90 Unbuffed AC

[sirgog]

To the haters: Really? The guys tanks speed runs of Epic Lord of friggin Blades - what is there to criticize? I'm surprised a certain poster hasn't come in here and said it was gimp for not being human.

Not a hater, but I independantly came up with a near-identical build (identical gear setup) that is Human.

Sick work tanking an epLOB speed run.

[maha0201]

Am using Dodge 1 on my Bracers Sat, on a cannith crafting slot.

And yes if i want insane DPS i will log a barb. No point making all my toons do the same thing.

Self buffed can hit 81 Intim

Well for that one i guess monk can give you fire pos fire finisher
( Stated monk, not mine pally )

Nice build and i hope ill see it one day in ToD or LoB. Soon ( TM)

Cheers,
Maha

[protokon]

very nicely done OP, too bad its a dwarf: I hate playing dwarfs, else I would try to emulate your build

[Uska]

I'd really love to see a breakdown of that AC from GREAR perspective.
I'm planning to TR my barb into a human fighter defender with 3 sentinels dragonmark + epic chimera, but even planning is not easy as you can't have all the items you want and one must make a compromise when it comes to gears.
The one I'm planning will be
10 base
9 dexterity bonus (cap ? - details below)
17 armor bonus (epic red dragonplate armor with +1 enchantment bonus in blue slot)
9-11 shield bonus (9 for tower shield base ac, 11 when I get to make a tier 3 alchemical)
9 natural armor (6: epic seal of earth, 3: profane natural for 3 pieces epic abishai set)
4-5 deflection armor (4 slotted in a yellow slot, 5 with shield of faith from Dragonmark)
11-12 dodge bonus
* 4 defender stance
* 3 bracers of wind
* 2 cannith crafted goggles
* 1 alchemical shield bonus
* 1 alchemical armor bonus
* 1 greater nimble trinket / swapped with epic brawn's spirits as situation dictates
6 misc ac
* 4 hightened awareness in epic chimera
* 2 stacking AC in ToD set
9 feat
* 5 combat expertise
* 1 dodge
* 3 stalwart enchancements

I'll sum it as 85-86 AC, because
- in the near furture I'll not be able to craft a tier 3 alchemical
- shield of faith is considered a 'buff' thus couldn't say it as unbuffed AC

The gear is:
Armor: Epic Red Dragonplate Armor
Goggles: Crafted Blindess Immunity Goggles of Dodge +2
Helm: Epic Helm of Frost
Necklace: Stalwart Necklace
Trinket: Greater Nimble Trinket / Epic Brawn's Spirits
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion
Ring1: Cinder's Band
Ring2: Epic Seal of Earth
Bracers: Bracers of Wind (tier 3 preferably, but tier 1 is enough for the dodge AC)
R.Hand: Epich Chimera's Fang
L.Hand: Alchemical Tower shield (Air/Air so far in plan, but not yet crafted as I don't need it in this life)

What I don't understand from the OP's build:

- how do you manage to fit a static +5 delfection AC into an AC build, such as this (or yours) ?
- checked your char on MyDDO and can't see the dodge+1 anywhere in it, but still lists a 90AC :O Or is it just me who can't see it?
although what I see on MyDDO may be not your tanking gear, so thats why a grear breakdown would be much apprecieated.
- how can you make so much dexterity modifier (not the stat itself, but max dex bonus) ?
both tower shield and the armor limits it, both by the same amount, 2 on default.
You take
* Fighter Armor Mastery III (+3 for heavy armor)
* Fighter Tower Shield Mastery II (+2 for shields)
* Fighter Stalwart Defender III (+3 for shields and +2 for heavy armors)
* Greater Nimbleness into a blue augment slot for additional +2 max. dex. bonus (not sure if it works for the shield too or not though)

AFAIK the similar dwarven enchantments do not stack with the fighter ones, but correct me if I'm wrong.

thats a max. +7 dex bonus on top of base 2 to a sum of 9, not 11

I'd really appriciate if the OP could answer my questions, but actually anyone competent could answer ... I'm just wondering how could I reach that value the OP posted.

Ohh and btw: Congratz on the build, really nice achivement ! I'm pretty sure you can tank anything with this build.

The dwarf and fighter enhancments do stack

[Lighti]

Ok ... Lighty sucks :P and he is gimp :P But no Gimper than me so i win :P
Lighty i still got way biger d...... than yours :P

Seriously about sf pots .....but seriously ????????

Congrats to lighty for his awesome build !
PS: (it hurts me to say that a bit but hey .... its Cristmas period :P )

Dae your words mean so much too me. But your toons shall still be king of the gimps no matter what. Now Christmas is over so stop being nice.

Not a hater, but I independantly came up with a near-identical build (identical gear setup) that is Human.

Sick work tanking an epLOB speed run.

Identical Set up yes. The builds them selves are quite different. Personally still see taking more than 1 toughness feat as pointless.

[powerclan]

Finished set up after 2 years of trying to pull an Envenomed Cloak seal.

I was more lucky than you. Had everything of epic envy cloak looted after 1 single epic run :-) (shard/seal/scroll).

[Viisari]

A bit late but gonna say nice work here on the forums too

Can hit around 80-90 with buffs on my monk and I gotta say, having lots of AC is really nice. It's still very useful most of the time outside of epic content. The only bad thing about it is really how ridiculous amounts of gear is required for a decent AC.

We also need more haters here, can never have enough haters.

Also, lol about this **** about SF pots and silly barbs thinking they make for good tanks.

[-Satureon-]

We also need more haters here, can never have enough haters.

Also, lol about this **** about SF pots and silly barbs thinking they make for good tanks.

Ac always generate hate on forums by some type of dps oriented ppl. Prolly not generate hate in the game, so hard to find a healthy balance.

to Lighty:

What if you use 5prot pale ioun stone as trinket? Maybe could give another 1 unbuffed ac as you use 4prot by epic slot.
Your previous setup used the 5prot, but dont know about the last one.

PS: finally i found a way to get the same ac with some crafting on my wf, also tx the nice feedback and inspiration how to make better ac on my old 'solo' build. On long term for the unbuffed 90 i need a +4 str and dex tome OR/AND completionist, otherwise i need to use yugo pots for that.

[Hulligan]

What if you use 5prot pale ioun stone as trinket? Maybe could give another 1 unbuffed ac as you use 4prot by epic slot.

He's using a GS Mineral II, which has prot +5 included.

As for the 'haters' I do understand them to an extent. The problem with AC tanks is that they generally don't care about much of gear and or lack the time / packs / help to get the gear they need and stick with that they can have.... and tend to lose DPS for AC, and some have so low DPS, that even 150-250-300 % of extra threat won't be enough to hold aggro.
I'm experiencing this on my barb, Hegyomlas. He's a DPS-hate tank with so much beating power with the eSos (slotted with devils ruin) , that I can pull bosses OFF almost anyone on Cannith by having "only" 45% extra threat. So in cases when I'm not tanking I always have to swtich gears which is of course a natural reaction but some people are just unwilling to switch gear and so bull-headed they rather cause a party to wipe but not lowering aggro.
It is BOTH the tank AND the rest of the party's responsibility to make a balance, but in general a tank is expected to HOLD the aggro, against the party's highest DPS, without causing loss of damage throughput (by forcing / asking party to lower aggro by switching gear).
Yes, I'm saying a good tank should hold aggro against **anyone** on basic threat generation (not increased deliberatly!)
If an AC tank don't find the right balance in AC and DPS/threat generation it is as if they were useless for the party and thus disliked.
That is the other reason many defenders are only defenders because they get extra HP and extra threat but tather DPS oriented and look down those geared for AC.
I'm on a good way to make my AC tank build too on Cannith, only a few more runs of Tod till 20 to (hopefully) get a cinder's band and even with the end gear in plan I'm still a bit uncertain about it's DPS/threat generation.

[Viisari]

I'm experiencing this on my barb, Hegyomlas. He's a DPS-hate tank with so much beating power with the eSos (slotted with devils ruin) , that I can pull bosses OFF almost anyone on Cannith by having "only" 45% extra threat. So in cases when I'm not tanking I always have to swtich gears which is of course a natural reaction but some people are just unwilling to switch gear and so bull-headed they rather cause a party to wipe but not lowering aggro.

This only applies to crappy and undergeared tanks.

There is no way in hell you could get aggro from an equally geared stalwart, and even IF you did he'd just get it back immediately with intim.

Epic LoB is bit of an exception because there's often lots of blocking done there which in turn means the tank generates less hate.

[Mrmorphling]

Improved shield bash and a flametouched alchemical tower (assuming the arti can make it adamantine) should ease the pain a bit even if i wonder wheter retaining the shield bonus to AC (ISB) means also preventing harmful effects like the mournland debuff.

[grodon9999]

He's using a GS Mineral II, which has prot +5 included.

As for the 'haters' I do understand them to an extent. The problem with AC tanks is that they generally don't care about much of gear and or lack the time / packs / help to get the gear they need and stick with that they can have.... and tend to lose DPS for AC, and some have so low DPS, that even 150-250-300 % of extra threat won't be enough to hold aggro.
I'm experiencing this on my barb, Hegyomlas. He's a DPS-hate tank with so much beating power with the eSos (slotted with devils ruin) , that I can pull bosses OFF almost anyone on Cannith by having "only" 45% extra threat. So in cases when I'm not tanking I always have to swtich gears which is of course a natural reaction but some people are just unwilling to switch gear and so bull-headed they rather cause a party to wipe but not lowering aggro.
It is BOTH the tank AND the rest of the party's responsibility to make a balance, but in general a tank is expected to HOLD the aggro, against the party's highest DPS, without causing loss of damage throughput (by forcing / asking party to lower aggro by switching gear).
Yes, I'm saying a good tank should hold aggro against **anyone** on basic threat generation (not increased deliberatly!)
If an AC tank don't find the right balance in AC and DPS/threat generation it is as if they were useless for the party and thus disliked.
That is the other reason many defenders are only defenders because they get extra HP and extra threat but tather DPS oriented and look down those geared for AC.
I'm on a good way to make my AC tank build too on Cannith, only a few more runs of Tod till 20 to (hopefully) get a cinder's band and even with the end gear in plan I'm still a bit uncertain about it's DPS/threat generation.

So why are you being foolish and wearing additional threat gear when it's your job to hit a boss in the back? Good stalwarts (and any paladin) can hold aggro over ANY full-****** ESOS barb with the additional threat of Claw set. If you're leaving on brute fighting and additional threat gear you're the problem.

[Hulligan]

So why are you being foolish and wearing additional threat gear when it's your job to hit a boss in the back? Good stalwarts (and any paladin) can hold aggro over ANY full-****** ESOS barb with the additional threat of Claw set. If you're leaving on brute fighting and additional threat gear you're the problem.

You have the wrong point there:
- I'm not saying I do pull off the boss, but rather I can.
- 45% w/o orcis aggro toggle. 65% with it. I'm just mostly lazy (as anyone else) to swap gear if don't need to, though If I must I do.
You are right in saying a good defender should have no problem maintaining aggro.
But I'm not speaking of guild raid runs or the very special ones with A-team players. I'm speaking of standard PUGs which you meet every day and I've yet to see so many defenders not able to hold aggro simply because they are undergeared.
A paladin won't stand a chance 'over ANY full-****** ESOS barb' even having 250% aggro if holding relics such a '+4 holy kopesh of tendon slice 4%'. (YES, THIS HAPPENED ON ELITE VOD !!! - we asked the paladin to link his beater)
Yesterday our tank on hard LoB had the basic 10% heal amp from ship and that was all. 90+ AC... yep. but no heal amp.
Making a good tank is very gear intensive. Having the modifications on PrEs of both fighter / paladin classes they made people think they can now tank anything. Then comes the awkward moment they realize they can not.
It's everyone's responsibility to watch over his/her developement in gears, gameplay etc but the tank is not for the beginners.
Hope you got my point.

[grodon9999]

You have the wrong point there:
- I'm not saying I do pull off the boss, but rather I can.
- 45% w/o orcis aggro toggle. 65% with it. I'm just mostly lazy (as anyone else) to swap gear if don't need to, though If I must I do.
You are right in saying a good defender should have no problem maintaining aggro.
But I'm not speaking of guild raid runs or the very special ones with A-team players. I'm speaking of standard PUGs which you meet every day and I've yet to see so many defenders not able to hold aggro simply because they are undergeared.
A paladin won't stand a chance 'over ANY full-****** ESOS barb' even having 250% aggro if holding relics such a '+4 holy kopesh of tendon slice 4%'. (YES, THIS HAPPENED ON ELITE VOD !!! - we asked the paladin to link his beater)
Yesterday our tank on hard LoB had the basic 10% heal amp from ship and that was all. 90+ AC... yep. but no heal amp.
Making a good tank is very gear intensive. Having the modifications on PrEs of both fighter / paladin classes they made people think they can now tank anything. Then comes the awkward moment they realize they can not.
It's everyone's responsibility to watch over his/her developement in gears, gameplay etc but the tank is not for the beginners.
Hope you got my point.

You point is your judging all defenders based on some really poor players? That's all I'm seeing.

[Hulligan]

You point is your judging all defenders based on some really poor players? That's all I'm seeing.

Then you're seeing it wrong. Read my earliear post a few more time (posted: 01-11-2012, 12:33 PM). Not gonna copy+paste it.

EDIT: It's really a nice achievement to hit 90 (or even 80-85) unbuffed AC, but I highly discourage people new to this game to go and start a defender just on bases of an existing build, because putting up all the end-game gear takes months. And this is the point where (in my experience) many tanks fail. It is (should be) a lead idea for the veterans.

[Lighti]

I agree that there are lots of SD around giving us a bad name (these silly hp SD that think they need over 1000 hp for some reason being some). In my opinion AC SD and DoS they are the hardest toons in the game to build. They are the most gear and stat intensive toons having to get a combination of almost every aspect of the game.

To get a top AC they need everything, only my gloves and Trinket dont give me AC.
Max out there damage (this is where lots of people go wrong).
They have to nigh on max Intim out, 82 being needed for eLoB.
Find space/swap in's for hate gear.
Then hit around 800 hp.

They are not for the faint hearted. But if you manage it the rewards are tremendous.


Also, why are you on 45% hate. Claw gives you 20%. There are no other DPS items with hate on them. You are loosing DPS for hate when it is not needed. Fair enough using hate gear when tanking for the extra cushion of knowledge that you have that 25% more.

[Hulligan]

Also, why are you on 45% hate. Claw gives you 20%. There are no other DPS items with hate on them. You are loosing DPS for hate when it is not needed. Fair enough using hate gear when tanking for the extra cushion of knowledge that you have that 25% more.

I'm using DT robe with 10% and 15% incite and destruction slotted. Actually the destruction was important to me to hit the epic Abishai Devastator face to face on a roll of 2, when was tanking without the eSos.
Now I don't really need that ... it's just I don't have anything better in the light armor category that would benefit me about the same way. For tanking purposes it's still ok, because the extra aggro is fine against even for sorcerers and the destruction effect helps the lower geared members of the party (if any). For the epic Abishai I now use the Chaosrobe slotted with 10 reflex which put me to 36 reflex unbuffed, which is enough with a single GH to evade the dragon breath on a roll of 2.
Don't take me wrong I don't pull aggro from the tanks. I am the tank. In the rare cases when not, I'm changing gears or swap to other character. Too bad the barb became a little bit squishy in HP compared to the SD and for LoB my barb is definetly not the best. Thanks to my guildies I almost have all the final gear for the planned build, missing a few RED scales for the armor, and some Tod runs just for the chance to pull a tome (this evening we managed to pull a Cinder's band), then TR. And extra thanks for the tips in this forum to the OP and Sirgog for posting their tank build idea - it helped me determine / clarify what I really need / should look for.