Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[oradafu]

Up to this point I have been happy/excited. But I wonder why everyone thinks its a good idea to divorce the generic(i.e. fighter str I,ect) from counting towards your pre. If you need to spend 41 ap to get tier 3 and none of the racial/race pre/generic ap counts then you would be lucky to get one pre to tier 3 and never get 2 like an elf aa/kensai could now. Come on people, there are to many math geeks here not to see this as a problem. just make generic ap count as base ap in your selected pre so only your accually pre ap spent would limit which pre's are locked in.

I'm no math geek, but I do see the problem. This is the problem:

Into the most appropriate tree, generally.


The Deepwood Sniper is built up as the "forester / hunter" line for the rangers, and has the Favored Enemy modifiers.

Extra Song is in the Virtuoso tree for Bards.

Multiclassed characters will have to decide whether a couple of enhancements from a class are worth locking that tree in as one of the three selectable ones. Of the sample characters we've built, my Arcane Archer monstrosity (that I talked about in one of the ranged threads) was forced to make this choice - I ended up dropping the extra sneak attack damage from the Assassin tree. (Half-Elf / Arcane Archer / Kensei / Warchanter was my build.)

Even though I have only being playing pure builds, I can see where this will be a problem with multi-classing. And I'm fearing it might even affect the pure class builds by forcing players into a Prestige class they don't want because the enhancements that I want are stuck in the "most appropriate" prestige class tree, for example all sneak attack damage being shoved into Assassin, so even if you don't max out sneak attack you'll still get a large portion of the Assassin enhancements thus forcing people who want Acrobats and Mechanics into an Assassin build (yet again).

I'm going to have to go back to my original statement that this tree system might not even be necessary and just tinkering with a system that works except for the collapsed enhancements resetting every time something is selected. As things look now, this new system is going to limit builds (some severely some moderately) which won't make several players happy since its locking options out and preventing true customization.

[Ziindarax]

Eladrin/Madfloyd, one of you mentioned enhancements stacking.

Here is what I am wondering about:

If I do a Barbarian/Fighter Multi-class, would the Fighter and Barbarian Toughnesses stack with one another?

How will the Ravenger Prestige work, and would they synergize well with a class like Artificer or Favored Soul?


Suggestions for the new enhancement system:

1) Place the "general" class enhancements in it's own tree, rather than putting them into one tree or another. For instance, extra song is an enhancement that all bard prestiges could benefit from. Thus, it should not be put in a specific tree. I share the same concern that several others have expressed - rather than creating more options, your current system seems to actually restrict/limit them. If this is the case, the current system would be infinitely better; just change the layout of how the enhancements are displayed.

I am not going to invest in the assassin tree (or worse, multiple trees) when all I want, for example, is sneak attack and evasion to add flavor to a particular build.

2) To me, it makes no sense that the Racial enhancements are more "expensive" in terms of action points used when someone can simply take a class and get those same benefits for less (I am referring to Stalwart Defender for both Warforged and Dwarves, though this should apply to all racial pre's). Is this higher cost due to the racial being much, much stronger than the class prestiges?

[dkyle]

I did gain a bunch of other interesting things, though, to make up for it.

Were those interesting new things added to those PrEs, or where they a creative combination of parts put together in a novel way? That's what I'm primarily concerned about with the three-tree limit. That all the "cool stuff" will be purely developer created, because our options to combine things in novel ways will be so starkly limited Splashes become less attractive since those few enhancements can't possibly be worth giving up a whole tree. Even 6 deep becomes less attractive.

If there's only three trees, and no generic class list, I fully expect to see every build with 1 Racial PrE tree, and 2 trees from an 18 or 20 main class. Races, given a base class and build goal, will be completely obvious choices. Splashes will be the only practical multiclasses; only for feats/evasion, never for enhancements. I doubt a 6 or 8 multi will see the light of day outside of flavor builds. Once Ninja Spy is finished, and I can access Stalwart Defender without fighter levels, I highly doubt I will be able to justify my Fighter 12/Monk 8 anymore over a Monk 20.

I would ask that you consider very carefully whether the three tree limit truly makes the game better, or if it's more about a clean UI. I know "choices" are good game design. But when it's a choice of a 2 or 6 level deep tree, vs a 12, 18 or 20 level deep tree, is the choice really anything but obvious? And that obvious choice ends up negating the less obvious choice of which enhancements to actually take from those splash/6-deep trees.

[CaptGrim]

This angers me, frustrates and completely dashes my hopes that this new enhancement UI will be an improvement. This does not augur well for the versatality of multiclass builds or multiclass characters. Your "limited" trees and "locking them in" is part of the problem.

These are my thoughts exactly.

If you cannot have unlimited panes for all PrEs in each chosen class, how about a 4th and 5th pane for the 2nd and 3rd chosen class. This would still likely cause problems with current builds but would be better than what is proposed.

Or, even better but lacking the consistancy (which I love and is much needed in the game)of the proposed system

A shrinking of PrE trees (to 31 perhaps) and the addition of a base class tree to fill in the must haves each class needs to function similarly as they do today.

BTW this system is the exact same as rift; 9 trees, chose 3 to "lock into", spend points in the tree to unlock root abilities along the bottom via points spent.

[BlackSteel]

Even though I have only being playing pure builds, I can see where this will be a problem with multi-classing. And I'm fearing it might even affect the pure class builds by forcing players into a Prestige class they don't want because the enhancements that I want are stuck in the "most appropriate" prestige class tree, for example all sneak attack damage being shoved into Assassin, so even if you don't max out sneak attack you'll still get a large portion of the Assassin enhancements thus forcing people who want Acrobats and Mechanics into an Assassin build (yet again).

You never know, but both trees might have sneak attack damage available. As has been pointed out, they both have dex enhancements and they are planning on having them stacking.

a possible bright side is that the proposed system should streamline your enhancements, since it has the potential to eliminate those useless prereqs on many PrEs. As the PrE's are unlocked simply by total investment in the tree, so as long as there is enough options available, those acrobats wont be spending all those AP on tumble enhancements.

[Desonde]

Into the most appropriate tree, generally.


The Deepwood Sniper is built up as the "forester / hunter" line for the rangers, and has the Favored Enemy modifiers.

Extra Song is in the Virtuoso tree for Bards.

Multiclassed characters will have to decide whether a couple of enhancements from a class are worth locking that tree in as one of the three selectable ones. Of the sample characters we've built, my Arcane Archer monstrosity (that I talked about in one of the ranged threads) was forced to make this choice - I ended up dropping the extra sneak attack damage from the Assassin tree. (Half-Elf / Arcane Archer / Kensei / Warchanter was my build.)

I did gain a bunch of other interesting things, though, to make up for it.

Any of the above are possible on a case by case basis. The spellcaster damage amplification ones are currently giving us the more interesting debates.

Some things are currently slated in multiple trees - we've got Assassin Dex I and II, for instance, alongside Thief-Acrobat Dex I and II in the Rogue trees. They're currently expected to stack.

That's one way to make the currently least useful PrE used :P place the major factor that makes the class used into the least used PrE class. I mean, this is going to be your most daunting task, deciding who gets what, and making sure they have enough usefull abilities. This causes problems when someone wanting to go Tempest III has to saturate into the AA/Race/DWS trees just get usefull enhancements, running the risk of not having the critical 41 pts for the capstone.

I do like that this is opening a lot of doors for more PrE blending (which is really fantastic, and gives me a whole bunch of ideas on how to abuse the system pretty badly), but there is an overwhelming 'cost' being tied to it requiring that level of higher thinking forcing a stronger blend between trees. Kind of like the simplest bravery bonus is actually extremely complicated requiring a whole lot of if's and if not's and while's and while not's.

[Tsuarok]

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!

You could just stick all that stuff under the race tab. Well... that might work well for wizards anyway... not too sure what you'd put in the sorc trees if you do that. IDK, good luck

[Ziindarax]

There are plenty of builds that, by level 20, have three classes.

With your "three tree" limit, That serves to imply that only two of the classes a player chooses will enable them to select prestiges, and the third classs won't be able to get any prestiges (and quite possibly won't be able to get ANY enhancements relative to that class what-so-ever). In fact, your three-tree limit would actually inhibit/discourage splashing into more than one class besides the main class.

I think the Enhancement UI changes would be MUCH better if we could have at least six trees to lock in. These trees could be accessible via a drop down tab that reveals the tree of a given prestige. It would be clean, concise, and easily manageable.

More trees = more choices = more fun and freeform.

[Urist]

And I'm fearing it might even affect the pure class builds by forcing players into a Prestige class they don't want because the enhancements that I want are stuck in the "most appropriate" prestige class tree, for example all sneak attack damage being shoved into Assassin, so even if you don't max out sneak attack you'll still get a large portion of the Assassin enhancements thus forcing people who want Acrobats and Mechanics into an Assassin build (yet again).

If you want significant sneak attack damage, why would you claim to want to be an Acrobat or Mechanic? Neither of those roles traditionally involve stabbing people from the shadows, as far as I'm aware.
Face it; if you sneak around killing people while their backs are turned, you're an Assassin, not a circus performer. :P

[Ganolyn]

The Deepwood Sniper is built up as the "forester / hunter" line for the rangers, and has the Favored Enemy modifiers.

This is a horrible idea. FE's are Ranger Feat and modifications to the damage to them should be available to all styles of Ranger no matter what weapons/style of play they choose to follow.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This angers me, frustrates and completely dashes my hopes that this new enhancement UI will be an improvement. This does not augur well for the versatality of multiclass builds or multiclass characters. Your "limited" trees and "locking them in" is part of the problem.

You have no idea what any of the math or weight of any enhancement or prestige will be at this point. Theres no reason to get angry this early in the process.

Keep in mind. Even though multiclass builds will have more to choose from then they do now, there MUST be a benefit to staying pure. That is why we are going to see at least some changes in the capstones as well.

[Theolin]

...

If you cannot have unlimited panes for all PrEs in each chosen class, how about a 4th and 5th pane for the 2nd and 3rd chosen class. This would still likely cause problems with current builds but would be better than what is proposed.

...

A shrinking of PrE trees (to 31 perhaps) and the addition of a base class tree to fill in the must haves each class needs to function similarly as they do today.

...

Just thought I'd 2nd this

[LeLoric]

This is a horrible idea. FE's are Ranger Feat and modifications to the damage to them should be available to all styles of Ranger no matter what weapons/style of play they choose to follow.

I think most rangers would actually be fine with this as long as they gain similar bonuses elsewhere. If tempest gets the same or more dps without the favored enhancements they will probably be happy as that means they are less focused on just a few enemy types.

Divorcing this stuff from tempest also makes it much easier to implement as a racial line as it won't require favored enemy feats to open up it's dmg bonus.

[pasterqb]

I can say that it won't come before mid year.

Will PREs be added before Midyear like Update 13? Or are they being put on the backburner til the UI comes out?

[Ebondevil]

Any of the above are possible on a case by case basis. The spellcaster damage amplification ones are currently giving us the more interesting debates.

My 2 cents on this, one thing I always took when playing an Archmage was the ability to swap around the elemental damage types pretty much at will, very useful if you know what mobs are immune to what, which I would love to see available btw.

So what I would suggest would be for the Archmage to get 3 lines for damage enhancement
1. All Elemental damage % increase damage
2. All Elemental damage Crit Chance Increase
3. All Elemental Crit bonus damage %,
Effectively rolling the 15 lines into 3, maybe increasing the costs or lowering the benefits?

Give the Pale master 3 lines for Negative Energy damage and Crits.

Similar could be applied to the third PrE for Arcane Damage, Reconstruction etc.(not Wild Mage, smacks too much of Forgotten Realms)

As for the Warforged Racial PrE, See Ebberon 3.5 edition pg 84: Warforged Juggernaut, would be much better inspiration than copying the Dwarves. The whole Immunity to Critical Hits and Healing which is currently available under Improved Fortification would make more sense rolled up into that where it belongs. Throwing in The additional Adamantine DR would also work here.

[Ziindarax]

This is a horrible idea. FE's are Ranger Feat and modifications to the damage to them should be available to all styles of Ranger no matter what weapons/style of play they choose to follow.

Second - This should be the case for ALL classes. "Pigeonholing" people into certain pre's to attain certain abilities is ridiculous, especially when (as I said in a previous post) the current system is MUCH bette in this regard - people still have choice.

[Eladrin]

I think most rangers would actually be fine with this as long as they gain similar bonuses elsewhere. If tempest gets the same or more dps without the favored enhancements they will probably be happy as that means they are less focused on just a few enemy types.

Divorcing this stuff from tempest also makes it much easier to implement as a racial line as it won't require favored enemy feats to open up it's dmg bonus.

I was in the middle of a post and hit preview, then accidentally deleted it. (My Forum-Fu is weak tonight!) But LeLoric sums up what I was writing pretty well.

Favored Damage is critical to some builds currently as the best way for Rangers to get additional damage, but with the new system there are new channels to get that sort of thing. Arcane Archers will be able to tier up their imbues. Tempests will have a little something as well to ramp up their damage from the new Dervish style enhancements.

[dkyle]

The whole Immunity to Critical Hits and Healing which is currently available under Improved Fortification would make more sense rolled up into the garbage heap of terrible ideas for any build where it belongs.

FTFY

Improved Fortification is the single worst feat in the game, by a longshot. Worse than useless. Making it part of a racial PrE for WF would be a huge step in the wrong direction.

Now, Juggernaut might not be a bad PrE. I'd actually prefer the Racial PrEs be relatively minor, but unique PrE options, than copies of class PrEs. But the healing immunity has to go.

[Redicular]

Even though I have only being playing pure builds, I can see where this will be a problem with multi-classing. And I'm fearing it might even affect the pure class builds by forcing players into a Prestige class they don't want because the enhancements that I want are stuck in the "most appropriate" prestige class tree, for example all sneak attack damage being shoved into Assassin, so even if you don't max out sneak attack you'll still get a large portion of the Assassin enhancements thus forcing people who want Acrobats and Mechanics into an Assassin build

how? maxing acro will cost ~41 points. sneak attack has been mentioned as having 5 ranks at (assumed) 1 point each

as far as pures are concerned, people seem to have missed: you no longer are locked into one PrE per class and one PrE per race

as I read it:
you can be a 20 halfling ranger, and if the points work out, tempest I, assasin I, Arcane archer I, AND deepwood I if you drop points in each of those trees.

putting favored enemy into deepwood has no more effect then the fact that favored enemy isn't a pre-req for tempest now

---
as far as multiclass builds.

lets look at an extremely common multiclass, 18 ranger 2 monk
currently, there is almost no downside to a ranger for taking those 2 monk levels.

they lose 1 favored enemy choice, 1 BAB, capstone access, and two level 4 spell slots

they gain access to T1 stance, two feats, 1 AC from being centered, wis to AC bonus, +1 wisdom enhancement, tier I animal trait enhancement, +3 will save, void strike I, and better unarmed attacks.

no brainer for a melee ranger.

under the new system
they lose 1 favored enemy choice, 1 BAB, capstone access, and two level 4 spell slots

they gain access to T1 stance, two feats, 1 AC from being centered, wis to AC bonus, +3 will save, better unarmed attacks and the CHOICE of dropping a ranger tree for a monk tree.

no longer a no-brainer(good) but there are still clear advantages to taking 2 monk levels

drop the AA tree(clearly going to be the most ranged focused tree, tempest is gonna get the melee boosts, deepwood is gonna get the favored boosts and probably 1/2 the ranged, AA is gonna get the casting and the other 1/2 of the ranged)
pick up the monk tree that has the enhancements you want
????
profit.

[oradafu]

If you want significant sneak attack damage, why would you claim to want to be an Acrobat or Mechanic? Neither of those roles traditionally involve stabbing people from the shadows, as far as I'm aware.
Face it; if you sneak around killing people while their backs are turned, you're an Assassin, not a circus performer. :P

The same reason that a Barbarian wants more Strength and Paladins want more Charisma: it is the key component to having decent DPS as a rogue. But your post is exactly the mindset that I think most players and even the devs might slip into... if a rogue wants to do any type of DPS, it must be an Assassin only and the other two prestige classes are only there for flavor and/or utility.