Grazing hits and how to use to balance PJ's versus armor

[grodon9999]

I'm not patient enough for the devs to ask for input on the AC thing . . . let me start with this idea.

People have differing opinions on grazing hits, I personally don’t mind them and thing it as a system can be used to balance certain AC situations.

Armor versus pajamas is one . . . what’s the real incentive to use armor and shield when you can splash monk and get similar AC yet do more damage and (I think) put out more threat? Shield blocking DR is wonderful but you need to generate threat in order to keep agro. The threat advantages of wearing a shield is artificial but needs to be there, but it needs more of a defensive bonus.

Enter Shield Mastery. It was a good idea . . . giving shields a distinct advantage over pajamas but has had some spill-over effects. I hope and pray that it was never the intention of the devs that SHIELD MASTERY WOULD GIVE FAR GREATER OF AN ADVANTAGE TO CASTERS THAN IT DOES TO MELEES. Completely divorcing shield defense from AC is a bad it for that above obnoxious reason. I don’t think the devs intended on that being used by casters to become even more over-powered, I’m going to assume their intention (which backfired) was for shield tanks to be in vogue. In order for that to happen AC needs to be the key to defense with shields benefiting this.

To balance this shield mastery should REQUIRE and ACTIVE defensive stance be enable in order for it to work. Combat Expertise of Defensive Fighting should count for this purpose.

So . . . where was I . . . oh yeah . .. . grazing hits. Getting hit on a 13 for some damage in Elite Content (alledly in epics as well) is the balancing mechanism that some D&D purists don’t like but I don’t mind. I think it makes a little sense, I rolled with a punch, avoided most of the damage but still got hit. Use this mechanic, leave it in the game, but lower the to-hits in higher level (epic) content so a target’s AC is still relevant.

So how does this work regarding Armor and board tanks versus Pajama guys? Have your actual ARMOR (maybe natural too, not so sure about that) bonus apply as DR on a grazing hit BEFORE any other damage mitigation is accounted for. If you have a shield (I guess the wands and Tempest will need to be included) equipped that gets added in as well.

A Pajama monkey will have 8 armor bonus max plus 4 from a shield wand, giving him 12 DR that could apply to grazes. An Armor tank would have about 25+ DR plus their normal static DR and then shield mastery to protect them from grazes.

Grazes will hurt a pajama monkey a lot more than a guy in armor, that’s the balancing mechanism.

[Aesop]

conceptually it makes sense to me... I'm not sure about the numbers though. How much are grazing hits doing these days?


Aesop

[kafrielveddicus]

Just get rid of grazing hits altogether they are a waist of server resources!

[grodon9999]

conceptually it makes sense to me... I'm not sure about the numbers though. How much are grazing hits doing these days?


Aesop

It depends on who you're fighting. Elite Horoth or sulu over 40, I'll pay attention next time.

I've never actually been grazed in an epic so I couldn't tell you.

[voodoogroves]

They'd need to make it so you can cast in a defensive stance - even at a cost.

Fighting defensively while you cast ray spells is a very common PNP tactic ... but something that doesn't translate in DDO. Rays don't have an attack roll in DDO, etc. etc. since everything is all active.

I think the analog is "when shield blocking" for DDO ... and I'd be ok w/ Shield Mastery working then too. The fact that it's just "there" when you're jogging through the forest is the real abuse point.

[grodon9999]

I think the analog is "when shield blocking" for DDO ... and I'd be ok w/ Shield Mastery working then too. The fact that it's just "there" when you're jogging through the forest is the real abuse point.

I can live with that, blocking OR in a defensive stance.

[Aeolwind]

So wait, casters are actually using 3 feats on Shield use these days? Yes, I live in a hole.

Easier answer would be that you just don't get glancing blows in a robe, you get regular hits.

[voodoogroves]

So wait, casters are actually using 3 feats on Shield use these days? Yes, I live in a hole.

One or two, yes.

[sweez]

So wait, casters are actually using 3 feats on Shield use these days? Yes, I live in a hole.

Since it's very front-loaded, shield mastery without imp shield mastery works just fine, and is easy to fit in on a wizard (2 feats - shield proficiency and mastery, easy to swap in instead of spell pen feats once you have enough past lives and/or gear), and even easier on any divine (just 1 feat since divines get shield prof).

[Aesop]

It depends on who you're fighting. Elite Horoth or sulu over 40, I'll pay attention next time.

I've never actually been grazed in an epic so I couldn't tell you.

Then I'd say go with a Mitigation effect instead of straight Reduction.

% wise that is

Aesop

[NytCrawlr]

Definitely liking the overall idea so far. Would allow me to rethink my caster's plans too if they went this route.

[Thlargir]

Just get rid of grazing hits altogether they are a waist of server resources!

If they are the waist of server resources what are the bust and hip? Perhaps there is more room to save there?

Not that I would ever want to!

[Riggs]

Nice overall.

Reducing the to hit bonus on epics so AC actually matters of course is a must if it is ever going to be considered balanced.

Grazing hits on a 13 is also just silly and overpowered.

What it should be;

As now, a 20 always hits for normal damage no matter ac.
on Normal - a 19 is a grazing hit for half damage, minus the armor DR as above.
on Hard - 18-19 grazing hit.
Elite - 17-19.
Epic - 16-19.

A 20% chance of a grazing hit is still a lot considering how fast attacks happen in DDO, and quite frankly higher than really necessary - ex I never hear of any AC tanks solo scroll farming in epics - only casters - so it clearly would not unbalance a game that is already not balanced towards ac builds as it is.

Personally, grazing hits should still be tied to AC - you MISS by 5, you do 1/2 damage, you miss by 10, you do 1/4 damage (or 10 = 1/2, 20 = 1/4).

[Talias006]

If they are the waist of server resources what are the bust and hip? Perhaps there is more room to save there?

Not that I would ever want to!

It's very hard to reduce the hips, they're kinda bony that way.
I have to invoke my right to remain silent on the waist and bust, though.
Those are comments I reserve for work.

[grodon9999]

Nice overall.

Reducing the to hit bonus on epics so AC actually matters of course is a must if it is ever going to be considered balanced.

Grazing hits on a 13 is also just silly and overpowered.

What it should be;

As now, a 20 always hits for normal damage no matter ac.
on Normal - a 19 is a grazing hit for half damage, minus the armor DR as above.
on Hard - 18-19 grazing hit.
Elite - 17-19.
Epic - 16-19.

A 20% chance of a grazing hit is still a lot considering how fast attacks happen in DDO, and quite frankly higher than really necessary - ex I never hear of any AC tanks solo scroll farming in epics - only casters - so it clearly would not unbalance a game that is already not balanced towards ac builds as it is.

Personally, grazing hits should still be tied to AC - you MISS by 5, you do 1/2 damage, you miss by 10, you do 1/4 damage (or 10 = 1/2, 20 = 1/4).

We get grazed now on 13s in elite content, I believe the number is the same now in epic.

[Aesop]

What if we expanded out the current Shield Mitigation and made an Armor Mitigation


Cloth 0%
Light 5%
Medium 10%
Heavy 15%

Adamantine Versions of the above +5%
Mithril counts as the base type (ie Mithril Full Plate counts as Heavy)


New Feat: Armor Specialization (it exists in the PH2 granting DR 2/- with said armor)
Here it would improve Armor Mitigation by 5% (including Cloth if so desired)

Magic and stuff doesn't have to count but if Turbine really wants it too or needs it to there are ways to make it work. Bonuses of 1-5 could count as light 6-10 as medium 11+ as heavy... IF that's what they want to do... I don't see it as necessary.

I think my hesitation on having a straight reduction comes in the middle levels where you have +5 Full Plate and Shields so you are pretty much reducing those much lower Grazing Hits much further relatively. It just seems off and could lead to some strange issues... A Mitigation effect even if the above only applied to Grazing Hits ... at which point I'd suggest increasing them a touch more... possibly doubling the numbers.


So with Armor Mitigation as Grazing Hit reduction only

Cloth 0%
Light 10%
Medium 20%
Heavy 30%

Adamantine +10%

Feat: Armor Specialization +10% (and the DR 2/- which stacks with Adamantine)

Warforged Composite 10%
Mithril Body 20%
Adamantine Body 40%

Improved Damage Reduction +5% (can be taken multiple times remember)



well just a though process on my end. It just seems a Mitigation effect would be a more balanced solution as it takes into account progression a little more. Not perfectly but there are other mitigating factors including Shield Mitigation which would apply as well.

Aesop

[grodon9999]

What if we expanded out the current Shield Mitigation and made an Armor Mitigation

Aesop

No.

The current shield mastery setup is such bad game design it's not funny. I want to seen that done away with completely, not expanded on.

A Wooden Tower shield giving more damage mitigation than an Epic Warding Shield is bad game design.

A set of masterwork plate giving more damage mitigation than a monk with 5 items slot towards AC is bad game design.

D&D has a system for damage mitigation, it's called AC. All this other "MMO" stuff is pure garbage and needs to be thrown out.

[Aesop]

No.

The current shield mastery setup is such bad game design it's not funny. I want to seen that done away with completely, not expanded on.

A Wooden Tower shield giving more damage mitigation than an Epic Warding Shield is bad game design.

A set of masterwork plate giving more damage mitigation than a monk with 5 items slot towards AC is bad game design.

D&D has a system for damage mitigation, it's called AC. All this other "MMO" stuff is pure garbage and needs to be thrown out.

AC doesn't even work in PnP nevermind here in DDO.

DR isn't a reasonable reducer in a setting where the "Grazing Hit" is 40 damage

Not saying the current mitigation set up is perfect but it does have some ground to stand on. Your complaint is that it doesn't take the magic into consideration.

Well then offer a suggestion for a change.

here's a start

With Proficiency a Shield grants a% mitigation equal to its AC value

Masterwork Wooden Tower Shield 4% Mitigation
+6 Heavy Shield 8% Mitigation

Shield Mastery improves this my 5%
Improved Shield Mastery improves this by 10%

that +6 Heavy Shield rounds out at 23% the Masterwork Tower Shield at 19%

not magicy enough?

have the Enhancement Bonus count double and reduce Improved Shield Mastery down to 5%

Masterwork Tower Shield 4%
with Improved Shield Mastery 14%
+6 Heavy Shield 14%
Improved Shield Mastery 24%

better?

The Defender PrEs can add a couple % per tier


Armor Mitigation at that point could be similar Masterwork Full Plate could be 8% +5 Full Plate would be 18% and the Reinforced or whatever Epic +7 God-like Plate base armor AC 10 (total 17) would be 24% while +8 Armor Bracers are only 8%

Alternately as some people want AC to mitigate in general, .2% per AC point (1% per 5AC) with actual armor providing a bonus based on type +1% for light +3% for medium and +6% for heavy. So that a 100AC Heavy Armor wearing tank would have an AC mitigation of 26%.

The only question there is would the Shield Mitigation be added to that in the double dip sense or would it be calculated separately or some other variation.

Anyway Shield Mitigation isn't a bad idea maybe the implementation could use work but it is definitely a better alternative to the lack luster way shields were before. The change to Improved Shield Bash also helps.

Aesop

[grodon9999]

That is just rude without cause.

The idea apparently had merit to the Devs as they implemented a variation on the idea I posted before you even started playing.

Rude maybe, without cause I disagree.

Just because something was implemented by the devs doesn't mean it has merit. half of this game's mechanics are ad-hoc thrown together at the last minute and un-tested. Divorce defense from the actual AC number is a terrible idea, no matter who's idea it was.

[Ravoc-DDO]

I disagree that a stance should be required for shield mastery to work. Any fighter or pally without a tank pre should still be able to use a shield effectively with the shield mastery feats. And Defensive Fighting is not an option.

The biggest winners are indeed the casters though. To fix that I'd suggest following changes:

• Shield blocking with a shield you are not proficient with nullifies its DR.
  If a caster or divine wants tower shield proficiency he'd have to splash giving up his capstone, or spend another feat for it.
• All damage dealt by active spells at that time (DoTs, FW, clouds, aura's, ...) is negated when actively shield blocking.
  So a caster or divine will have to choose between dealing damage or protecting himself, just like melees have to.

That way the shield mastery feats still have merit for casters, to provide the passive damage mitigation by carrying one, but they lose the unfair advantage of shield blocking with it while dealing significant dps.