Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Failedlegend]

Might have missed another post in the thread explaining this, but what about Sorcerer...? It says in the "Mock-Up" that it will show the racial enhancements, and then 3 for class PrE's. But Sorcerers have 4 (Fire,Ice,Earth,Air Savant). Is this saying they are getting rid of one of the sorcerer PrE's? Or just not thinking about Sorcerer?

Other than that, the enhancement change i think will be greatly needed. Thanks for the heads up

IIRC the devs said it would count as one PrE and could choose the element from a drop down...but no mention of what the 3rd PrE will be for them since only Savant and Acolyte of the Skin have been announced

[Cyreonx]

You mean five prestige tabs for sorcerors, since I think they are still making acolyte of the skin. You'll probably end up having to pick the 3 you want. If its only 1 element per tree what happens to things that don't fit nicely in elemental casting such as force and repair spells?

[Failedlegend]

You mean five prestige tabs for sorcerors, since I think they are still making acolyte of the skin. You'll probably end up having to pick the 3 you want. If its only 1 element per tree what happens to things that don't fit nicely in elemental casting such as force and repair spells?

they'll probably get shoehorned into AotS by default...its one of about 1000 questions the devs have yet to answer and I doubt they'll say anything else until it hits lama in the new year...which if history is anything too go by it will be too late to change anything

[Glenalth]

Might have missed another post in the thread explaining this, but what about Sorcerer...? It says in the "Mock-Up" that it will show the racial enhancements, and then 3 for class PrE's. But Sorcerers have 4 (Fire,Ice,Earth,Air Savant). Is this saying they are getting rid of one of the sorcerer PrE's? Or just not thinking about Sorcerer?

Other than that, the enhancement change i think will be greatly needed. Thanks for the heads up

It would probably just be set up the same way Draconic Incarnation is where one tab covers 4 different dragon types.

[BlackSmith81]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

Well to it is broken, in two ways.
The whole APE (Action Point Enhancements) system makes feats look like **** and give, compared to the original game, huge benefits. I was thinking when they were introduced that they would work as clue and smoothener between the paper and online version, instead they give roughly as much extra power to a character as all his feats.
If there would be a option to turn off all APE's from the party when entering a quest, I know many D&D fans that would pick up the game. My own group included.
Enough of that, onward to the main question.
Ps. In D&D enhancement is reserved for spell school and item abilities thus adding third meaning to it is no go for me, so bear with the APE.

feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion.

There is no clear path to a specific APE nor a option to select a goal and the game picking up the APE's towards that goal while generating those points.
The limitations to pick up APE's (at starting levels) are simply annoying. I can't take anything useful or sometimes even fitting to my character as I haven't used enough points. So I end staring options like taking Subtle Backstabbing and following that with Brute Fighting. Only way around this is to take some feat that can be boosted, like toughness. That also means that getting some certain feats that you actually need to get the character in the flow, are pushed back.
I have burned good chunk of gold to resets because of the above issues.
I don't understand why the PrC's are done trough APE's instead of real classes with real prerequisites. There is no sacrifice done, no trade off what so ever. Everything is just gaining more power.
There is almost one exception in this and that's pale master. If the transformation would be permanent, not something you could simply turn on and loose at death, then being transformed to a undead would really need some consideration. Now a character without a PrC is a gimp compared to a puritist.
Going trough the APE's make my computer lurch, each time. I am afraid to change the way they are listed because it generates huge lag spike and my HD sounds like it is taking off. No, my computer's are not old.

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

...High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

Could you also fix in the process that PrC's would not be a boosters for certain class but represent more the original idea about being their own class.
In other words, instead of allowing only barbarians take certain PrC's, all those that can rage and have feats X Y Z to take it. This might not seem a issue but those that multiclass, making sacrifices to gain perks and to be able to make feats that otherwise would be impossible for single class representative, are being punished for trying to use the multiclass feature of DnD.
As an example all caster PrC's are class restricted, but in D&D they are restricted by feats and what kind of spells you can cast thus anyone that can pull the requirements can gain levels in that PrC. As an example the Tempest PrC. In D&D 3½ the prereq to become a tempest is the ability to swing weapons in both hands. Sure, ranger's get the feats to do so but nothing prevents a wizard with the requited feats picking up tempest PrC.
In DDO its always a ranger that becomes a tempest, even though they are not forced to focus only in TWF style. They also gain all the ranger benefits.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs).

Where are your balls? Sure, nerfing something rises a cry from those that have been exploiting that feature or riding the power wave, but that does not make it any less unbalanced or a bad call. Not being able to power down players makes the game roll with the endgame gamer's and forces the developers eventually to cheat, game mechanical vise.
If nothing can be done to the player's power except add, what options that leave to the developers.

I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

Then don't make it stressful. Show clearly what the player character gains from following that path. Not just the one step, but what is the result.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns.

How could change make things any worse? So bring it on!

So here is the mockup that was promised.

Thank You and to anyone that gave you permission to post this. Commenting somekind of mockup idea is lot easier.

Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

D&D 3½'s strongest features over other RPG's is the fact that races give very little benefit for certain roles or limit them. The more race APE's give benefit for certain class, the more game is pushed to limited class&race combos. Playing the "But you CAN take any class you want" -card is plain stupid if in reality those combos are turned down by group leaders because of the too big power gap.

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

If there are no feat prerequisites or disadvantages, this sounds lot like just a way to boost players more. Something they don't really need.

Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.)

If something needs to have a limit, it usually means that ability is too strong.
If you want to give some uber duper powers from a PrC (like now) then make the effects originate from multiple sources. Instead of giving all the candy after reaching a certain point, give the taste as early as possible but to make it really sweet, you need to build it up. This is the case in most well done D&D PrC's, but none seen in Turbine PrC's.
To give an example the PrC: Assassin I. It should not increase your SA at all as there is already a APE that does that. Bonus to confirm critical hits could be equal to how many points there are in APE: Spot, either directly or multiplied by X. Rather than having a chance to poison its target, it would be more appropriate that first attack always applies poison, from both weapons, and the character would automagicly coat the weapons in poison when hiding. That way getting back sneaking and staying undetected would have more value.
As there is already a APE that increases to-hit for SA's, that would also be dropped.
The poisons DC should again build from different source, be it knowledge: poison or as easy as directly the characters int bonus.

This way the PrC abilities don't become a huge power surge and they don't need to cost more AP's that you get at one level. Instead if the player wants the ability to be really powerful, he needs to spend points to build it such.

Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip

Please make sure the tooltips are not trivial. Tooltip that just says the same thing again makes me pull my hair.

Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. Knife Attack leads to Knife Damage, which then leads to Knife Specialization. An enhancement that has another as a prerequisite cannot have a rank higher than its prerequisite, so to get Knife Damage III, the player must have Knife Attack III. To get Knife Spec IV, the player must have both Knife Attack IV and Knife Damage IV.

At the present situation, these APE chains usually leave out weapons or exclude others. If you have chosen a weapon that is not the most common one, the PrC usually looses its edge.
e.g. In D&D deity's offer multiple options for their chosen weapon and with some feat sacrificing character can use some more exotic ones. In Turbine D&D this could be seen as the benefits being given to any of the deity's weapons or that with couple extra AP's burned, you could swing some other weapon while gaining the benefits.

Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree.

This generates power surge and sweet spots.

Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer.

This is really handy, but why not make the whole none-dungeon part to happen in dialogs then, eh?
Instead of removing the trainers, I would rather see a real function with them. If I choose something, a new ability or such, the trainer would show me what it does and how it affects my character. I.o. Make the trainers give me the information I now read from wiki when seeking enlightenment.

[Failedlegend]

Well to it is broken, in two ways.
The whole APE (Action Point Enhancements) system makes feats look like **** and give, compared to the original game, huge benefits. I was thinking when they were introduced that they would work as clue and smoothener between the paper and online version, instead they give roughly as much extra power to a character as all his feats.
If there would be a option to turn off all APE's from the party when entering a quest, I know many D&D fans that would pick up the game. My own group included.

Their NOT going to remove the Enhancement System, if you don't want to use the enhancement system...don't. Simple as that

There is no clear path to a specific APE nor a option to select a goal and the game picking up the APE's towards that goal while generating those points.

The devs have said their already planning on making pre-reqs etc. much clearer, personally though I hope their really careful about not making it TOO clear by sacrificing the current versatility of the system

The limitations to pick up APE's (at starting levels) are simply annoying. I can't take anything useful or sometimes even fitting to my character as I haven't used enough points. So I end staring options like taking Subtle Backstabbing and following that with Brute Fighting. Only way around this is to take some feat that can be boosted, like toughness. That also means that getting some certain feats that you actually need to get the character in the flow, are pushed back.

This I have to say is a PITA, having to take random enhancements you don't care about to get what you want due to "AP Spent" requirement.

I don't understand why the PrC's are done trough APE's instead of real classes with real prerequisites. There is no sacrifice done, no trade off what so ever. Everything is just gaining more power.

Personally I prefer it this way it's actually similar to the "Guild" system I houseruled back when I played 3.5e I made it so people would be able to take 1-3 bases classes than could join a Guild/clan/order of some sort (possibly two if it makes sense)

There is almost one exception in this and that's pale master. If the transformation would be permanent, not something you could simply turn on and loose at death, then being transformed to a undead would really need some consideration.

As little as I would care since my PMs rarely ever leave form this is another thing you can regulate yourself and really would **** off a large amount of people.

Now a character without a PrC is a gimp compared to a puritist.

Again this is not a systems issue this is a you issue

Going trough the APE's make my computer lurch, each time. I am afraid to change the way they are listed because it generates huge lag spike and my HD sounds like it is taking off. No, my computer's are not old.

Again this is a you issue not a system issue

Could you also fix in the process that PrC's would not be a boosters for certain class but represent more the original idea about being their own class.
In other words, instead of allowing only barbarians take certain PrC's, all those that can rage and have feats X Y Z to take it. This might not seem a issue but those that multiclass, making sacrifices to gain perks and to be able to make feats that otherwise would be impossible for single class representative, are being punished for trying to use the multiclass feature of DnD.

Yes and no, as much as I'd love to be able to take Kensai on my Paladin this IMO will actually give less reason to multi-class since the PrE are a big part of WHY people multi-class...there's a reason popular break points are 6,12 & 18 (with the new system as far as we know this will become 3,6,9,12,15,18,20) on the other hand it would mean multi-classes could take full PrEs...I'm not sure how the dice would land on this but it would likely be a huge undertaking and be a balance nightmare for the devs (3.5 was unbalanced to all hell) If they could pull of properly I'd be all for it though

In DDO its always a ranger that becomes a tempest, even though they are not forced to focus only in TWF style. They also gain all the ranger benefits.

Personally I think rangers should be made to choose melee or ranged a-la PnP but they should also get more spells and an animal companion a-la Druid (but make it feline to distinguish them)

Where are your balls? Sure, nerfing something rises a cry from those that have been exploiting that feature or riding the power wave, but that does not make it any less unbalanced or a bad call. Not being able to power down players makes the game roll with the endgame gamer's and forces the developers eventually to cheat, game mechanical vise. If nothing can be done to the player's power except add, what options that leave to the developers.

No need to cheat DnD has a plethora of nasty monsters each stronger than the last...and regardless of whether DDO is a low magic or high magic there will always be a best combo and people will always flock to it even if its only 0.0000001% better.

D&D 3½'s strongest features over other RPG's is the fact that races give very little benefit for certain roles or limit them. The more race APE's give benefit for certain class, the more game is pushed to limited class&race combos.

I agree in the fact that races shouldn't be glaringly better at anything in paticular but I do think each class needs their schtick...like Elves should be ipso facto Archers and Longsword wielders, A Dwarf with a D-Axe should be epic...you know stuff their racially inclined to do...Warforged should be great fighters and due to their inherent magical nature spellcasters...halflings should be masters of stealth, trickers and light weapons (either thrown or thrust)

That said Racial PrEs should not be the same as class PrEs they should be unique PrEs that add something interesting not necessarily something uber powerful...like Halflings Talentia Outrider should get a Dino Companion, movement speed boosts,etc. Dwarves could get Dwarven Defender which instead of being a copy of DoS or SD it would focus on magnifying the dwarfs natural defensive abilities like immunity to knockdown, inimidate bonuses, bonuses to shield/armor dex bonus, bonus saves vs. spells, immune to poison stuff like that.

snip-PrEs are too powerfyl and I keep saying APE for some reason-snip-

Sorry you said this like 50 different ways in multiple paragraphs...yes their powerfdul their supposed to be, if they weren;t powerful no one would take them/

At the present situation, these APE chains usually leave out weapons or exclude others. If you have chosen a weapon that is not the most common one, the PrC usually looses its edge.
e.g. In D&D deity's offer multiple options for their chosen weapon and with some feat sacrificing character can use some more exotic ones. In Turbine D&D this could be seen as the benefits being given to any of the deity's weapons or that with couple extra AP's burned, you could swing some other weapon while gaining the benefits.

Yeah FvS do need more signature weapons it's really limiting right now...either that or the bonus needs to be increase..alot +1to-hit/+2 damage is pathetic

This generates power surge and sweet spots.

ummm...I hate to say this but...so? thats going to happen regardless at least the PrE system makes it easier for a newer player to spot

[MRMechMan]

.
How could change make things any worse? So bring it on!

"New is always better"

-Barney Stinson

[BlackSmith81]

Their NOT going to remove the Enhancement System, if you don't want to use the enhancement system...don't. Simple as that

Congrats, you missed the point. Both of them.

I hope their really careful about not making it TOO clear by sacrificing the current versatility of the system

Excuse-moi? What versatility? How could anything be too clear?

Personally I prefer it this way it's actually similar to the "Guild" system I houseruled back when I played 3.5e I made it so people would be able to take 1-3 bases classes than could join a Guild/clan/order of some sort (possibly two if it makes sense)

You prefer that there is no need for sacrifices? So instead of trying to keep the (prestige) classes balanced, everyone in the guild was more powerful than those that were not.
Sure, that sounds exactly as DDO's PrC's.

As little as I would care since my PMs rarely ever leave form this is another thing you can regulate yourself and really would **** off a large amount of people.

And because you can regulate it yourself, do you even consider it to be a feature that you would not want thus returning to my point al lthe PrC's are all about gaining power, not about trade-offs.

Again this is not a systems issue this is a you issue

Again and a you issue?
Are you suggesting that I am the only one that has a weaker character if do not choose PrC for it? I can assure that the phenomena is global.

Again this is a you issue not a system issue

Hardly, I get the same effect with having CPU:20%*1 and 95%*6 . Its more about badly designed data handling.

Yes and no, as much as I'd love to be able to take Kensai on my Paladin this IMO will actually give less reason to multi-class since the PrE are a big part of WHY people multi-class...

Please rephrase.
I also think you missed the fact that there should be no class requirements, but ability requirements like in D&D.

it would mean multi-classes could take full PrEs...I'm not sure how the dice would land on this but it would likely be a huge undertaking and be a balance nightmare for the devs

I fail to see how it would be nightmare to balance. As there is no trade-offs in the system, you only need to balance the PrC's against each other.

3.5 was unbalanced to all hell

Either we have been playing different D&D's but 3½ has been the most balanced D&D this far. Only thing tht was not balanced was the psionic combat (that was revised in the extension).

Personally I think rangers should be made to choose melee or ranged a-la PnP but they should also get more spells

If they got enough wisdom to grant extra slots, the sure give 'em more spell slots.

...an animal companion a-la Druid (but make it feline to distinguish them)

They have summon animal already. Companion is a strong class feature.

No need to cheat DnD has a plethora of nasty monsters each stronger than the last...

And still they cheat. NPC's and PC's should all be subject to the same rules.

regardless of whether DDO is a low magic or high magic there will always be a best combo and people will always flock to it even if its only 0.0000001% better.

Does it matter if the mage joining your team have 1,300 or 1,3001 SPs? Hardly, but leaders do notice when two characters at the same level have twice the difference in HPs, only because of the other one has two items the other one is missing. I.o. Item(s) is giving remarkably much more benefit than the class itself. Something that does not belong to D&D. You are playing a character, not a wardrobe.

I agree in the fact that races shouldn't be glaringly better at anything in paticular but I do think each class needs their schtick

And they get that kind of bonuses already. Sure, it is not +10 to this and that, but it is a bonus that makes them better in that one thing than any other race. Not much but thats the point.
Btw the racial dwarf bonuses is not to axes, but vs giants. Coming from the century long wars between them and giants. And warforgeds are natural fighters vs undead, thanks for their immunity all kind of nasty negative powers.

That said Racial PrEs should not be the same as class PrEs they should be unique PrEs that add something interesting not necessarily something uber powerful...like Halflings Talentia Outrider should get a Dino Companion, movement speed boosts,etc. Dwarves could get Dwarven Defender which instead of being a copy of DoS or SD it would focus on magnifying the dwarfs natural defensive abilities like immunity to knockdown, inimidate bonuses, bonuses to shield/armor dex bonus, bonus saves vs. spells, immune to poison stuff like that.

You consider none of those uber? Kinda proves my point. Characters have so much power nowadays and immunity's that gaining handful of bonuses and immunity's for just being member of one race is not considered powerful. Back in the days there were two things that were immune to disease, those being warforgeds and paladins. Oh, they were so über and special. Now being immune to disease is a standard, not a speciality.

Sorry you said this like 50 different ways in multiple paragraphs...yes their powerfdul their supposed to be, if they weren;t powerful no one would take them/

50 different ways and still you fail to grasp why its bad they are so powerful. As there is nothing to loose, of course people would take them. They would take them even if it would cost 50 AP's to get 10 SP.
And like I said in the first paragraph in my post, enhancement is a word that is already used in D&D to a totally different thing and the Action Point Enchantments (short of APE) accurately describes what they really are.

Yeah FvS do need more signature weapons it's really limiting right now...either that or the bonus needs to be increase..alot +1to-hit/+2 damage is pathetic

+1 to-hit and +2 damage is equivalent to two feats. How many feats you gain per level? Does it sound weak now? Its not weak at all, way more powerful than it should be.

thats going to happen regardless at least the PrE system makes it easier for a newer player to spot

Well, they are sign of bad design. Power should grow gradually, not in leaps.

[Failedlegend]

Blacksmith I'm sorry I'm not trying to be mean but you may as well the creators of tetris that you don't like stacking blocks...their not going to change the way the entire game functions because you prefer a lower power setting (which most of your complaints can be self-enforced) at this time there's not point debating this with you any further since this is clearly not the game you want to play.

[BlackSmith81]

Blacksmith I'm sorry I'm not trying to be mean but you may as well the creators of tetris that you don't like stacking blocks...

Your metaphor is lacking or either you didn't read my post carefully enough/understand the game the online version is based upon.
I love stacking blocks but in DDO its not (anymore) about skill how to get all different kind of pieces to mix and match to have best out come. Its about having huge, three different kind of blocks that you slam together. To me that does not sound like tetris, more like bowling.

their not going to change the way the entire game functions because you prefer a lower power setting (which most of your complaints can be self-enforced) at this time there's not point debating this with you any further since this is clearly not the game you want to play.

I fail to see how D&D 3½ is anyway "lower power setting" and I also fail to see how current DDO is high power setting.
In D&D getting someone tripped, feared or blind is something from surviving is almost an miracle and getting +1 to hit means the character is effectively (at least) one level higher he normally would be in melee situations.
In DDO there is so much power build up that the NPC's need to match it thus there is no real feel of power or either there is no more challenge, both bad things to have in a game. It is not high power to make 1000 points of damage if one of the targets has 10 000 HPs. Making 20 points of damage to target that has 100 HPs is lot more earth shaking.

Sorry, but the action point enhancements sure do increase the numbers the characters have and do but they do not increase the actual power level in the game. They force the developers to move the game towards big numbers, little functions.

[HastyPudding]

People keep talking about the sorcerer PrE's, as in there being 5 of them (possibly 6 but I never heard of a 3rd type). They say there is only room for 3 trees, but I had an idea.

Split up the savants into 2 trees instead of 4. Have a Storm Savant (ice and lightning) and an Earth Savant (fire and acid). This gives 2 savant PrE's, and then adds the Acolyte of the Skin to make 3.

Now, if they had another PrE in mind, you could put all 4 savants into 1 tree, then add the acolyte, and that leaves room for another. You could have 4 separate trees inside the savant PrE, each dealing with a specific element and have them connected only to themselves, so as to prevent generalization, and name it Elemental Savant.

[bigolbear]

People keep talking about the sorcerer PrE's, as in there being 5 of them (possibly 6 but I never heard of a 3rd type). They say there is only room for 3 trees, but I had an idea.

Split up the savants into 2 trees instead of 4. Have a Storm Savant (ice and lightning) and an Earth Savant (fire and acid). This gives 2 savant PrE's, and then adds the Acolyte of the Skin to make 3.

Now, if they had another PrE in mind, you could put all 4 savants into 1 tree, then add the acolyte, and that leaves room for another. You could have 4 separate trees inside the savant PrE, each dealing with a specific element and have them connected only to themselves, so as to prevent generalization, and name it Elemental Savant.

no this is exactly the kind of pigeon holing most of us a railing against.

Far better to have

1. savant (pick a primary) element dropdown to get extra bonuses with and 3 drop downs for multiple choice from ALL spell power types - the first of which could default to the primary element you picked.
2. acolyte: 3 drop downs from ALL spell power types.
3. some new prestige, I suggested warmage - which was actualy a class in 3.5 would would make a good prestige in DDO.

[Failedlegend]

People keep talking about the sorcerer PrE's, as in there being 5 of them (possibly 6 but I never heard of a 3rd type). They say there is only room for 3 trees, but I had an idea.

Split up the savants into 2 trees instead of 4. Have a Storm Savant (ice and lightning) and an Earth Savant (fire and acid). This gives 2 savant PrE's, and then adds the Acolyte of the Skin to make 3.

Now, if they had another PrE in mind, you could put all 4 savants into 1 tree, then add the acolyte, and that leaves room for another. You could have 4 separate trees inside the savant PrE, each dealing with a specific element and have them connected only to themselves, so as to prevent generalization, and name it Elemental Savant.

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure the Devs have already confirmed that Savant will be treated as one PrE with a drop-down to select the relevant element, than of course Acolyte of the Skin is the second but that begs the question what is the third?

Sidenote: Savant should be extended to include versions for Force/Repair (think its called Argent Savant)
Translated into DDO this is what I few Prestige Classes I wouldn't mind seeing added

Incantatrix? Free Meta Feats, Reduced or even free meta cost, Arty like bonuses to wands/scrolls, Ghost touch, true sight, Banish/Teleport/Greater Teleport SLA, Immune to Energy Drain and Insta-Kills, A X/Rest ability that grants quicken for Y amount of seconds.

Nightmare Spinner? Immune to Fear, Extra Spell Slots, New Metamagic (Nightmare Infusion) adds a scaling shaken effect to any spells which can stack up to 3 times the first time dealing 1d6 damage, the second dealing 2d6 damage than the 3rd and beyond time dealing 3d6, X Times a Day you can attempt to Insta-kill a creature affected by Nightmare infusion (10+cha mod+sorc level), anyone within 5 ft of you is subject to the fear spell for 3 seconds on a failed save (10+cha mod+sorc level),

Blood Mage? Bonus to Concentration (adds level to Concentration check), Can convert HP to SP (uses blood to increase SP Pool), Free Die Hard feat, deals bleeding damage on spells, DR/Bludgeoning, a single target attack that allows the user to cause a enemioes blood to try to escape from its body does HUGE damage but has a really long cooldown...like 10 minutes or something, A Monk/air savant/FvS type jump except leaves trails of blood behind causing bleeding damage to any enemies you pass (technically your supposed to be teleporting from one monster to the next bursting out of their blood)

Sidenote: Nightmare Spinner and Blood Mage would actually be pretty good Prestige classes to cherry pick some stuff to add to AotSs repitoire to give it a bit more oomph

<Colour> Star Adept? Sorc Level/DR (type is based on colour ie. Green = Adamantine) Natural Armor Bonus, Str/Con Bonus, Dexterity Penalty, Bonus to unarmed damage,dark vision, Fortification (100% by end), gain some Construct aspects (immune to disease, breathing & can be healed by repair), <Colour> Tinge to skin...maybe a Crystal construct like look, Repair Amp, "Precious Gem" (based on chosen colour) Perfection capstone ability your race is changed to Living Construct, gain even more DR, Str and Con, become immune to poison, stunning, death affects, paralysis and neg energy drain (and a few other necromatic abilities), Is healed by <chosen color> element and gains the die hard feat but divine healing is only half as effective (Immune? or like 10% effective)

Sidenote: Colors - Green = Emerald/Acid/Adamantine, Red = Ruby/Fire/Flametouched Iron, White = Diamond/Cold/Silver, Blue = Sapphire/Electric/Mithral, Black = Obsidian/Neg Energy/Byeshk, Purple = Amethyst/Force/Crystal

As for Warmage, Eldritch Knight, Arcanamach and other Battlemage type Prestiges along with prestiges that are clearly meant for more than one class like Ultimate Magus or Sacred Fist I'd rather see implemented as "Hybrid" PrEs...take sacred fist for example it would look something like this (based on most recent things posted by devs)

Tier 1 Bonus: Monk1/Divine1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Monk2/Divine2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Monk4/Divine4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Monk5/Divine5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Monk6/Divine6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Monk7/Divine7 CL 18
Capstone: Monk8/Divine8 CL 20

So as you can see a Cleric 18/Monk2 would be able to take up to Tier 2 in the prestige tree

So an Example Would be say a Cleric12/Monk6/Fighter2 and his 3 trees could be Radiant Servant Tier 4/Shintao Monk Tier 2/Sacred Fist Tier 4...between the RS healing aura and the Monk Healing Punch this build would probably be really good at keeping everyone healed whilst still being able to hold his/her own as a warrior...I could go into detail but you get the idea.

[-Avalon-]

Ok, first off, been away a bit of time (from forums, not game), and I just woke up and have not really finished waking up fully... so be cautioned

3.5 was wonderfully balanced IMO. One of the primary reasons it worked was that when picking a PrC, you had to forego taking levels in something else... but not only that... the PrC's were often 5 or 10 level classes. In DDO, the way they chose to implement them was to add enh lines that, for the most part, are 3 tier additions to the already existing system.

This creates two problems (that I think the devs have handled well, but is lacking nonetheless):
1- Compression of 10 levels of power into 3 Tiers
2- Continuance of progression in primary classes WHILE leveling in a PrE

The reason they seem so powerful, is because of these 2 things. Anytime you condense 10 into 3, it will be 3 times the power (not just games, but pretty much everything... think about OJ or Pine Sol). Add onto that, there is no loss of primary power to add in the gains of a PrE. There is only a minor loss of Secondary power- IE enhancements, due to spending a few action points into PrE's instead of something else. I spend more points on being able to cast spells in armor than I do on Palemaster, btw, so IMO the amount spent on PrE's is just laughable (7 pts to have PMII and Wraith+Vampire vs 10 to have -10% ASF in Heavy Armor)

The only PrE I think has it mostly right, is Archmage. It is 5 tiers for 5 levels. In 3.5 Archmage was 5 levels (IIRC), so translated into 5 tiers? Works. But you still have no subbing out your main class for it, this I am mostly fine with as long as the power creep is still roughly the same. 10 lvl PrC's should translate into 10 Tiers. Palemaster, Kensai, etc etc, should be 10 tier enhancements (2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20)... spread the power out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for Rangers... wow... that discussion has been had before, I still think my idea for making a BSB (Base Spellcasting Bonus) is the way to go... too often I see paladins/rangers as ignoring they even have spells, or only using them when soloing (sometimes not even then, this I know from listening to friends relate stories of them playing their toons)... this would be fixed by adding in an amount of BSB (sort of like BAB) where every class advances your spellcasting ability even if it doesn't have spells as part of the class (reason: just as a fighter still advances in fighting ability when he takes 2 levels of wizard, so should a wizard continue gaining casting ability (caster level) when taking a few levels of fighter... neither of them STOPPED using their abilities just because they dipped into another class)

I think rangers SHOULD get a pet like druids... the only reasons they do not, is because druids make money for the game (rangers do not) and failure to backwards program (druids are recent, so they are cooler, rangers are ancient and therefore not as cool)... If they did go back and fix prior items based on newer things, then rangers probably still wouldn't because of the money issue.

At the very least, I think BSB should be a reality, not because I came up with it, but because it would solve the disparity between spellcasting and non-spellcasting. We see builds all the time that are 12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk, or 12 Rog/6 Ftr/2 Rng, etc etc... a lot of 3 class mixes that break on the natural lines set up due entirely to PrE's... But how often do we see 12 Wiz/6 Clr/2 ftr, or 12 Clr/6 Ftr/2 Rog, or anything in the same sense? None. Why? Loss of casting level. Not so much loss of spells, because we see people who have chosen to go burn instead of insta-kill a good bit, so that isn't the issue. The problem is that caster levels break when you cross-class. Not even 12 Wiz/6 Sor/2 Brd (all arcane)... so it isn't even as simple as 'keep it in same type)...

If pure melees had a 1/3 progression, hybrids had 2/3, and pures had full BSB progression... think that would fix it. 12 Wiz/6 Ftr/2 Pal would have 15 BSB then, and not be SOO bad... 12 Clr/8 Wiz would still have a 20 BSB and be very viable as a thought at least.

Sorry if this seems off-topic, but in relation to the Rangers issue that was brought up, it makes a huge difference. 20 Rng would have 12 or 13 BSB (not sure how it would calculate) but if they then made summons equal to BSB for the CR's, then their summon nature's ally IV would summon a 12 or 13 CR creature. Add in augment, druid past lives, etc, and it would be even stronger, and maybe be worth more than just window dressing. And the summon's need fixing, sense at 25th lvl, doing an EE quest at roughly same level... that Summon Monster IX spell summoning CR 16 creatures?? Who uses these spells?!? Even PMIII's action point bought skeletons are abysmally low for anything past 20... even though the Epic Destinies continue to buff our caster levels? 25th lvl, with proper items and destinies, could have 26-28 Caster Level (I believe)... so why can we not summon better creatures than we could when we were 17?

Back to main topic: (I apologize for being a bit wandering again) Since it is impossible to emulate D&D, I do not see them ever putting into place a system where you stop leveling your primary classes to start leveling a secondary class (IE PrC)... in that case, my only wish is that they at least break them down into a LOT more little tiers rather than continue lumping 3.333 levels of a PrC into a single tier of PrE, because that REALLY throws the power curve for a loop, and if they are planning on doing it like destinies are done, then 5-6 tiers is a heck of a lot better than THREE (I'd prefer TEN, but 5 or 6 will work fine I suppose)

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I agree with Blacksmith81's assertion that PrEs inflate numbers, not power, because NPCs are balanced against the available options. One of the unintended casualties of big numbers and tax-code-like complexity in PrEs is that casuals either read the forums (they generally don't, though; they're casuals), they get mentoring from a guild mate (possible, but uneven in who gets reached), or they fall behind in the power curve, over time. That creates a bigger retention problem for new and casual players, even if it satisfies some vets. I'd favor lower number boosts from PrEs, in large part for that reason.

There's another problem that arises from mixing and matching PrEs (ie: take as many PrEs as you can, whenever you want), and that affects everybody. The devs have a built-in incentive to reduce balance problems and bug fixes; both cost them goodwill from players and fixing those problems is not likely to be a source of great enjoyment to the devs. With a mix and match PrE system in place, the devs have an incentive to keep all the most easily reached parts of any PrE as bland and generic as possible, so that whatever combination is put together by players, there are relatively few bugs to fix and the power curve for all characters doesn't shift remarkably upward.

Compare that to a situation in which players can only select one PrE per character; in that situation, the devs have a lot more freedom to make even the lower reaches of all PrEs meaningfully distinct in their focus.

Long story short, the most frequent posters in this forum calling for "infinite variety" will end up with dozens of versions of vanilla, if the "mix and match" PrE system stays in place.

[Failedlegend]

3.5 was wonderfully balanced IMO. One of the primary reasons it worked was that when picking a PrC, you had to forego taking levels in something else... but not only that... the PrC's were often 5 or 10 level classes. In DDO, the way they chose to implement them was to add enh lines that, for the most part, are 3 tier additions to the already existing system.

You must have played a different game than me, I mean once I got used to DMing and implemented some choice house rules my home games were fine also my players made characters based on their story not on how powerful they are but when I first started DMing (before I removed the weeds) and if I ever played official game/played in some elses vanilla or close vanilla game at least half the players would have characters who were broken and the roleplayers would be made so useless by this.

This creates two problems (that I think the devs have handled well, but is lacking nonetheless):
1- Compression of 10 levels of power into 3 Tiers
2- Continuance of progression in primary classes WHILE leveling in a PrE

#1 - Their changing it to be 3,6,9,12,15,18,20 so 7 tiers so more than enough break points

#2 Overall there's alot of stuff the classes don't have that their PnP counterparts do and who really cares if their a little stronger as long as the monsters match....this isn't a PvP game its PvE and as long as all the PCs are relatively the same power level (doesn't have to be perfect) its honestly doesnt matter. The point where it would matter is actually if their too weak tyhan it just feels like a bunch of peasents fighting off some sickly goblins instead of heroes fighting gods

10 lvl PrC's should translate into 10 Tiers. Palemaster, Kensai, etc etc, should be 10 tier enhancements (2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20)... spread the power out.

I'd be fine with this. I'd like to see how you would break up existing PrEs from today though

As for Rangers... wow... that discussion has been had before, I still think my idea for making a BSB (Base Spellcasting Bonus) is the way to go... too often I see paladins/rangers as ignoring they even have spells, or only using them when soloing (sometimes not even then, this I know from listening to friends relate stories of them playing their toons)... this would be fixed by adding in an amount of BSB (sort of like BAB) where every class advances your spellcasting ability even if it doesn't have spells as part of the class (reason: just as a fighter still advances in fighting ability when he takes 2 levels of wizard, so should a wizard continue gaining casting ability (caster level) when taking a few levels of fighter... neither of them STOPPED using their abilities just because they dipped into another class)

Not disagreeing with you but I personal prefer that this kind of stuff be handled by "Hybrid" PrEs (see my last post)

I think rangers SHOULD get a pet like druids... the only reasons they do not, is because druids make money for the game (rangers do not) and failure to backwards program (druids are recent, so they are cooler, rangers are ancient and therefore not as cool)... If they did go back and fix prior items based on newer things, then rangers probably still wouldn't because of the money issue.

At the very least, I think BSB should be a reality, not because I came up with it, but because it would solve the disparity between spellcasting and non-spellcasting. We see builds all the time that are 12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk, or 12 Rog/6 Ftr/2 Rng, etc etc... a lot of 3 class mixes that break on the natural lines set up due entirely to PrE's... But how often do we see 12 Wiz/6 Clr/2 ftr, or 12 Clr/6 Ftr/2 Rog, or anything in the same sense? None. Why? Loss of casting level. Not so much loss of spells, because we see people who have chosen to go burn instead of insta-kill a good bit, so that isn't the issue. The problem is that caster levels break when you cross-class. Not even 12 Wiz/6 Sor/2 Brd (all arcane)... so it isn't even as simple as 'keep it in same type)...

Actually the tech for companions wasn't finished until Artificers were released and I don't know if you remember but it was buggy as hell (Druids as well), still is so it's got nothing to do with them being P2P they will probably add Animal Companions to Rangers later....although I'd only approve if they had to choose their combat style a-la PnP...would be nice to seem them get a few more spells (variety I mean not spell slots)

Summons are underpowered in general and should scale with level

Sorry for Paraphrasing yeah Av, Anyways I agree it really should scale with caster level or at least heighten should cause it to do so, also IMO the PM "Summons" should actually function like Druid/Arty Companions with the enhancements allowing you to go down the "Knight", "Archer" or "Mage" line with each having further customization from there (all of each "types" enhancements would have the type pre-req of course so the knight couldn't take fire magic spell power)

Back to main topic: (I apologize for being a bit wandering again) Since it is impossible to emulate D&D, I do not see them ever putting into place a system where you stop leveling your primary classes to start leveling a secondary class (IE PrC)... in that case, my only wish is that they at least break them down into a LOT more little tiers rather than continue lumping 3.333 levels of a PrC into a single tier of PrE, because that REALLY throws the power curve for a loop, and if they are planning on doing it like destinies are done, then 5-6 tiers is a heck of a lot better than THREE (I'd prefer TEN, but 5 or 6 will work fine I suppose)

The plan is to change it to 3,6,9,12,15,18,20 so they have realized the 6,12,18 is a bit limiting.

[danzig138]

In D&D getting someone tripped, feared or blind is something from surviving is almost an miracle

Only if someone is doing something very wrong.

[Indoran]

Avalon I have mastered 3.0 and 3.5 since they came out (2000 and 2003) They are not balanced systems.

Any argument regarding how 10 levels of Pre are ideal just because D&D 3.5 was balanced has a false premise. It's not balanced. Not even Core (v.g. polymorph any object and compare fighters vs wizards power)

spreading out Pre power is a good idea. but you should not resort to saying D&D is balanced, that system can and has been broken in SOOOO many ways (which is why I love it, as I like to DM for powergamers).

The thing with 10 tiers is that how much work it is for them to design that? and program and get rid of the bugs... I prefer 3 o 5 tiers but debugged.

Failed legend: regarding rangers having to choose a style. Do you really need to nerf them? how useful are pets? really? seriously? pets are not that useful (at least not in endgame) and Ranger is not the powerhouse some ppl say it was years ago.

Rangers get a bit of Flexibility thx to having both styles... I see nothing wrong with that... when playing you want to have fun and options allow you to do that

[Indoran]

/.../

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

EDIT: See a mockup/explanation on page 29 of this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=578

The Enhancement UI is ugly, and has lots of lag... is there a way to make it pretty and not so laggy? for example maybe have the client handle it until you hit accept?

Also I have seen angst regarding power levels... Dont be affraid of power gamers enjoying things, we like to understand systems and try to optimize with the options given. If anything hear us, dont fall prey to the "roleplayers" fears, think balance (of the classes) and fun. Some of us want flashy options (Read the book of nine swords!!! the D&D supplement... it's their "melee done right" book).

[Alavatar]

The new enhancements system will not be up for some time. We're planning on giving it an extended beta on Lamannia before going live with it - much longer than we traditionally have with our game systems.

Any chance of a timeline update?

Boogity-boo?!

Looking for any information at all. I would be happy with a "Our internal target is to put the Enhancement System on Lammania in Q1 2013" because that would be super.