Grazing hits and how to use to balance PJ's versus armor

[Aesop]

Rude maybe, without cause I disagree.

Just because something was implemented by the devs doesn't mean it has merit. half of this game's mechanics are ad-hoc thrown together at the last minute and un-tested.

You offered a disagreement to an alternative I offered. I countered and you got huffy without reading the post. I can tell because as I hit post I jumped back to the suggestion page and your counter was already up. 5 sec is not enough time to weigh any argument.

Your idea was flawed in regards to its progressive outcome. Instead of wanting to discuss how to overcome that flaw you just want someone to agree with you. Sorry that isn't what happened.

Public forums are full of bad ideas. Some try to improve or offer discussion on the idea others tell people to stop posting in "their" thread.

[Aesop]

I disagree that a stance should be required for shield mastery to work. Any fighter or pally without a tank pre should still be able to use a shield effectively with the shield mastery feats. And Defensive Fighting is not an option.

The biggest winners are indeed the casters though. To fix that I'd suggest following changes:

• Shield blocking with a shield you are not proficient with nullifies its DR.
  If a caster or divine wants tower shield proficiency he'd have to splash giving up his capstone, or spend another feat for it.
• All damage dealt by active spells at that time (DoTs, FW, clouds, aura's, ...) is negated when actively shield blocking.
  So a caster or divine will have to choose between dealing damage or protecting himself, just like melees have to.

That way the shield mastery feats still have merit for casters, to provide the passive damage mitigation by carrying one, but they lose the unfair advantage of shield blocking with it while dealing significant dps.

I'm not sure how to deal with Casters gain more benefit that tanks with shields overall... maybe I'll think of something later. However, I'm not fond of the damage negation in the second bullet point. It just seems weird. If a fighter had a DoT would he lose it if he blocked... (Slicing Blow isn't great but it is a DoT) What about damage Guard Effects would those be canceled out too?

Aesop

[Ravoc-DDO]

I'm not sure how to deal with Casters gain more benefit that tanks with shields overall... maybe I'll think of something later. However, I'm not fond of the damage negation in the second bullet point. It just seems weird. If a fighter had a DoT would he lose it if he blocked... (Slicing Blow isn't great but it is a DoT) What about damage Guard Effects would those be canceled out too?

Aesop

No, as they aren't cast spells.

[Aesop]

No, as they aren't cast spells.

What about Fire Shield?

Just trying to get a handle on the idea

[Ravoc-DDO]

I guess with cast spells I meant spells that deal damage actively towards mobs.

Fire shield doesn't deal damage to mobs on its own, only when they hit you. It should be considered as a guard and remain working.

[voodoogroves]

The traditional d&d dots are not the same issue as the level five wonders are ... Those things cause so many problems. Can we just remove them already? put in a single strike ray or other and call them done

[Aesop]

I guess with cast spells I meant spells that deal damage actively towards mobs.

Fire shield doesn't deal damage to mobs on its own, only when they hit you. It should be considered as a guard and remain working.

OK still not sure I'm fond of the negation. It just sits wrong with me... but I'll sit on that til I have a better idea of what I don't like about it.

The traditional d&d dots are not the same issue as the level five wonders are ... Those things cause so many problems. Can we just remove them already? put in a single strike ray or other and call them done

I somehow doubt they are going to leave... but I would not doubt that some sort of nerf could happen. Do you think there is a balance point to the damage that could be reached? what about a Fort Save to reduce the damage by half or something?

Aesop

[Captain_Wizbang]

I'm not patient enough for the devs to ask for input
Grazes will hurt a pajama monkey a lot more than a guy in armor, that’s the balancing mechanism.

Your concept is ok, I felt there were some personal reasons for how you arrived at the numbers imo.

But I'd place a lot further down the list of things to do.

Good Idea Grodon.

[Aesop]

The traditional d&d dots are not the same issue as the level five wonders are ... Those things cause so many problems. Can we just remove them already? put in a single strike ray or other and call them done

hey Voodoo mind if we move this segue to a new thread... I just had a thought. Ravoc may want to look in on it too.

Aesop

[smatt]

I'm not patient enough for the devs to ask for input on the AC thing . . . let me start with this idea.

People have differing opinions on grazing hits, I personally don’t mind them and thing it as a system can be used to balance certain AC situations.

Armor versus pajamas is one . . . what’s the real incentive to use armor and shield when you can splash monk and get similar AC yet do more damage and (I think) put out more threat? Shield blocking DR is wonderful but you need to generate threat in order to keep agro. The threat advantages of wearing a shield is artificial but needs to be there, but it needs more of a defensive bonus.

Enter Shield Mastery. It was a good idea . . . giving shields a distinct advantage over pajamas but has had some spill-over effects. I hope and pray that it was never the intention of the devs that SHIELD MASTERY WOULD GIVE FAR GREATER OF AN ADVANTAGE TO CASTERS THAN IT DOES TO MELEES. Completely divorcing shield defense from AC is a bad it for that above obnoxious reason. I don’t think the devs intended on that being used by casters to become even more over-powered, I’m going to assume their intention (which backfired) was for shield tanks to be in vogue. In order for that to happen AC needs to be the key to defense with shields benefiting this.

To balance this shield mastery should REQUIRE and ACTIVE defensive stance be enable in order for it to work. Combat Expertise of Defensive Fighting should count for this purpose.

So . . . where was I . . . oh yeah . .. . grazing hits. Getting hit on a 13 for some damage in Elite Content (alledly in epics as well) is the balancing mechanism that some D&D purists don’t like but I don’t mind. I think it makes a little sense, I rolled with a punch, avoided most of the damage but still got hit. Use this mechanic, leave it in the game, but lower the to-hits in higher level (epic) content so a target’s AC is still relevant.

So how does this work regarding Armor and board tanks versus Pajama guys? Have your actual ARMOR (maybe natural too, not so sure about that) bonus apply as DR on a grazing hit BEFORE any other damage mitigation is accounted for. If you have a shield (I guess the wands and Tempest will need to be included) equipped that gets added in as well.

A Pajama monkey will have 8 armor bonus max plus 4 from a shield wand, giving him 12 DR that could apply to grazes. An Armor tank would have about 25+ DR plus their normal static DR and then shield mastery to protect them from grazes.

Grazes will hurt a pajama monkey a lot more than a guy in armor, that’s the balancing mechanism.

Not bad.... You know from our past discussions that I have "Issues" with pajama monkeys as you call them. I do beleive grazing hits were instituted to address this very issue. It's jstu that they never finished where they started, By adding more static DR to shields and armor in an ascending fashion. Each type of build SHOULD have it's advantages and disadvatages, and not just in 5 or 6 raids. Again, the biggest mistake they've made in this game or at least in the top 10 list were the Icy's.... That and little for thought put into the heavy front loading of the classes such as monk. But that's all another story

I like what you've put out there on this though....

[maddmatt70]

Oh come off it man. The devs keep boosting shields every other mod. Some of us like the idea of a finesse based twf or unarmed character that are defensive in nature and if you do not well that is your business. We actually find those kind of characters fun. The devs give you mournlands and higher ac shields and better stalwart and DOS stances and the list goes on and on.

It really is balanced at this point other then the fact ac is not effective in the vast majority of content. I have no dr on my ac rogue twf and she can only tank LOB on norm and hard really whereas you shield ac character can tank it on any difficulty. You can also tank VOD and TOD just as effectively as I can. On most other content you just put away your shield and swing for more damage then I do because you have higher strength then I do whereas I am dex based. If that is not balanced I do not know what is.

[Aesop]

Oh come off it man. The devs keep boosting shields every other mod. Some of us like the idea of a finesse based twf or unarmed character that are defensive in nature and if you do not well that is your business. We actually find those kind of characters fun. The devs give you mournlands and higher ac shields and better stalwart and DOS stances and the list goes on and on.

It really is balanced at this point other then the fact ac is not effective in the vast majority of content. I have no dr on my ac rogue twf and she can only tank LOB on norm and hard really whereas you shield ac character can tank it on any difficulty. You can also tank VOD and TOD just as effectively as I can. On most other content you just put away your shield and swing for more damage then I do because you have higher strength then I do whereas I am dex based. If that is not balanced I do not know what is.

You just gave a bunch of reasons why it isn't balanced... However your reasons are mostly an imbalance against the Finesse characters ... whom need help anyway. So really there is needed balance an many fronts. or at least a little help

[maddmatt70]

You just gave a bunch of reasons why it isn't balanced... However your reasons are mostly an imbalance against the Finesse characters ... whom need help anyway. So really there is needed balance an many fronts. or at least a little help

Touche. Weapon finesse dual wielders and unarmed need a bump your right..

[Aesop]

Touche. Weapon finesse dual wielders and unarmed need a bump your right..

Do unarmed really need a bump? I didn't think they were that bad off. Am I missing something? Wait do you mean Unarmed FINESSE... then yeah I suppose I can see that too.


I'd also say Shield and Heavy Armor guys are limited on build choices to be effective and that isn't really a good place to be at.

[grodon9999]

Oh come off it man. The devs keep boosting shields every other mod. Some of us like the idea of a finesse based twf or unarmed character that are defensive in nature and if you do not well that is your business. We actually find those kind of characters fun. The devs give you mournlands and higher ac shields and better stalwart and DOS stances and the list goes on and on.

It really is balanced at this point other then the fact ac is not effective in the vast majority of content. I have no dr on my ac rogue twf and she can only tank LOB on norm and hard really whereas you shield ac character can tank it on any difficulty. You can also tank VOD and TOD just as effectively as I can. On most other content you just put away your shield and swing for more damage then I do because you have higher strength then I do whereas I am dex based. If that is not balanced I do not know what is.

Um . . . my stalwart is a TWFing 95 AC "Pajama Monkey." I don't have a single toon who uses a shield.

How am I trying to skew this to my interests?

[noinfo]

I'm not patient enough for the devs to ask for input on the AC thing . . . let me start with this idea.

People have differing opinions on grazing hits, I personally don’t mind them and thing it as a system can be used to balance certain AC situations.

Armor versus pajamas is one . . . what’s the real incentive to use armor and shield when you can splash monk and get similar AC yet do more damage and (I think) put out more threat? Shield blocking DR is wonderful but you need to generate threat in order to keep agro. The threat advantages of wearing a shield is artificial but needs to be there, but it needs more of a defensive bonus.

Enter Shield Mastery. It was a good idea . . . giving shields a distinct advantage over pajamas but has had some spill-over effects. I hope and pray that it was never the intention of the devs that SHIELD MASTERY WOULD GIVE FAR GREATER OF AN ADVANTAGE TO CASTERS THAN IT DOES TO MELEES. Completely divorcing shield defense from AC is a bad it for that above obnoxious reason. I don’t think the devs intended on that being used by casters to become even more over-powered, I’m going to assume their intention (which backfired) was for shield tanks to be in vogue. In order for that to happen AC needs to be the key to defense with shields benefiting this.

To balance this shield mastery should REQUIRE and ACTIVE defensive stance be enable in order for it to work. Combat Expertise of Defensive Fighting should count for this purpose.

So . . . where was I . . . oh yeah . .. . grazing hits. Getting hit on a 13 for some damage in Elite Content (alledly in epics as well) is the balancing mechanism that some D&D purists don’t like but I don’t mind. I think it makes a little sense, I rolled with a punch, avoided most of the damage but still got hit. Use this mechanic, leave it in the game, but lower the to-hits in higher level (epic) content so a target’s AC is still relevant.

So how does this work regarding Armor and board tanks versus Pajama guys? Have your actual ARMOR (maybe natural too, not so sure about that) bonus apply as DR on a grazing hit BEFORE any other damage mitigation is accounted for. If you have a shield (I guess the wands and Tempest will need to be included) equipped that gets added in as well.

A Pajama monkey will have 8 armor bonus max plus 4 from a shield wand, giving him 12 DR that could apply to grazes. An Armor tank would have about 25+ DR plus their normal static DR and then shield mastery to protect them from grazes.

Grazes will hurt a pajama monkey a lot more than a guy in armor, that’s the balancing mechanism.

Say it with me Grodon999 NO to grazing hits. I will believe it is worthwhile when barb and kensai to hits are ballaced by a graze on a 2-9.

If they want to have grazing hits then apply it based on difficulty and only for named.
Normal 19 for orange red and purple
Hard 18+ for purple and red 19 for orange
Elite 15+ for purple 18 for red 17 for orange
Epic 13+ for purple 15 for red 18 for orange

Trash are trash and should not get them on any difficulty, they can be wailed why should they get to graze on a 13?

There is already ballance between S/B and 2WF and I IMO if I am tanking I much prefer my S/B even though it has less gear than my other 2wf's. Shield mastery is just that good, their hate generation is also excellent and most times, use a bastard sword like efang and your damage while not kensai level does not suck horribly and when not tanking pull out a full dps weapon such as an eSOS or even the axe from cannith.

I know we have danced round the grazing hit issue before and I will not (or at least try) to derail your thread in that area (can't wait for the dev thread)

I do agree with your requirement for defensive stance for shield mastery feat though, but I would include DOS and SD stances as those even if they are in PA mode.

[noinfo]

Um . . . my stalwart is a TWFing 95 AC "Pajama Monkey." I don't have a single toon who uses a shield.

How am I trying to skew this to my interests?

I don't think you are, but I think you should try a S/B build to see how different they are to tank with and how powerful they are at tanking now.

[donfilibuster]

I believe grazing hits were invented so you could get some damage no matter your defenses so yeah, there needs to be a defense for those too, expensive or not.
Defense modes look odd on a MMO that focus on offense so much but D&D is strongly built around having defenses for everything.
Grazing hits shouldn't be unstoppable, let alone go inventing new mechanics to bypass things on the first place.

[Aesop]

I believe grazing hits were invented so you could get some damage no matter your defenses so yeah, there needs to be a defense for those too, expensive or not.
Defense modes look odd on a MMO that focus on offense so much but D&D is strongly built around having defenses for everything.
Grazing hits shouldn't be unstoppable, let alone go inventing new mechanics to bypass things on the first place.

I don't think Grazing Hits would be as annoying for people if there weren't Grazing Hits that did 40 damage. I mean when I think of a Graze I think it tipped the edge of someones shoulder. 40 damage is the DDO equivalent to a light hit to the groin... which according to every guy I've ever talked to about such things are a myth.

Its like saying, "yeah you're lucky he missed your head with that flanged mace... too bad he hit ya in the nuts on the back swing though"

Its just a little on the crazy side of things. 8d6 for a GRAZE? Are you bleedin' kidding me.

A graze should be set at 1/10 the damage of a full hit... round UP if need be but there is no way that a Graze should do 40+ damage.

Aesop

[grodon9999]

Getting hit for 40 hurts less than 130, which is about what Elite Sulu/Horoth will nail you for on the high-side. T