously sub parr enhcancement requirements such as the aforementioned?

[Thrudh]

Into the most appropriate tree, generally.


The Deepwood Sniper is built up as the "forester / hunter" line for the rangers, and has the Favored Enemy modifiers.

Extra Song is in the Virtuoso tree for Bards.

Multiclassed characters will have to decide whether a couple of enhancements from a class are worth locking that tree in as one of the three selectable ones. Of the sample characters we've built, my Arcane Archer monstrosity (that I talked about in one of the ranged threads) was forced to make this choice - I ended up dropping the extra sneak attack damage from the Assassin tree. (Half-Elf / Arcane Archer / Kensei / Warchanter was my build.)

I did gain a bunch of other interesting things, though, to make up for it.

Any of the above are possible on a case by case basis. The spellcaster damage amplification ones are currently giving us the more interesting debates.

Some things are currently slated in multiple trees - we've got Assassin Dex I and II, for instance, alongside Thief-Acrobat Dex I and II in the Rogue trees. They're currently expected to stack.

Yeah I don't like this much either at first glance... Every ranger is going to want favored enemies, so every ranger has just "locked in" Deepwood Sniper, only 2 class panels to go.... So my fighter/ranger/monk grabs SD and Tempest (just like now), but I get zero monk enhancements.

Devil is in the details, but that seems MORE limiting to me.

[jkm]

Yeah I don't like this much either at first glance... Every ranger is going to want favored enemies, so every ranger has just "locked in" Deepwood Sniper, only 2 class panels to go.... So my fighter/ranger/monk grabs SD and Tempest (just like now), but I get zero monk enhancements.

Devil is in the details, but that seems MORE limiting to me.

You forgot the racial tree

[Theolin]

As an idea

How about making the trees tabbed like the character screen, just do nested tabs within the Enhancement tab?

This way we can have them all and get to choose ... yeah choice

Choice ... 9 class ones + 1-5 racial ones, 10-14 tabs <-- now this could be FUN, way complicated, but WAY FUN

edit: laughs maniacally while walking back to the lab to sew, run wires, find parts .....

[LeLoric]

What about the improved critical accuracy enhancement line for fighters? That enhancement line is just as terrible as the improved fortification feat. Can you uncouple them from the kensai req list? Maybe improve them to actually add damage?

And the inspired bravery lines for warchanters is also useless, any thoughts about handling seriously sub parr enhcancement requirements such as the aforementioned?

While improving these lines or doing away with them is important, I think you are missing out on one of the biggest benefits to this system. You don't have to take enhancements you don't want to in general. It looks like there's plenty of enhancements within a prestige tree that you can use to add up your points you need to qualify for a prestige so not only does this mean not taking bad enhancements like youve noted but it also helps builds like wizzies that were at odd int be able to drop int III a noramlly good enhancement. Feat prereqs have mostly been removed too another big plus.

[Vormaerin]

Yeah I don't like this much either at first glance... Every ranger is going to want favored enemies, so every ranger has just "locked in" Deepwood Sniper, only 2 class panels to go.... So my fighter/ranger/monk grabs SD and Tempest (just like now), but I get zero monk enhancements.

Devil is in the details, but that seems MORE limiting to me.

If you are single class, it doesn't sound like a problem to me. You have 39 points of enhancements beyond what you need to capstone your preferred choice. How is it different if you spend them on "generic" like now vs spend them in a tree you aren't otherwise developing? In both cases, they aren't helping you qualify for AA or Tempest, but you still have them.

Characters who are multiclassing primarily for specific enhancements rather than the class abilities are more likely to be having an issue. If you are a ranger/rogue, you may not be able to get every enhancement that you want.

I'm not really sure that the enhancements are the key abilities of these splash builds everyone is taking about, though. You still get the class abilities. Your Rogue 2 still gets Evasions, more Reflex Save, and +1d6 sneak attack damage. Your ranger still gets the base Favored Enemies. But your sneak attack training may not be worth taking instead of other options. in your other classes.

If there is less **** and more beef to the enhancement lines, then I think everyone will be better off. Even with only 1d6 SA instead of 1d6+3. Or whatever your third class splash enhancement got you.

[Aelonwy]

You have no idea what any of the math or weight of any enhancement or prestige will be at this point. Theres no reason to get angry this early in the process.

Keep in mind. Even though multiclass builds will have more to choose from then they do now, there MUST be a benefit to staying pure. That is why we are going to see at least some changes in the capstones as well.

Forgive me but I have every right and the freedom to feel whatever I feel at any point in time. There is usually a good reason to stay pure be it capstone or spell DCs or what have you. Part of the benefit of multiclassing was getting access to a couple of the new classes enhancements. Taking away reasons to multiclass takes away from creativity and versitality.

I specifically feel angry because it is my belief and point of view that arbitrarily tying general class enhancements to PrEs flies in the face of the following statement.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

Clearly I am not the only one that feels this way. If the importance to staying pure is placed too high -- I and many others might as well go play some other game.

I am restating myself here but "just remember and keep telling yourself general class enhancments were meant to be enjoyed by all in that class not any particular PrE... thats what PrE enhancments were for and their distinction."

[Vormaerin]

What about the improved critical accuracy enhancement line for fighters? That enhancement line is just as terrible as the improved fortification feat. Can you uncouple them from the kensai req list? Maybe improve them to actually add damage?

And the inspired bravery lines for warchanters is also useless, any thoughts about handling seriously sub parr enhcancement requirements such as the aforementioned?

Ummm....apples and oranges anyone? Improved Critical is largely irrelevant. Same with Inspired Bravery. That's not the same thing as an ability which renders your character effectively crippled.

Besides, the devs have repeatedly said that getting rid of subpar abilities is part of the function of this revision. Not to mention, the requirements will be less stringent overall. At least, unless you are seeking the Capstone level of investment in that enhancement line.

[Synthetic]

The same reason that a Barbarian wants more Strength and Paladins want more Charisma: it is the key component to having decent DPS as a rogue. But your post is exactly the mindset that I think most players and even the devs might slip into... if a rogue wants to do any type of DPS, it must be an Assassin only and the other two prestige classes are only there for flavor and/or utility.

Eladrin has pointed out that they may gain other DPS abilities - faster staff speeds for acrobats and intelligence to damage for Mechanic no doubt - pure class builds would be able to get the sneak attack damage also, but it wouldn't require 41 points to get all the sneak damage you could still be an acrobat the guys with hard choices are multi-class builds. While you may think well any multi-class would want sneak damage the barbarian acrobat rogue would probably be happier with faster swing speed while gaining more base damage from barbarian enhancements.

I don't agree. They are taking a class feat and pidgeon holing it into a PrE line. Class feats should be enhanceable across the entire class, not just one style.

It's not pigeonholing because you can take some from couple A and some from column B. If you take the most from column B then you're X with it's associated extra benefits, else you're A or C or a mix of all.

Over all I was nervous when I first read trees, but everything sounds pretty good. Though balancing out each PRE to be worth while could be tricky. Good luck

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

There is usually a good reason to stay pure be it capstone or spell DCs or what have you. Part of the benefit of multiclassing was getting access to a couple of the new classes enhancements. Taking away reasons to multiclass takes away from creativity and versitality.

Perhaps you missed this comment from Eladrin to my comment you are referencing?

This is true. Multiclass characters will have many more options to select from.

[Scraap]

Actually, here's a fresh question: Are PRE tiers going to remain at 6/12/18, or will we see more granularity there? Seems that would effect multi-classing considerably as well.