Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Failedlegend]

Yeah, it's just that not all prestige classes in PnP translate well as PrE lines. Dragon Disciple might be one of those due to the physical changes one goes through such as wings. Doable, but trickier. It would also help avoid some of the power creep. Can you imagine a monk with some sorcerer splash getting a PrE which gave +8 strength along with everything else?

Although as a PrE line with the new upcoming system the stat bonuses could be done via a set of enhancements, each costing 1 point. So to get the full stat bonuses one would have to spend 10+ AP. Naturally stagger when the tiers of strength are available. Perhaps then have a set of exclusive enhancements to denote what type of dragon disciple you are. With the exclusive enhancement determining your elemental immunity (Resistance instead?) and breath weapon type. The claws could be done as an unarmed damage die increase for non-monks, and adding slashing to unarmed damage type.

This would make it so non-monks deal 1d4 blunt/slash unarmed while monks would do their normal damage but add slashing to damage types.

Thats why I think they should add in "Hybrid" PrEs to give a place to PrEs that don't fit with just one class..Eldritch Knight require levels in both an arcane and martial class...Sacred Fist requires Monk + Cleric...Arcane Trickster requires Wizard + Rogue Mech...????? requires Rogue Mech + Arty Master Maker (this just needs to be done)....Corrupt Avenger requires Palemaster+Divine Avenger....etc. It would add something unique to deep splashes which at this point is needed since the new system from what we know will heavily favor Single Class/Light Splash builds.

Here's a quick example using Swiftbalde (and using the Tempest Template)

The Requirements:

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble,etc.

[Red_Knight]

Good point. That's one thing this new UI might help with. The current system can't handle prestige that require multiple classes. Arcane Archer is suppose to require arcane casting ability as well as BAB and many feats that only fighters and rangers are likely to pick up.

[Failedlegend]

Good point. That's one thing this new UI might help with. The current system can't handle prestige that require multiple classes. Arcane Archer is suppose to require arcane casting ability as well as BAB and many feats that only fighters and rangers are likely to pick up.

Yeah the idea is definitely reliant on the new system whether they stick with the 3 Tree limit or go with the suggested "Access to all PrE Trees but can only choose 3 PrEs to get the free bonuses from" idea you would need 1 PrE from each class than the multiclass PrE so It would have its limitations (as well as the need to have a decent investment into both classes) but not so restricted that it loses it's multiclass nature (ie. you don't need 10 levels in each class)

[Aesop]

/signed

I would agree dragon disciple would make a nice 3rd PrE counting savant as 1 PrE.

I would also rather see eldritch knight over wild mage for wizards and arcane archer replaced with beast master for rangers leaving arcane archer a race only PrE.

Yeah I'm good with that too... particularly the bit about AA

Aesop

[Aesop]

One way I could see handling dragon disciple's class abilities would be to have active use abilities granted. The breath weapon could easily be done as different elemental attacks in the style of Scorch. The winged flight dragon disciples eventually get could be an active skill that grants flight for X seconds/minutes. Biggest hurdle I can see is the fact they eventually get draconic wings.

Other then that, the class's bonuses to AC and attributes are easy to do. Although it would be cool to have dragon disciple as an actual prestige class you have to level in, with prereqs to be able to take it of course.

Well remember that nothing has to be a perfect match.

The Breath Weapon could easily be a SLA.

Favored Souls are supposed to have wings as well and that got translated to a super jump really so that's no problem.

The natural weapons can be added in as improved unarmed strikes perhaps increasing the Damage Die by 1 step and maybe adding Slashing to the Damage Type... It would also be nice if Turbine would add the Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike Feats so that Monks aren't the only unarmed fighters.

The extra HP can be added in a similar way perhaps as you progress up the free Enhancements could include HP bumps.

The Dragon Apotheosis could be like the PM forms and have a visual effect but not be a permanent change. The Form could include most of the benefits that Dragon Apotheosis lists.

Additionally the dragon type chosen could give additional benefits to its corresponding element though likely not to the same degree as Elemental Savant. Perhaps even an aura effect that could be boosted up within the PrE line that could have Fear or Elemental Damage Ward.

Perhaps as the sorcerers are Dragon Blooded this could be a greater expression of that and grant more Spell Penetration and SP. There are lots of ways to go here.

They wouldn't be as pure damage as a Savant but they would have certain other bonuses that would compensate them in other areas. Bit more survivability, better DCs better spell pen and SP. Maybe even Elemental Absorption in Apotheosis form that heals when hit by the element.

Aesop

[DDOisFree]

I know that this thread is mainly about the UI, but one major problem I've always noticed with caster enhancements is how ridiculously expensive spell penetration and metamagic enhancements are for how little they do.

The spell penetration line in particular is too expensive for how little it does, +3 spell pen for 12 APs has never been worth it, and its never even enough for the only thing you need it against which is Drow.

Spell penetration enhancements should be changed to 4 tiers at the same cost as most other things - 1, 2, 3, and 4 AP per enhancement.

Focusing on metamagic enhancements does very little as well for the SP cost. However I don't think that these need to be any cheaper, just more worthwhile to take by maybe adding an extra perk for the most expensive 6 AP enhancement at the end of each one, e.g.

Empower III - Damage bonus from using empower spell is raised to 60%
Maximize III - Damage bonus from using maximize spell is raised to 120%
Heighten II - Raises your caster level by 1 while heighten spell is active.

Anyone spending 10-12 APs in these lines would then see something a little more worthwhile for how expensive they are.

[Monkey-Boy]

This all looks wonderful, any news as to when we'll see this on Lamania?

[Failedlegend]

This all looks wonderful, any news as to when we'll see this on Lamania?

I'm hoping soon so if they need to make any major changes based on feedback they have time to

[bigolbear]

just poping back to see whats been said

*nods in general aproval.


If we do go with multiclass prestiges - ie prestiges that require X lvls of class 1 and Y lvls of class 2 then perhaps warpreist and warchanter should be reclasified as that, or just offer further bonuses if you do multi. same goes for arcane archer, if you actualy do have arcane casting ability then it should be better than it is - whereas at the moment it is actualy worse which is bizare (cos the imbues cause lengthly cool downs)

The 'floating tree' multiclass prestiges id like to see are:

arcane archer (elf or helf or ranger or any full bab class + any casting class)
warpreist (any full bab class + cleric or druid or FVS)
warchanter (any full bab class + bard)
eldrich knight (any full bab class + wizard or sorc)
bladesinger (any full bab class + bard + elf)
runesmith (dwarf + any arcane)
dragon mark heir (any dragon mark, posibly one tree for each)
Juggernought (WF + any full bab class)

[Failedlegend]

just poping back to see whats been said

*nods in general aproval.


If we do go with multiclass prestiges - ie prestiges that require X lvls of class 1 and Y lvls of class 2 then perhaps warpreist and warchanter should be reclasified as that, or just offer further bonuses if you do multi. same goes for arcane archer, if you actualy do have arcane casting ability then it should be better than it is - whereas at the moment it is actualy worse which is bizare (cos the imbues cause lengthly cool downs)

The 'floating tree' multiclass prestiges id like to see are:

arcane archer (elf or helf or ranger or any full bab class + any casting class)
bladesinger (any full bab class + bard + elf)

These should be Elf Racial PrEs...also Bladesinger doesn't have anything to do with a Bard

warpreist (any full bab class + cleric or druid or FVS)
warchanter (any full bab class + bard)

These should remian class PrEs simply because it would destroy the majority of current Bard builds...also Multiclass PrEs should be used for PrEs that CAN'T fit into a single class warpriest/chanter fit just fine

eldrich knight (any full bab class + wizard or sorc)

No Argument here

runesmith (dwarf + any arcane)

Should be a Dwarven Racial PrE

dragon mark heir (any dragon mark, posibly one tree for each)

These are being worked into the Racial Trees...possibly with the DM lines being reduced to 1 Feat instead of 3

Juggernought (WF + any full bab class)
Should be a WF Racial PrE along with Reforged

Couple notes in orange (did some reordering)

[kingfisher]

the 3 tree limit is still a bad idea. just sayin.

[Chai]

just poping back to see whats been said

*nods in general aproval.


If we do go with multiclass prestiges - ie prestiges that require X lvls of class 1 and Y lvls of class 2 then perhaps warpreist and warchanter should be reclasified as that, or just offer further bonuses if you do multi. same goes for arcane archer, if you actualy do have arcane casting ability then it should be better than it is - whereas at the moment it is actualy worse which is bizare (cos the imbues cause lengthly cool downs)

The 'floating tree' multiclass prestiges id like to see are:

arcane archer (elf or helf or ranger or any full bab class + any casting class)
warpreist (any full bab class + cleric or druid or FVS)
warchanter (any full bab class + bard)
eldrich knight (any full bab class + wizard or sorc)
bladesinger (any full bab class + bard + elf)
runesmith (dwarf + any arcane)
dragon mark heir (any dragon mark, posibly one tree for each)
Juggernought (WF + any full bab class)

Why not just have feat and enhancement qualifications without telling people what classes they have to play?

Bladesinger should be something like BAB 6+ and ability to use level 1 arcane spells.
A level 9 rogue 1 wiz should be able to take that just like a level 6 fighter 1 sorc could.
A level 12 wizard could take their 13th level as bladesinger too.

This would not only be more akin to how D&D actually works, but would open the door to a plethora of building options that do not currently exist.

[Silverleafeon]

I noticed in a Dev post of the new content that Epic Destinies would be used:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=363362

Epic Destinies (account wide unlock) – 995 Turbine Points

For those familiar with 4th edition, this tells us a lot.

There will be a definate separation between heroic levels (including enhancement packages) and epic levels.

There will be much more mixing and matching going on for epic levels.
For example, there may be an Epic Destiny that amplifies arcane spells which any character that can cast arcane spells might be interested in.
For example, there may be an(or more) Epic Destiny(s) that increase(s) defensive melee abilities which any character that wants such could take, along with several that increase offensive melee abilities in various fashions
For example, there may be an Epic Destiny that increases necroitc spell casting, along with another that functions on elemental spell casting.
There will be quite a few of these in due time, and many of them have some very cool feature to them.
The class restrictions to enter should be liberal.
Kinda big cool extras, but you have to choose which one you want.

This also means that the 3rd edition rules of needing to have a pure class with 20 levels in it before applying epic class levels will not be used.
No heroic monk 2/heroic wizard 20/epic wizard 3 builds.
This is good in that unbalance multiclassing will not be possible in that manner;
and multiclass builds will be able to have epic abilities.

All in all, good news, that I am very pleased with.
Shows the Devs are thinking a lot about this.

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I would like to see feat requirements reduced and separated from enhancements anywhere possible.
(Which I think a Dev already stated long ago that was being considered.)

Dragonmarks only costing one feat instead of three. Halflings come to life!

Past life active feats costing a lot of action points instead, possibly a separate tree for this with past life bonus action points to spend on it. (I can dream anyway...)

Prestigue classes requiring less feats. (already definately underconsideration by Devs with certain features not unlocked without the proper feat)

Some less popular feats unlocked with action points (like that descriptive variations: Stealthy, Athletic, etc...)

[Red_Knight]

It will be interesting to see how epic levels are actually done though. I also have some concerns about just how powerful we'll get by the time we hit level 25. In PnP epic levels tend to get stupid powerful. And a few years ago the devs said that a DDO character by level 10 is the equivalent in power to a level 20 character due to the enhancement system.

So just how overpowered with the epic enhancements make us?

[saco]

Thats why I think they should add in "Hybrid" PrEs to give a place to PrEs that don't fit with just one class..Eldritch Knight require levels in both an arcane and martial class...Sacred Fist requires Monk + Cleric...Arcane Trickster requires Wizard + Rogue Mech...????? requires Rogue Mech + Arty Master Maker (this just needs to be done)....Corrupt Avenger requires Palemaster+Divine Avenger....etc. It would add something unique to deep splashes which at this point is needed since the new system from what we know will heavily favor Single Class/Light Splash builds.

Here's a quick example using Swiftbalde (and using the Tempest Template)

The Requirements:

Tier 1 Enhancements: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Enhancements: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Enhancements: Arcane3/Martial3 CL 9
Tier 4 Enhancements: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 12
Tier 5 Enhancements: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 15
Tier 6 Enhancements: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 20

Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble,etc.

Oooo I like and was gonna post something along the same lines. Hybrid PrEs would be real nice for those hybrid classes. Want my arcane trickster

[HatsuharuZ]

I would like to see feat requirements reduced and separated from enhancements anywhere possible.
(Which I think a Dev already stated long ago that was being considered.)

Dragonmarks only costing one feat instead of three. Halflings come to life!

Past life active feats costing a lot of action points instead, possibly a separate tree for this with past life bonus action points to spend on it. (I can dream anyway...)

Prestigue classes requiring less feats. (already definately underconsideration by Devs with certain features not unlocked without the proper feat)

Some less popular feats unlocked with action points (like that descriptive variations: Stealthy, Athletic, etc...)

These all sound heavenly, imo. But I have to wonder: Aren't most of the PrE feat requirements the ones that a player would take anyways, or somehow enhance the abilities of the toon that is taking the PrE? I can understand why a Frenzied Berserker wouldn't want to take plain ol' cleave, when he/she gets the supreme version, and I truly hate how rangers need *4* feats for all 3 tiers of Tempest, but what about the others?

[Red_Knight]

These all sound heavenly, imo. But I have to wonder: Aren't most of the PrE feat requirements the ones that a player would take anyways, or somehow enhance the abilities of the toon that is taking the PrE? I can understand why a Frenzied Berserker wouldn't want to take plain ol' cleave, when he/she gets the supreme version, and I truly hate how rangers need *4* feats for all 3 tiers of Tempest, but what about the others?

Some of the feat requirements are things that make me go 'huh'. Take shinto monk for example. Power attack I can sort of see, same for stunning fist. Both are feats a monk might take anyway. But the other feat requirement to take shinto tier 1 means you're likely taking a wasted feat. I know I for one only took diehard on my monk to qualify for the prestige. I much rather would have taken improved two weapon fighting or weapon finesse at those levels.

[Failedlegend]

Some of the feat requirements are things that make me go 'huh'. Take shinto monk for example. Power attack I can sort of see, same for stunning fist. Both are feats a monk might take anyway. But the other feat requirement to take shinto tier 1 means you're likely taking a wasted feat. I know I for one only took diehard on my monk to qualify for the prestige. I much rather would have taken improved two weapon fighting or weapon finesse at those levels.

I don't think it really matters as the Devs have said their reducing if not outright removing feat requirements for a PrE and making the only pre-req being class level and AP spent.

[Talias006]

Couple notes in orange (did some reordering)

Parts about Bladesinger...
I only recalled (at first) Races of Faerûn's version of that PrC, and it requires 3 ranks of Perform and ability to cast 1st level arcane spells.

So Bard is a good fit with just those requirements.
Of course, that version is also quite Feat heavy and includes one not on the list for DDO: Still Spell.

After reviewing other sources I have access to, Tome & Blood version is only slightly different in terms of requirements, needing 2 different versions of Perform at 3 ranks.
The iteration in Complete Warrior is even easier on requirements, needing Perform 2 in 2 types which translates well into 4 Perform.

And the point of all this rambling is that AFAIK, Perform is still a Bard only skill and untrainable until you have 1 level of it.

[HatsuharuZ]

I don't think it really matters as the Devs have said their reducing if not outright removing feat requirements for a PrE and making the only pre-req being class level and AP spent.

But all that could be subject to change, right? Furthermore, the devs are reading this thread and considering the views of the players. Since that is the case, the merits or removing and/or changing the requirements for PrEs is still significant.

My opinion is this: There should be feat requirements for the PrEs that have them. The feat requirements themselves, however, should be changed to feats that have something to do with the PrE, or the FEATS should be changed so that they are more useful to a build that would take that particular PrE. Tempest, in particular, needs work. I was really glad to see that example in which the tempest "tree" has haste boost. It's heavenly to have on my fighter toon.