Another possible AC-based DR idea

[Sidewaysgts86]

A very ironically timed thread just popped up that had a very similar idea to my own. As briefly mentioned, id actually written down the idea in a text document with the intent on posting it just days ago, but shied from posting it in concerns of the reaction it might see. Seeing the other thread made me think what the heck and decide to post it. Worst case ill just go into hiding for awhile until everyone forgets who I am . Again, the idea is very similar- but different enough with a few more cited details/ideas on how it could actually work, that i felt ok posting this all in its own thread.

This is largely an edited copy/paste of the original idea:



Hardly a topic that needs introduction. Just wanted to get some feedback on an idea in regards to a way to "possibly" improve the games current AC system.

I want to make it clear, this idea is NOT about addressing the to-hits certain mobs have (notably at end game) or about currently attainable/sustainable ac values, and is more about making ACs across all ranges more beneficial.

Would it be possible, or even viable, to give extra STACKING DR to a character based on AC? This concept would NOT stop a mob with +55 to hit from utterly smashing all over a character with "only" 50 ac, it DOES however give that character some benefit for HAVING that 50 ac in the first place, compared to his friend the sorcerer in pajamas with 12 ac.

There are a number of ways to "augment" and actually employ this idea as well- For example giving increased DR to heavier armor types. Ie, more DR to someone wearing heavy plates, than someone in lighter armors or even cloth. A change like this would (hopefully) give a reason for players to consider wearing their highest tier armors their classes proficiencies allow. This would give a barbarian a reason/benefit to wearing the medium armors theyre allowed to wear, or this gives some merits to the rare classes who are supposed to "benefit" from having heavy armors from the beginning (Paladins, Clerics, and of course Fighters), and may make them think twice about considering a lower armor class.

It could be something as simple as X-amount of DR for every Y amount of AC a character has, preferably with the benefits only counting PAST 10 ac- as this is what everyone starts with naturally anyways. Continuing with the armor-types being a factor, we could make it so that the y-amount is smaller for the heavier classes. Ie every 7 points over 10ac for heavy, 8 points over 10ac for medium, 9 points over 10ac for light, and 10 points over 10ac for cloth (These amounts are for hypothetical reasons to give an example, these numbers would need to be heavily tested/adjusted for actual practicality). Or on the flip side, just make every armor type get the same dr-break point for every x-amount of points over 10, but give more dr per break point to heavy, and dwindle down as you get to cloth. Again for arguments sake, say every 10 points over 10ac is the break point- wed give 4 dr to the heavy, 3dr to the medium, 2dr to the light, and 1dr to the cloth. Maybe even include new feats that increase the effects of these DR values (much like the revamp to the shield mastery feats).

Done properly such a change has in my opinion huge potential to lead to some very interesting builds that fit wanted roles WITHOUT being over powered (the key goal of such a proposal).

In many players opinions, the "problem" with current-game ac-tanks is that while attaining AC values that can make you nigh-untouchable IS achievable, it greatly reduces the practicality of the character in almost all but a few actual in-game situations. The general consensus I seem to cross is that while you can reach these ridiculous AC numbers required to be un-hittable, you generally cant maintain enough threat to actually hold the aggro of the mob(s) youre attacking because you simply cant put out enough damage while decked out for these values to keep anyones interest on you- and as such actual "maintainable" AC levels on charaters who intend to actually KEEP aggro is a fair bit less.

Now imagine a tank in your group with these changes in epic content, somewhere where "tanks" are currently generally considered relatively useless by most players I know of- largely due to the previous reasons; incredible mob to-hit values, where obtaining an AC values high enough to actually make worth-while gains in their miss-rate often means not having enough DPS in the first place anyways to actually keep mobs regularly swinging at you instead of your party members. Again while he wont necessarily have enough AC to be un-hittable if hes in a position to actually HOLD large amounts of aggro, he WOULD hopefully have enough AC (and by relation, DR) to mitigate desirable portions of the damage hed be taking (maybe lessen the woes of glancing blows?).

The trick in balancing this is, obviously, how "much" damage should be mitigated. It should/would hopefully be enough so that in epic the effect is "noticeable", but not so much that they become practically "un-killable" (especially when we factor in norma/hard/elite content for when youre NOT running in epic content- Having enough DR to parade through epic easily means you would be a god in lesser content. THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN). The idea is that you mitigate "enough" damage while actually *maintaining* aggro and mob-attention that you ease the burden on your healer(s) while allowing the teams REAL strikers to do their jobs, and kill things properly until they die from it. Then maybe kill them again.

Its obvious that players WANT viable "Defender" type build(s) in high-level and end-game content. We wouldnt see so many threads complaining about mob to-hits as we do if there WASNT a demand for builds that allowed for this play style. When you consider the amount of gear which "appears" to be defense minded, and all the defender enhancements we have, and the PREs (multiple) dedicated entirely to the concept of being a superior "tank", it seems silly that we dont currently have viable/desirable options to fulfill such roles. The BEST thing about DDO to me has -always- been the amount of customization allowed to characters. Alluding to, but never properly employing such a classic/desirable role is nothing short of disheartening.

I strongly encourage and look forward to constructive criticisms, inputs, feedback, and suggestions on this idea. Again the intent isnt to fix (if thats the appropriate word) the current to-hit system, but to reward/encourage characters to actually have SOME ac, to use those heavier armor feats, and hopefully- and more importantly, revive a "role" that players obviously desire. This suggestion may or may not be the proper answer for the game, some players might feel this could work, some might feel that such a change doesnt "fit" the setting of a DnD game. In the end however I simply hope we continue to give this enough attention to this that the Devs will actually consider listening to the community on what they want from the game they pay for. If were loud enough, theyll hopefully hear us eventually.

[Aesop]

Well the question becomes do you want more benefit for HIGH AC or for heavier armor?

Or do you want a combination.

Right now shield users can gain access to some damage mitigation with the use of the Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats. Effectively reducing incoming damage regardless of their actual AC. Same thing with Earth Stance Monks.


There have been a number of "complaints' that PJs are superior to armor because they are faster to change don't reduce Dex benefits, leave splash evasion options open, and lead to similar AC if built "right". This has lead to ideas such as Armor Mitigation.

Another issue that people bring up is that in Epic content no amount of AC means anything. This lead to the AC granting DR as a general concept. Again I'd personally go with a Mitigation Effect instead of a DR effect but conceptually there is something to be said for it. of course you have to define order of operation and what stacks where.

Lets for arguments sake say every 12 AC is DR1/- a 60AC would lead to DR 5/-
Assuming this type of DR stacks with other sources of DR and the subject in question has Stoneskin up.

Now they get hit for 45 damage thus taking 30

An AC tank of ungodly proportion may have a 100 AC their DR would be 8/-. Seems a bit low relative to the required gear of the 60 but still they probably get hit less often so maybe it rounds out.


Or perhaps a Mitigation effect similar to Shield Mitigation. This could be done a couple ways.

Shield Mitigation could be rolled into AC Mitigation with Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery improving the over all Mitigation, or Shield Mitigation could be a double dip as it were. If the later Shield Mitigation could be applied first and the AC Mitigation could follow it up. If rolled into one thing Shield Mastery (and Improved) would just be a large bump to the overall Mitigation.

Let's say 1% Mitigation per 5 AC. 50 AC would be 10% mitigation 100 AC would be 20% Mitigation. If shields operated as a separate mitigation and you were hit for 40 damage with a Shield Mitigation of 25% and an AC of 50 you'd take 27 damage before DR with an AC of 100 it would equal 24 damage before DR.

If it all rolled into one thing with Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery adding 5% each tier to overall AC Mitigation it would be 32 damage before DR (AC 50) or 28 damage (AC 100)

whoops forgot the Armor part. Individual types of armor may also impart bonuses like the heavier armors my grant a bonus to the mitigation.

Light may be 2%
Medium 5%
Heavy 10% even

well those are just a few thoughts that bounced around my noggin.

Aesop

[Rizzia]

Hmm I posted in another thread about armour changes helping to balance classes, and I allready disagree with what I put^^

whoops forgot the Armor part. Individual types of armor may also impart bonuses like the heavier armors my grant a bonus to the mitigation.

Light may be 2%
Medium 5%
Heavy 10% even

This would be much better, I'd personally tie it to the proficiencies tho, since turbine has imo made too many mithral plate armours (medium) for it to balance correctly. I'd go with 7/15/25(or 30)% since I dont see why monks should get more benefit as someone in full plate (and still have evasion).

[grodon9999]

No.

[Aesop]

Hmm I posted in another thread about armour changes helping to balance classes, and I allready disagree with what I put^^



This would be much better, I'd personally tie it to the proficiencies tho, since turbine has imo made too many mithral plate armours (medium) for it to balance correctly. I'd go with 7/15/25(or 30)% since I dont see why monks should get more benefit as someone in full plate (and still have evasion).

I figured base item ie Mithril Full Plate would would be Heavy Armor because Full Plate is Heavy Armor.

Adamantine though could give a bonus to mitigation beyond its basic DR as the little DR that is gives doesn't stack and isn't really a good selling point. maybe again based on base item. Light +1% Medium +3% and Heavy +5%.

Though then I'd want Shield Mastery (and Improved) to give a little more overall.

Aesop

[Sidewaysgts86]

No.

No what, exactly?

[Aesop]

No what, exactly?

Don't mind him he's just a little on the bitter side.

[MrWicae]

Love the idea for damage mitigation. Right now your all but penalized for wearing heavy armor. And Aesop I like your idea but I would do:

Light 5%
Med 10%
Heavy 15%

I am grateful for the tank love that Turbine has been giving but it is still not quite right due to the robe being king. This would make the world right again!

[somenewnoob]

I've got 2 toons wearing full plate, so I am 100% in favor of ANY type of AC or armor type based damage reduction. Or both!

[grodon9999]

Love the idea for damage mitigation. Right now your all but penalized for wearing heavy armor. And Aesop I like your idea but I would do:

Light 5%
Med 10%
Heavy 15%

I am grateful for the tank love that Turbine has been giving but it is still not quite right due to the robe being king. This would make the world right again!

No, it's a horrible idea. Somebody wearing master-work Plate armor should not have better damage mitigation than a person with 5 slots of gear devoted to armor class.

Just like a wooden tower shield having more shield mastery mitigation than an Epic Kundarak Warding or Light and Darkness. it's just plain silly.

D&D has a system for damage mitigation . . . it's call AC. The devs should use it. If some kind of silly % damage mitigation is going to be used it should be based on total AC number and not something as silly as just the armor type.

Or here's a novel idea . . . maybe make something miss once in a while

[MrWicae]

No, it's a horrible idea. Somebody wearing master-work Plate armor should not have better damage mitigation than a person with 5 slots of gear devoted to armor class.

D&D has a system for damage mitigation . . . it's call AC. The devs should use it.

But ac is broken as it is. Go put on a robe and let someone hit you with a bat. Then do the same thing in a suit of armor. Which one do you feel the the bat less? I would even go as far as saying that Robes boost evasion for the added mobility they have.

And the 5 slots devoted to AC also applies to HA users. I have one, so I know. So this argument is moot.

[grodon9999]

But ac is broken as it is. Go put on a robe and let someone hit you with a bat. Then do the same thing in a suit of armor. Which one do you feel the the bat less? I would even go as far as saying that Robes boost evasion for the added mobility they have.

it doesn't work like that. You're not wearing a robe, your wearing mutiple items that offer various types of protection. Bracers surround you with a forcefield that for all intents and purposes is armor.

AC is not as broken as people make it out to be and can be fixed with much simpler solutions than people would like to think. Expand the useful range by going to a 2-40 variable (or even 3-60) for mobs attacking us (there is NO REASON AT ALL for this to affect us attacking mobs) and lower the mob and boss to-hits in epic. Sirgod had a great post on this a few months back that would work just fine.

I wouldn't object to some kind of % mitigation based on the armor BONUS, but armor type just irks me as dumb.

[MrWicae]

it doesn't work like that. You're not wearing a robe, your wearing mutiple items that offer various types of protection. Bracers surround you with a forcefield that for all intents and purposes is armor.

AC is not as broken as people make it out to be and can be fixed with much simpler solutions than people would like to think.

If there is a "much simpler solutions than people would like to think." then please enlighten the rest of us.

[grodon9999]

If there is a "much simpler solutions than people would like to think." then please enlighten the rest of us.

I was too slow on the edit button . . .

[Aesop]

I wouldn't object to some kind of % mitigation based on the armor BONUS, but armor type just irks me as dumb.

I wouldn't object to something like that. Though honestly I would still like to see a little more benefit for the Medium and Heavy Armors. reason being is their inability to allow Evasion and their Dexterity limitations which in a Stat heavy game lead to much further expense of resources to grant similar benefits.

what about a % mitigation based on Armor AC with a small bonus for armors type would that be reasonable?

like 3 and 5% for medium and heavy armor respectively?

so an Bracers of Armor 8 would have an 8% mitigation, +5 Full Plate would have 18% mitigation.

Shield Mitigation could add to it as well with a similar modification. Tower Shields could have a couple maybe just 2% bonus and Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery could add some more bonuses.


So a tank like character with +5 Full Plate and a +5 Tower Shield with the Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats would have something like

18% for Armor
21% for Shield
39% total



Or would you prefer something like a portion of ALL AC benefits. Maybe 1/2 AC = Mitigation %... just as a simple formula. Shield Mastery could still grant a bonus to that even to benefit Shield Tanks a little more since they don't put out as much damage as some builds.


just a couple thoughts

Aesop

[grodon9999]

I wouldn't object to something like that. Though honestly I would still like to see a little more benefit for the Medium and Heavy Armors.

medium and heavy armors have a higher armor bonus. Light and bracers tap out at 8, Cavalry/DT plate hits 16.

[Aesop]

medium and heavy armors have a higher armor bonus. Light and bracers tap out at 8, Cavalry/DT plate hits 16.

That's true but they also don't allow for as much Dex Bonus to be added to AC and negate Evasion... I'm just not sure the pros beat out the Cons. Evasion potential is pretty bad arse. Is losing that only worth 6-8%. Isn't KDS 10 or so.

thoughts?

Aesop

[Expalphalog]

It's all in the build. Heavy armor builds (Fighter, Barbarian, et al) are able to spend more points on Con at creation and therefore have higher HP. Dex builds should get hit less often, but when they do it is a more painful experience. Con builds get hit a lot more, but can handle it.

To go back to MrWicae's bat analogy: The guy in the full plate is going to be laughing for the first few minutes while you whale on him, but eventually all the vibrations and ringing are going to give him a migraine. Meanwhile, the guy in the robe is going to dodge or roll with most of your blows, but once you do finally do connect solidly, bones will shatter.


From what I can tell from my admittedly limited experience here, AC works - it's Hitting that's broken.

[grodon9999]

That's true but they also don't allow for as much Dex Bonus to be added to AC and negate Evasion... I'm just not sure the pros beat out the Cons. Evasion potential is pretty bad arse. Is losing that only worth 6-8%. Isn't KDS 10 or so.

thoughts?

Aesop

You give up DPS splashing for evasion, that's the primary tradeoff.

[Aesop]

You give up DPS splashing for evasion, that's the primary tradeoff.

? Why do you say that? What build are we talking about? Evasion Splashes have decent DPS potential on average.

Aesop