Sorcerors and faster casting

[SupTyr]

This other thread about class balance got me thinking about the sorcerer...

IMO one benefits from three major advantages when playing a sorcerer (four if you count easy access to UMD):

1. Very high damage output through elemental spells
IMO this is what defines a sorcerer now since the introduction of savant prestige enhancements: Highest possible nuking power on both single target and multi target.

2. Bonus on maximum available Spell Points
Ok, in pnp sorcerers get more spells per rest and that translates to more SP in DDO. I won't argue about this one. (Although... the brightest flame burns quickest, he?)

3. Faster casting
This point is what puzzles me.

The sorcerer is more focused and can cast chosen spells more efficient. But does that mean he can cast them faster? Maybe I missed that point during my pnp time but as far as I know all spell casters cast spells at the same rate (one spell per round).

Faster casting animation means faster reaction which is a huge overall advantage when casting any spell. Less chance of being interrupted. Faster self-healing when playing a warforged. Better chance to hit mobs before they get behind you. ("You are not facing the ..." won't see that message as often when playing a sorcerer.)
Also isn't there a feat for boosting the actual casting speed?

Then add in the reduced cool down on all spells. This effectively makes the sorcerer also the 'king of instakilling'. When facing high-fort monsters even pale masters have to use energy drain before they can finger it. The sorcerer can do this faster and more often than a pale master. (Not talking about completionists here who can wail everything even high-fort+high-sr monsters)
Faster casting also allows the sorcerer to no-fail dance almost everything very quickly and more often than even a skilled archmage can.

I would understand if the sorcerer could *nuke* faster (in addition to harder and longer) than anyone else through reduced cooldowns on evocation spells. Would make sense - although the one that hits hardest doesn't need to hit fastest also. But tell me why should a savant cast energy drain faster (if at all) than a pale master?

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The only downside seems to be the limited selection of spells. But if you look at the level 9 spells for example there are not that many necessary spells. Energy drain, very useful every sorcerer will take this spell. Mass hold works for a sorcerer too on low-will monsters and grants 50% extra damage. Power word kill is obsolete (Energy drain and Finger of Death have same effect) Wail of the Banshee is obsolete too on a savant (maximized+empowered fireball or whatever has usually the same effect and works on undead too) Disjunction would be very usefull - theoretically - but has no use at all in DDO. Time Stop not available. Spell protection spell (forgot the name) not available.

Also keep in mind that through usage of UMD and scrolls the sorcerer is not really the most focused spell caster but rather the most versatile caster who can UMD lots of divine spells too. Not that important though because you can get clickies, pots or cookies for everything now.

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Oh and no I don't hate sorcerers.. Honestly I think with the addition of warforged to the game all the balance went to hell anyway... So don't take this to serious... Just wondering about this faster casting ability and since some officials asked for it I made a post.

[SupTyr]

Well actually my question is just:

Faster casting for sorcerers (and favored souls), is that a DDO house rule or is it based on some D&D standard?

I believe it dates back to the pre-savant era when sorcerers in DDO just had more SP and could cast a little faster which resulted in a slightly higher DPS number but I could be wrong here.

[MrCow]

Faster casting for sorcerers (and favored souls), is that a DDO house rule or is it based on some D&D standard?

Fast casting and reduced cooldowns of spells for sorcerers are a DDO house rule, one that was put in way back at the game's beginning to give an balancing incentive to playing a Sorcerer (the game was a vastly different beast back when the level cap was 10). No other class has fast casting.

When it came time to decide if Favored Souls should have fast casting and/or sorcerer-like spell points, it was decided to not give Favored Souls fast casting (or risk making the cleric vs. favored soul rift greater than it could have been during Module 9).

It should be noted that there is still a 1-second minimum cooldown timer between casting different spells, even if a sorcerer might cast Magic Missile in 0.6 seconds and a Wizard takes 1.1 seconds to cast it

[Gizeh]

Well actually my question is just:

Faster casting for sorcerers (and favored souls), is that a DDO house rule or is it based on some D&D standard?

Faster sorc casting does only exist in DDO. In pnp D&D a spell always has the same casting time regardless of who casts it, eg casting a fireball without applying any metamagic feats is always a standard action.

When applying metamagic feats, things work differently in D&D: Let's take a maximized fireball as example. A maximized spell takes up a spell slot 3 levels higher, so the wizard would have to prepare the spell as a level 6 spell. Casting time will remain a standard action. The sorcerer on the other hand doesn't prepare spells, so he has to apply the feat spontaneously, which prolongs casting time, so for him casting a maximized fireball becomes a full round action.

That doesn't mean wizards can cast metamagic'd spells in pnp D&D with a higher frequency than sorcerers, though. No character can cast more than one spell per round. They just have a move action available before or after casting, while all a sorcerer could do - besides casting his meta'd spell - would be taking a 5 ft step.


@ the OP:

I have to agree that there seems to be no logic in the casting speed difference between caster classes.

It would be far more logical if - regardless of the class - specializing in a spell school or in an element would increase the casting speed of the spells from that school / element.

[SupTyr]

Thank you, MrCow and Gizeh

Now that it's clear that it's a house rule, I have another question:

Do you think sorcerers still need the faster casting to stand up against archmages and pale masters? Or could that be considered an unfair advantage?

[Kmnh]

Thank you, MrCow and Gizeh

Now that it's clear that it's a house rule, I have another question:

Do you think sorcerers still need the faster casting to stand up against archmages and pale masters? Or could that be considered an unfair advantage?

They do. Without the faster casting sorcerers would need quicken always on to be playable, and many sorcerer builds can't afford the feat loss. Wizards get 5 bonus feats to play with.

[SupTyr]

They do. Without the faster casting sorcerers would need quicken always on to be playable, and many sorcerer builds can't afford the feat loss. Wizards get 5 bonus feats to play with.

But sorcerers get lots of extra sp which they could spent on quickened spells.. It's not that you select the feat and get quickened spells for free...

[morticianjohn]

But sorcerers get lots of extra sp which they could spent on quickened spells.. It's not that you select the feat and get quickened spells for free...

At the moment there are many viable options when playing arcanes. There is no great rift between sorc and wiz that you are perceiving. It is likely that your playstyle fits sorcs better but if they lose the faster casting they will certainly be worse than wizards.

[Aashrym]

But sorcerers get lots of extra sp which they could spent on quickened spells.. It's not that you select the feat and get quickened spells for free...

Casting speed and cooldown timers make a big difference. Something you might want to keep in mind is the typical palemaster can end up with about 3 DC's higher on those necro spells than sorcs with the wizard capstone INT bonus, lich form INT bonus, and actual +1DC lich form bonus. The actual spells start more effective in that sense.

In order to land them we are also looking at spell penetration in some cases. Wizards have bonus feats for spell penetration, school focus, quicken, and other meta's. Number of feats makes a huge difference, not just the SP.

Right now where sorcs shine is direct damage because of SP pool, faster caster, bonus caster levels with the PrE's, better direct damage SLA's, no need for spell penetration on most direct damage spells, bonus damage from curses, bonus damage with the capstone.

The spell lists are the same but they have a lot of differences in actual play. I wouldn't be looking at removing faster casting if that is what you are suggesting or asking. I like the differences the way they are.

[Jaid314]

sorcerers definitely need faster casting to keep up with wizards.

they're a lot weaker in PnP than wizards, truthfully, and the faster casting is to help keep them a reasonable choice (seriously, 5 bonus feats vs no bonus feats on a class that *really* benefits from feats?) especially in light of the fact that DDO wizards basically get spontaneous spellcasting.

of course, they're both still a lot stronger than melee in PnP, and right now DDO hasn't really given melees enough to compensate for that (at least, not without ridiculous amounts of equipment that the casters don't need), but it's starting to swing back towards melees (or at least, towards non-casters) lately... although we don't know yet if it will swing far enough to make things even.

[budalic]

I think you've gotten wiz/sorc comparision kinda wrong:

Sorc's bigger sp pool compensates for wizard ability to swap spells and have more spells.
Sorc's fast casting compensates for wiz 5 extra feats.

Everything else are just capstone/pre differences. So, I see no reason why sorc shouldn't get faster casting. Moreover, wizards probably get better bonuses, overall.

[Gurei]

I know this is a bit late on the draw, but fast casting is very relevant to pnp. In DDO, wizards can use a wider selection of spells NOT counting rests, negating the pnp benefit of sorcs using more spells per day.

I play 2.0 (some house rules its the best version imo) and we recently decided that clerics ought to get spontaneous casting so incredibly helpful spells like cure disease can actually be utilized without the high risk of a wasted memorized spell that day.

I have played a cleric since the change, and although there is no initiative benefits (i.e. faster casting), it FEELS faster due to the spontenaity. Sorc fast-casting is the closest relation to spontaneous casting which had been lost in the pnp -> mmorpg transition.

[Maegin]

I know this is a bit late on the draw, but fast casting is very relevant to pnp. In DDO, wizards can use a wider selection of spells NOT counting rests, negating the pnp benefit of sorcs using more spells per day.

I play 2.0 (some house rules its the best version imo) and we recently decided that clerics ought to get spontaneous casting so incredibly helpful spells like cure disease can actually be utilized without the high risk of a wasted memorized spell that day.

I have played a cleric since the change, and although there is no initiative benefits (i.e. faster casting), it FEELS faster due to the spontenaity. Sorc fast-casting is the closest relation to spontaneous casting which had been lost in the pnp -> mmorpg transition.

In later leves of PnP, the gap between the wizards versatility and the sorcs number of spells per day evens out. Getting upwards to 25-30+ spells being cast a day, kinda smears the line between balance, and then it all comes back down to feats, which the wizard still hold the leverage, BUT both still cast a ******** amount of spells per day. Usually, I never cast all my wizard spells, so the versatility wins out :P

Faster animation just says, "Hey, I'm a sorc, I'm supposed to cast more than the wizard, and to make it feel that way, Ill cast faster, since I have more mana (in this case, instead of more spells per day) to make it look like I have more casting that the wizard." and for DDO, it works perfect, if not better, since there really is only a few spells (save the ones that can be scrolled) that make a difference in the game, tbh.

Heh, DDO lost the ability to use spells out side of the box to win, and now its just different combos, to make the same results :/ DPS. If thats the case, faster casting animation is a blessing, and should stay. Wizards get !!!!!5 BONUS FEATS!!!!!, and (non store pot) !!!!!FREE!!!!! SPELL SWAPING, making build choices and game transitioning very very smooth, so wizards have it good too. It's balanced. Versatility and transtitioning vs consistancy and faster pacing. seems legit.

[SupTyr]

Ok you convinced me on the reduced cool downs and the bonus to max SP. Like in pnp the sorc would spam cast 6 fireballs in a row and the wizard would have only 3 level 3 spell slots with one fireball, one lightning and maybe a haste. So more rotation on the wizard side and more repeatable spells for the sorc.

Still don't understand why the sorcerer also get a faster casting animation...

[Aashrym]

Ok you convinced me on the reduced cool downs and the bonus to max SP. Like in pnp the sorc would spam cast 6 fireballs in a row and the wizard would have only 3 level 3 spell slots with one fireball, one lightning and maybe a haste. So more rotation on the wizard side and more repeatable spells for the sorc.

Still don't understand why the sorcerer also get a faster casting animation...

For balance reasons originally. For balance reasons now. More SP doesn't mean as much when there is a lot of SP available. Swapping spells is handy while leveling but becomes less useful later on. 5 bonus feats is a lot when it comes to spell casting.

The faster casting is entirely house-ruled so sorcs have another advantage and pretty much the opposite of what happens in PnP.

I think the differences between the classes as implemented is a success, tbh.

[sephiroth1084]

Still don't understand why the sorcerer also get a faster casting animation...

This is not pen and paper D&D.

Wizards get better spell selection and 5 bonus feats.
Sorcerers get more mana, which doesn't equal the power wizards get, so they got faster casting as well.

You may think that sorcs are the kings of insta-kills, but you'd be wrong. If anything, the two classes are basically even, where wizards have the better Spell Penetration and DCs, and sorcerers can get the spells out faster and more frequently. Before PrEs were introduced, and before the spell pass from last spring, sorcerers were regarded as being almost strictly better than wizards. Now, the two are fairly even, with wizards coming out ahead in most situations. Faster casting is fine.

[SupTyr]

Bonus feats... maybe these compensate the wizards for the insane high damage the sorcerers can dish out?

Dunno but my sorc single shots almost everything from waterworks to sands currently. That's what got me thinking btw.

Also: Maximize, Empower, Spellfocus, Toughness, What other feats would you like (need) on a sorc?

[sephiroth1084]

Bonus feats... maybe these compensate the wizards for the insane high damage the sorcerers can dish out?

Dunno but my sorc single shots almost everything from waterworks to sands currently. That's what got me thinking btw.

Why do new players who have seen less than 1/3 of the game always insist upon making sweeping judgments of character balance?

Also: Maximize, Empower, Spellfocus, Toughness, What other feats would you like (need) on a sorc?

Without faster casting, you would need Quicken eventually.

If you want to insta-kill or crowd control, you'll want Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.

If you want better saves, you may want a feat (wizards often pick up Insightful Reflexes, which is not only very excellent, but heads above the sorcerer's equivalent of Force of Personality).

Extend is useful if you're going to be buffing a lot.

Heighten is very important for CC and insta-kills.

Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in one of Necromancy or Enchantment are very strong if you want to CC or insta-kill.

Shield Mastery and Shield Proficiency are very useful on casters that can take some hits and want to be sturdier.

Arcane Initiate (wizard past life) for +1 to DCs and some free Magic Missiles.

Mental Toughness for more SP.

The fact is, human wizards still don't have enough feats for everything they'd want, and sorcerers are 5 feats behind wizards.

Wizards end up with +2 to their DCs on Necro or Enchantment spells usually before accounting for PrE abilities from their ability to afford Greater Spell Focus in one, or both, of those schools (+4 total for PMs and some AMs), and without counting the capstone (up to +5) or the wizard past life feat (up to +6) above what sorcerers can typically achieve. Wizards also likely have 4 more points of Spell Penetration, due to being able to afford the feats.

On top of that, wizards can carry the debuffs and niche spells needed to land their spells or to most efficiently approach certain challenges, while sorcerers have to rely on a more general set of spells, sometimes having to use more spells to complete a given task due to their having to rely on less efficient ones, which erodes some of the benefit of having around 30-50% more SP.

[Jaid314]

Bonus feats... maybe these compensate the wizards for the insane high damage the sorcerers can dish out?

Dunno but my sorc single shots almost everything from waterworks to sands currently. That's what got me thinking btw.

Also: Maximize, Empower, Spellfocus, Toughness, What other feats would you like (need) on a sorc?

well, that depends. do you like your spells to land? you'll want heighten if so. also spell pen and greater spell pen. that's already your 3 feats right there. quicken if you're a warforged.

of course, if you're fine with failing miserably to land spells on difficult targets (ie the only ones people care about), then feel free to leave those off of your feat list.

additionally, if you're going to even make it to within 3 points of a wizard's DC in spells that matter for DC (and believe me, +3 DC is WAY bigger of a difference than it sounds), you WILL need to take spell focus and greater spell focus, not just in either evocation or conjuration, but also in necromancy or enchantment.

furthermore, just because level 9 has relatively few useful spells (though your opinion of the value of certain spells is imo quite off) doesn't mean that limited spell selection is not a drawback. try picking your level 5 spells now that the DoTs are out, or level 4, or level 6, or level 2. a wizard can take spells that are sometimes amazing but sometimes not depending on the quest, a sorcerer has a much harder time fitting in a lot of situationally useful spells like knock, disintegrate, acid fog, solid fog, mind fog, mass suggestion, dimension door, enervate, etc.

[Saravis]

Bonus feats... maybe these compensate the wizards for the insane high damage the sorcerers can dish out?

Dunno but my sorc single shots almost everything from waterworks to sands currently.

Sorcerers dominate lower level content, but once you hit 17 or so wizards have a distinct advantage.

Also: Maximize, Empower, Spellfocus, Toughness, What other feats would you like (need) on a sorc?

heighten, spell pen, greater spell pen, various spell focuses (evo, conj, ench), various greater spell focuses (same)