Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Havok.cry]

I like this mockup, but I also want different class abilities that are based on what outfit my girl puts on that morning.

And I want to be able to throw plat at enemies for damage.

FF x-2 DDO edition lol

as to the second line, play a caster, they can.

[grodon9999]

Stalwart Dwarf+Tempest Ranger doesn't strike me as a great combo. Yeah, the Tempest gives some AC, but unless we also get a serious AC revamp, that doesn't mean much. When going for serious AC (where it matters), the Stalwart would still want to pull out a shield. For a character that wants to have options for both great DPS, and a Stalwart Barbarian seems like a better choice to me, since the Barbarian would help both with DPS, and tanking with gigantic HP totals where AC isn't worthwhile.

As a proud owner of a 95+ AC 12/6/2 Stalwart II Tempest I, I gotta tell you your aren't even close to right. You use a shield for DR and getting cheesy % reduction from shield mastery. In anything where AC will work you don't actually need a shield.

For pure or mostly ranger . . . what's not to love about +6 STR/CON and 20% more HP above that? You've just "fixed" the ranger "issue" with just that, even if you dump AC completely on the toon. You're looking at fighter HP. Of course you just locked yourself out of rage, madstone, and double madstone so it's probably a wash . . .

Ravager HOrc+Tempest Ranger is hard to say, without knowing more. It's a combo clearly meant for high DPS. My gut is that Tempest Drow+Barbarian Ravager would be more DPS.

Yes, that looks potentially ubber if "ravager" does what we think it will with expanded crit-range and stuff.

Assassin Halfling+Tempest Ranger strikes me as almost strictly worse than Tempest Drow+Pure Rogue. Yes, the Ranger gets a little more "with-aggro" DPS against favored enemies, but the Rogue should get way more DPS in most situations.

Again, not much info to make those judgements, just my intuition at this point.

90 sneak attack damage a swing, on a 100% off-hand attack toon, is ubber no matter how you get there.

[Vordax]

Having just checked out the mockup interface, my first thought was: "oh my, that's a rather wide UI".
I guess we know now why the "Let's Talk: Screen Resolution" topic was brought up.

I suspect its wide to show more info in the mock up, actual implementation probably will be tabbed.

Vordax

[oradafu]

After seeing the mock-up, I'm going to have to lean towards not liking what I am seeing. As others have pointed out, it seems like this would make classes even more cookie-cutter than they already are. If it's just going to be a racial tree and some prestige trees, it looks like several things will be dropped. For me, it looks like it will be helping casters more than melees since casters will have a simpler spell manipulation tree, but melees will have a more constricted tree that forcing them into one of the 3 class prestige class whether they want it or not.

[grodon9999]

Oh no please not scimitars for tempest! if drow get tempest for racial pre = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Drizzt clones running round Eberron!! NNNOOOOOooooooo..... (runs out the room screaming !)

So what? It's more "D&D" than all the silly robot dogs.

it's it's not like the servers aren't already infested with them, this would give them and avenue of viability.

Love it or hate it, RA Salvatore is a huge part of D&D lore. The fact that the most famous character in D&D lore would be an utter gimp in this game is broken, these are good changes.

[Havok.cry]

For me, it looks like it will be helping casters more than melees since casters will have a simpler spell manipulation tree, but melees will have a more constricted tree that forcing them into one of the 3 class prestige class whether they want it or not.

Spell manipulation tree? Last I checked casters have PREs too. Their trees will likely coincide with those PRE's, possibly locking out certain amounts of their spell maniputation in the case of sorcs. Also note that the tree's capstone is acheived at 41 points in the tree... leaving 39 points to spend in another tree... that is 2 t3 prestiges with a bit left over... for ANY class.

[geoffhanna]

Last one on this topic.

I point out that halflings are a DEX race and would be better served with a DEX PrE and am told unrelated facts regarding TWF minimums.

I point out that Assassin will not compete at end game with the other racial PrEs and am told unrelated facts regarding butterflies.

I point out that Acrobat would be a better fit with halflings in traditional literature and D&D usage and am told unrelated facts comparing acrobats and assassins.

I point out that there are several other PrCs in the SRD that would be a better fit and am told ... crickets, no response.

I point out a minor feat that could be given to Acrobat and would make it a competitive PrE at end game as well as better fit for halflings and am told ... crickets, no response.

I understand that I am in the minority among people who are reading this thread. I do not believe that puts me in the minority among people who play the game, and most relevant to this topic, among people who like to play halflings.

At least I know a dev read my opinion. Did not agree, but at least read it.

Carry on with the debating l8r

[Ungood]

I have to say, at this point, you guys have me totally excited to see what you all finally bring to the table.

This is looking truly amazing, and I hope that it opens up the doors you all want to open.

I am going to reserve judgment on this till I see it more fleshed out, but I for one am excited about this change.

[karl_k0ch]

I, for one, welcome our new enhancement tree overlords.

[Havok.cry]

I point out that Assassin will not compete at end game with the other racial PrEs and am told unrelated facts regarding butterflies.

lolololololol

[quijenoth]

So what? It's more "D&D" than all the silly robot dogs.

You obviously dont get that Drizzt is Forgotten Realms, Iron Defenders and warforge is Eberron, Both are D&D.

Immersion is king. As I've said before DDO is actually quite far from D&D in computer format, but its still holding on to Eberron for its Immersion. Go away from that as well and it might as well be WoW.

[grodon9999]

You obviously dont get that Drizzt is Forgotten Realms, Iron Defenders and warforge is Eberron, Both are D&D.

Immersion is king. As I've said before DDO is actually quite far from D&D in computer format, but its still holding on to Eberron for its Immersion. Go away from that as well and it might as well be WoW.

Haven't forgotten, just don't care. Don't give a hoot about Eberon and never will. All the Eberon "stuff" is something I tolerate to play a game losely based on D&D.

[Cyr]

Some builds to consider based upon what we have seen so far (and the lack of any feat requirements possible on PrEs)...

SD + dwarf PM
SD + warforged arcane
Drow DC arcane through archamage + PM
Dwarf multiclass tank build based on tempest +SD...see grodon999's build
Dwarf Pure monk ninja spy 3 + SD for tanking or DPS purposes
Drow scimitar wielding assassin/tempest assuming that the player in question is not a fool and dumpstats str...
Mechanic + Battle Engineer Pure Artificer Helf
Halfling assassin 3 + Tempest
Halfing assassin 3 + Ninja spy
Horc Ravager (assuming it does what we think it will) + Kensai
Horc Ravager + Tempest
Dwarf Defender of Siberys 3 + SD 3
Horc Ravager + Warchanter
Dwarf/warforged Angel of Vengance + SD
Human Spellsinger + Angel of Vengance (for lots of spellcasting buffage by debuffing and buffing)

[grodon9999]

Some builds to consider based upon what we have seen so far (and the lack of any feat requirements possible on PrEs)...

SD + dwarf PM
SD + warforged arcane
Drow DC arcane through archamage + PM
Dwarf multiclass tank build based on tempest +SD...see grodon999's build
Dwarf Pure monk ninja spy 3 + SD for tanking or DPS purposes
Drow scimitar wielding assassin/tempest assuming that the player in question is not a fool and dumpstats str...
Mechanic + Battle Engineer Pure Artificer Helf
Halfling assassin 3 + Tempest
Halfing assassin 3 + Ninja spy
Horc Ravager (assuming it does what we think it will) + Kensai
Horc Ravager + Tempest
Dwarf Defender of Siberys 3 + SD 3
Horc Ravager + Warchanter
Dwarf Angel of Vengance + SD

Don't forget Halfling AA + Assassin 3 as long as it has 18 levels of ranger . . .

[Havok.cry]

You obviously dont get that Drizzt is Forgotten Realms, Iron Defenders and warforge is Eberron, Both are D&D.

Immersion is king. As I've said before DDO is actually quite far from D&D in computer format, but its still holding on to Eberron for its Immersion. Go away from that as well and it might as well be WoW.

I'm wondering why rapiers aren't good enough for tempests. Both rangers and drow are proficient in them, and they have the same stats as a scimitar. Only 2 differences are slashing/piercing and one was wielded by a fanboi idol that suffered from maincharacteritis.

[BOgre]

So here is the mockup that was promised.

Thank you so very much for that. Exactly what I was hoping you'd show us. And exactly what I was hoping you were going for as well! I'm betting there'll be bugs, as it looks like a LOT of work, but I'm really excited to get started!

Good job and good luck guys. This is going to be sweet.

[oradafu]

Spell manipulation tree? Last I checked casters have PREs too. Their trees will likely coincide with those PRE's, possibly locking out certain amounts of their spell maniputation in the case of sorcs. Also not that the tree's capstone is acheived at 41 points in the tree... leaving 39 points to spend in another tree... that is 2 t3 prestiges with a bit left over... for ANY class.

My worry is that it appears the generic class enhancements are being forced into the prestige class enhancements. As the mock up looks now for a pure class, the trees consist of Race and 3 prestige class enhancements. I was hoping for more of a Race + base class + skill + prestige class of tree, with the prestige class containing fewer but more powerful enhancements (similar to what we have now). But the looks of things, it appears that the generic stuff is being moved to the prestige classes, making more cookie cutter type builds. Perhaps I'm not explaining my worries very well, but for me, it looks like this new system will be forcing people into one direction instead of making it easier to customize the build.

[grodon9999]

I'm wondering why rapiers aren't good enough for tempests. Both rangers and drow are proficient in them, and they have the same stats as a scimitar. Only 2 differences are slashing/piercing and one was wielded by a fanboi idol that suffered from maincharacteritis.

Rapiers can already be finessed

[dejafu]

Things are looking a bit grim for Elves, to be honest. They've already got AA, and that's not getting them very much as it is.

I have to agree - either AA needs some serious boostage and/or there needs to be another elven racial option... Archmage, perhaps?

Oooh, wait, Palemaster is actually thematically perfect for Aerenal Elves, and could make for some REALLY fun builds!

[Thrudh]

Some builds to consider based upon what we have seen so far (and the lack of any feat requirements possible on PrEs)...

SD + dwarf PM
SD + warforged arcane
Drow DC arcane through archamage + PM
Dwarf multiclass tank build based on tempest +SD...see grodon999's build
Dwarf Pure monk ninja spy 3 + SD for tanking or DPS purposes
Drow scimitar wielding assassin/tempest assuming that the player in question is not a fool and dumpstats str...
Mechanic + Battle Engineer Pure Artificer Helf
Halfling assassin 3 + Tempest
Halfing assassin 3 + Ninja spy
Horc Ravager (assuming it does what we think it will) + Kensai
Horc Ravager + Tempest
Dwarf Defender of Siberys 3 + SD 3
Horc Ravager + Warchanter
Dwarf/warforged Angel of Vengance + SD
Human Spellsinger + Angel of Vengance (for lots of spellcasting buffage by debuffing and buffing)

These are mostly just race mixed with a pure class...

How does this new system work with the deeply multi-classed?

For instance, my halfling 12/6/2 fighter/ranger/monk.

Can I still get SD II, and Tempest I? And then also assasin III? Can I go higher in the SD and Tempest trees than I can today?