The Offensive Caster spec that can hurt with a sword build

[Firesmall_at]

Some notable things.

Enhancements:
The human versatility line tiers 1 and 2 are good for leveling with power attack on. The energy Zelot line was taken too, but those enhancment points become more important for other things than melee and 50 mana points at high level. Any kind a mana reduction enhancements are ok leveling, but become less important as a percentage of spell points at high levels. Same thing applies to human recovery due to average hitpoints being 500 and being overhealed with a Heal spell.

I have decided that mana pots are so cheap at the ddo store that it negates the need for mana reduction enhancements allowing more points into melee earlier and offensive smiting at higher level.

feats:
Took extend and improved critical slash as a cleric feat at lvl 12. Swapped extend out after lvl 6-9, so I could take quicken. At lvl 14 took improved critical slash as a fighter feat with 2nd FTR lvl at lvl 14.

Changes include increasing wisdom from 16 to 17 and reducing STR from 15 to 13.


At level 20 his melee does over 150 points on a critical hit. Average melee is 70-100 points. Weapons include cursespewing and holy burst falchions with a seeker item or a seeker falchion at high level. At low level keen flachions until improved critical slash is taken.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

T4 
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 296
Spell Points: 1280 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 5
Will: 21

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             13                 13                   14
Dexterity             8                  8                    8
Constitution         15                 15                   16
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom               17                 26                   30
Charisma             14                 14                   14

Tomes Used
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                     9
Bluff                 2                     2
Concentration         6                    25
Diplomacy             2                     2
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     2
Heal                  3                    12
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate            2                     2
Jump                  1                     2
Listen                3                    10
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  3                    10
Swim                  1                     2
Tumble               n/a                    0
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

{\b {\ul Notable Equipment }} \par Kilau's Band \par Verik's Ring \par Teraza's Sight \par Amara's Belt \par Tokala's Belt \par Rahkir's Sash \par Charismatic Cloak \par Vorne's Belt \par  \par 

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Enhancement: Improved Heal I


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+2)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting IV
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II

[Therrias]

Why so much charisma? For melee, I would put those points in Strength and Con

[Firesmall_at]

Well the main focus is offensive casting, however healing is the strongest asset of a cleric. Melee is always third rate on a 2 level splash cleric IMHO.

Divine Might 1 is the only required enhancement that is good for the radiant servant prereq. Base CHR 14 is required for it. DM1, and Human Versatility makes up for a lack of STR at low level to make melee more effective for leveling up to be traded out later with increases in Divine Favor and having Divine Power item or spell.

The radiant bursts TU numbers become more important later. More turns are a nice asset too. WIS and CON needs to be old due to human. STR odd for 2nd FTR lvl. Enhancements are used to even out these numbers. Using 3 points for CON is not worth it.

Some offensive damage is given up for the FTR splash, but it is worth it for the feats, and because this is a fun build IMHO. Just not at the expense of DC checks or turn undeads.

[good_ole_corwin]

Personally I dont like the build, sorry. With 20 STR (+ship buffs, yugo, etc.) you wont be hitting much endgame, pretty much nothing at all with PA on. Your offensive casting will consist only of BB+DP, as you wont have the spell pen and DCs to land anything reliably (ok, 38 DC with ship buffs, yugo and a +2 item on implosion isnt bad, but implo is rather unreliable since its unguided and doubly so since you dont have any spell pen to speak of).

So for melee you dont have enough to-hit and are kinda squishy. For offensive casting - debuffs and CC you dont have the spell pen (and DCs arent stellar either) for offensive casting - nuking you dont have the SP pool. For healbotting you dont have the SP pool either.

Unless you have more gear that you havent listed (which I hope is the case) and plan to use +2 tomes for STR, CON and possibly CHA, I would strongly discourage from this build. And I would strongly discourage from using an ultra-rare consummable that is the +4 tome on a first life character in any case. TRing a few times would give you more build options and let you accumulate the good gear...

[good_ole_corwin]

WIS and CON needs to be old due to human. STR odd for 2nd FTR lvl. Enhancements are used to even out these numbers.

I think youre forgetting to take into account the +1 exceptional bonuses from gear, those will make them odd again. Not sure what "STR odd for 2nd FTR lvl" means

[Firesmall_at]

I think youre forgetting to take into account the +1 exceptional bonuses from gear, those will make them odd again. Not sure what "STR odd for 2nd FTR lvl" means

I thought that and changed it due exception upgrade to +2

[good_ole_corwin]

Exceptional +1 and exceptional +2 stack. And the rings arent upgraded from +1 to +2, the +2 is added on them, so they effectively become +3.

[Firesmall_at]

Personally I dont like the build, sorry. With 20 STR (+ship buffs, yugo, etc.) you wont be hitting much endgame, pretty much nothing at all with PA on. Your offensive casting will consist only of BB+DP, as you wont have the spell pen and DCs to land anything reliably (ok, 38 DC with ship buffs, yugo and a +2 item on implosion isnt bad, but implo is rather unreliable since its unguided and doubly so since you dont have any spell pen to speak of).

So for melee you dont have enough to-hit and are kinda squishy. For offensive casting - debuffs and CC you dont have the spell pen (and DCs arent stellar either) for offensive casting - nuking you dont have the SP pool. For healbotting you dont have the SP pool either.

Unless you have more gear that you havent listed (which I hope is the case) and plan to use +2 tomes for STR, CON and possibly CHA, I would strongly discourage from this build. And I would strongly discourage from using an ultra-rare consummable that is the +4 tome on a first life character in any case. TRing a few times would give you more build options and let you accumulate the good gear...

Did not know the rings stack for +3. Surprised cause the Mats are not that hard to get. Thanks. Guess my original stats of WIS16 and STR15 apply then. Unless there is exceptional +4?
I don't have the rings yet and guess I will keep the stats at WIS16 STR15. I plan on getting the CON TOD ring and the WIS TOD ring. Then drop sora kell. There is some nice lvl 18 gear out there.

The 2nd FTR lvl gives u STR +1 enhancement.


I think you have some valid points there except you are mixing apples and oranges. This build has been great with high level content. Just have not tried elite or epic lvl18+ with it. As for epic it is so bad I don't see many LFMs for it lately or elite raids for 18-20 content for that matter. It is just not worth it to even those umber toons I guess from what i read on the forums and the complaints.
Most on the forum say DC38 is ok to be effective. So what if there is a save once in a while. As for Spell penatration that is a all in or all out type of thing and more for guys on their 3rd Cleric TR than an intermediate 32 point first life. And situational, so not needed often, hence let the Wizard feel special.

Seems you think that a first life splash cleric can not be effective. Maybe for epic and elite content lvl 18+ which is no big deal and hardly even LFM, and not necessary to cap to lvl 20. For the elite or epic lvl18+ content the last thing I am going to do as a Cleric is pull aggro. More likely I will be keeping the tank, and the wizard alive. Not interested in their jobs either. My offensive casting is to save the wizard spell points in normal and hard high level content and elite/epic trash. It is cheaper to kill the mobs/trash quickly than to heal in terms of mana. Bosses/orange names means having a more set roll to play. As for being an effective healbot for elite/epic lvl18+... that is easy with 18 levels of cleric and maybe a mana pot or 2 from the ddo store. So lack of spell points is not an issue due to that. On hard and normal content heal/heal scroll with no pots is working out good.

This toon with normal lvl18+ gear has 400 hit points and pushing 450 with spell buffs. Is that not enough? cause everyone else on here says it is. I don't think the +2 CHR tome or +2 CON tome is needed. Just WIS +2 is required. After I got the Wisdom +4 tome I decided to use it and not worry about TRing this guy. I then said due to that lets get him a CON +2 tome. Also Conop for hitpoints. Needs tier3.

Can't hit... squashy... spells ineffective...wow. No way! Not from my experience with it. It has been a great ride to level 20. If your looking for a fun Cleric that is not pure, but still effective with offensive spells then melee I think this is the build for you.

[Spiffyspiffy]

I have decided that mana pots

Stopped reading. Poor thought process leads to poor design.

[Habreno]

32-point build?

STR: 14
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 18
CHA: 12

This is much better.

+2 Tomes for all would be nice. 12+2 Tome for CHA means DM I, all you need.

Enhancements: STR +1 Human, STR +1 Fighter, WIS +3 Cleric, WIS +1 Human, CHA +2 Cleric

CON: 14 + 2 Tome + 6 Gear = 22. Reasonable.

STR: 14 + 2 Tome + 2 Enhancement + 6 Item = 24. Add buffs/exceptionals, 30+ is easy; I hit 29 on my Cleric who started with a 10. He TWF's and still hits most end-game bosses, as a pure 20.

MAX YOUR WIS.

[erikbozelie]

dont like these types of build,
but if i where to build something like that, take a 3rd level splash. whatever it is. it is worth the drop of a few sp.

monks do it better for splashes.

[Firesmall_at]

32-point build?

STR: 14
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 18
CHA: 12

This is much better.

+2 Tomes for all would be nice. 12+2 Tome for CHA means DM I, all you need.

Enhancements: STR +1 Human, STR +1 Fighter, WIS +3 Cleric, WIS +1 Human, CHA +2 Cleric

CON: 14 + 2 Tome + 6 Gear = 22. Reasonable.

STR: 14 + 2 Tome + 2 Enhancement + 6 Item = 24. Add buffs/exceptionals, 30+ is easy; I hit 29 on my Cleric who started with a 10. He TWF's and still hits most end-game bosses, as a pure 20.

MAX YOUR WIS.

I would agree with this for lvl20 end game, and will prob LR to it. For leveling I like the increased STR. With the extra FTR level and STR+1 I might go STR13 and CHR14. I plan on TOD rings exceptional CON and WIS for now. Not sure about STR TOD rings/items and the grind for it.

[Firesmall_at]

Stopped reading. Poor thought process leads to poor design.

It is a different thought process. You just can't handle it I guess. Some of you guys are so caught up in making the perfect builds that you don't realize there are other ways to go about it, and make a really fun build to watch in action. God forbid u have to amp it from the DDO store. It is somehow unholy to spend DDO points to amp the game. Maybe you are just jealous cause you have to grind so much to amp your builds, but I support the game for you in the process. I am not a 15 year old boy, and I don't plan on keeping up with them either. I am too old and my reflexes have slowed down. I have a job and a life outside this game. I don't have the spare time to micro amp the grind for my build. Going Cleric minimizes my wait times for LFMs to form, and gives me other options besides grinding all the greensteel and all the gear.

If I would have used those mana pots leveling up IMHO it would have been more fun. You know there are shrines in the stupidest places in this game anyway because it is a game... what boss would want a rest shrine/rez shrine right near his stronghold. He goes through all this **** to beaf up his defenses only to let strangers rest/rez before they attack. He doesn't destroy the shrines? GMAFB. They should do away with them, but not everyone can afford pots.

[good_ole_corwin]

Well then if youre only interested in levelling and lvl18+ content on normal, which your responses seem to indicate, tbh it doesnt matter what the build is, especially if you wanna spend TPs on mundane things such as mana pots. Quests on normal are easy if you know what youre doing at least a little bit. Ive capped and TRed through easy epics a very much gimped 28-build cleric and didnt even need to buy pots from the store.

And yes, it is a different mentality, but I dont approve of the whole "dang, we having problems? Let me buy mana/heal/mummy rot/w/e pots, let me cake, get a gold seal hire, its more fun for me than planning ahead with my build and gear" approach. Im not trying to tell you how to have fun, I just dont understand where your fun comes from.

Oh yes, and before somebody starts about supporting the game, I have VIP subscription, thank you very much.

But back to your points:
There is no exceptional +3 to stats that I know of (just the +1 and +2 that stack), no +4 or higher either.

SR is not situational really. Pretty much everything in Amrath has SR, half the stuff in Vale has SR, some of the Inspired Quarter mobs have SR... You will encounter SR in basically all the high lvl content. No biggie on normal, different story on elite. Epics, well, there is actually less SR in epics (pretty much just drow and mobs in eDA) than the high lvl content.

38 DCs are not bad, but thats evocation only - matters pretty much just for implosion, which as I said is an unguided missile. You could try going the necro route and bring your necro DCs to 38 and make yourself more effective at sniping out casters with destruction (and running to them with Slay if it fails for a second chance) - IMHO it brings more utility to the party than waiting what implosion is going to hit, only to watch it wash off the beefy melee mobs - casters and archers tend to have low fort saves to begin with, further increasing your chances of landing the instakill.

Im admittedly a HPs junkie as I will be sitting at 622 HPs fully buffed when I cleanse a GS HPs item (and Im a caster specced FvS). But you should be able to hit 500 without too much difficulty or sacrifice, really: 296 base, +20 from a +2 con tome, +60 from a +6 con item, +20 toughness item, +30 greater false life, +45 GS, +20 rage (clickie or pot), thats 491 self-sustainable. +20 from exceptional con, +40 from yugo pot, thats 551 self-sustainable after some endgame content. +20 from ship buffs if you can get them for a total of 571, even a little bit more if you can craft/get crafted a guild slot item. Moar HPs is always good, even if you are not likely to pull aggro. There are mobs/bosses with pretty much random aggro or regular aggro resets (teleporting mobs, Im looking at you!) and you probably want to stay with the melee pile to be as useful as possible - AoE effects on the tank, cleaves and stuff like that...

Heal scrolls are cool and if the tank is good (either an AC tank build or DR+healing amp), you can keep him up with just scrolls, wands and possibly the aura. A good bard can keep a good tank up, its the group healing thats the resource hog. Furthermore, more SPs means not just healing, but dotting up the boss and other stuff. But we dont see eye to eye on pot consumption, so meh.

Your to-hit of course wont be a problem in normal content, especially when not having aggro. Elites and epics again, probably different story. I would recommend trying to test whether youre doing more damage with PA on or off - obviously you wont hit as hard with it off, but if youre averaging 70+ damage on a hit and miss on a roll of, say, 5, then getting rid of PA will increase/keep the same DPS and free up a feat.

[Habreno]

On the topic of PA: Bad idea. You won't have the to-hit you need for it to work, and while it is 10 points a swing, THFing, it's very hard to keep it on all the time. This coming from a Cleric who TWF's (-8 penalty) without the feats, and has near 30 STR buffed, which is where you'd be with decent gear. PA is a -5, so it's a bit less than TWF, but it's still enough that you will be having it off more than not. VoD Normal you could probably have it on, but any raid in a higher level you'd probably have it off.

And on a side note: I have a really hard time hitting in Epics. But I do on occasion.

[Firesmall_at]

We are barely getting by with 3 clerics in TOD normal without mana pots. I imagine 2 clerics would be drinking mana pots. When I LFM raids I like 53+ levels of divine (3). The completion rate is better. It is always nice to have a 3rd backup.

12-15 cents or wasting an hour of my life? I will spend the 15 cents... even 60 cents on pots if I have to. Did TOD the other day and it was close. The other Clerics were pure. One was at 30 mana and just piked. I was getting low and so was number 3. I was like I shouldn't have to use pots with 3 Clerics in the party. Boss was close to dead. I went in radiant bursted then ran out of harms way with the boss. Luckily I didn't die and regen him. Should have just drank a pot, but I wanted to see if someone else would. Guess not. Better to wipe? :roll.

Would have gave up a +2 wis tome, and some nice tod rings plus an hour of my life. Gave the tome away to highest roll. Got the exceptional CON ring. Nice.

[good_ole_corwin]

We are barely getting by with 3 clerics in TOD normal without mana pots.

Bad tactics, bad builds (this includes bad equips), bad/inexperienced players or any combination of those. Also, with or without Suulo?

If you had 3 clerics (not 3 divines) that are solid builds and players (400+ HPs, superior ardor clickies, etc.), theres no reason for them to not stay near enough the melee pile and have 3 auras on them. That should be enough, unless you have the melee pile consist of totally not ToD-worthy people, to keep them up - and 3 people using scrolls, wands and occasional emergency heal should be enough to keep the tank up plenty. Even easier at the Shadowmaster fight, provided you have a competent shadow kiter/tank. And was the cleric that ran out of SPs out of turns as well? Ive unfortunately seen plenty of clerics that for some reason do not use their bursts (personally I blame the frequently present "ZOMG THE AURA IS UBER" attitude of the forum that seems to underestimate bursts), which is IMHO like walking into a fight holding a gun in one hand and throwing bullets with the other instead of shooting.

If the group doesnt have a tank that can hold aggro or the DPS to bring the Judge down reasonably quickly or a competent arcane to deal with shadows or a light monk/healers with high enough saves to prevent stuns, you dont have a suitable group for ToD. No reason for divines to buy the completion for the others with TP points in that case.

On the other hand, those 2 cleric lvls youre giving up are close to a major pot (regular, not store) per rest in lost SPs.

[Firesmall_at]

Bad tactics, bad builds (this includes bad equips), bad/inexperienced players or any combination of those. Also, with or without Suulo?

If you had 3 clerics (not 3 divines) that are solid builds and players (400+ HPs, superior ardor clickies, etc.), theres no reason for them to not stay near enough the melee pile and have 3 auras on them. That should be enough, unless you have the melee pile consist of totally not ToD-worthy people, to keep them up - and 3 people using scrolls, wands and occasional emergency heal should be enough to keep the tank up plenty. Even easier at the Shadowmaster fight, provided you have a competent shadow kiter/tank. And was the cleric that ran out of SPs out of turns as well? Ive unfortunately seen plenty of clerics that for some reason do not use their bursts (personally I blame the frequently present "ZOMG THE AURA IS UBER" attitude of the forum that seems to underestimate bursts), which is IMHO like walking into a fight holding a gun in one hand and throwing bullets with the other instead of shooting.

If the group doesnt have a tank that can hold aggro or the DPS to bring the Judge down reasonably quickly or a competent arcane to deal with shadows or a light monk/healers with high enough saves to prevent stuns, you dont have a suitable group for ToD. No reason for divines to buy the completion for the others with TP points in that case.

On the other hand, those 2 cleric lvls youre giving up are close to a major pot (regular, not store) per rest in lost SPs.

I think one Cleric was a little slow healing the tank, and I had to start backing him up too early into the part 4 Boss fight. Maybe it was lag. Lag is a killer in this game. Still not a reason to waste my time with a party wipe unless I can't even move. I have had mostly easy runs with 3 divine TOD raids usually a pure cleric, me and a Fav. Just sometimes u don't know what u got even if u checked for a tank, light monk and boots.

Some valid points except for the first paragraph. It is just called pugging. I don't have the time or the schedule to only run with guildies that I know are good. I have to get on and get off before the wife has something more important for me to do.

Bad build/tactics/inexp...

Build/tactics- not when pugging in a 6 man quest. That splash can make up the difference if someone else is lacking. As for raids the extra 2 levels would help slightly in sp for 18+ raids, but not leveling up to it. It is hard enough getting raids to form let alone waiting for the toons you know. Get-her-done I say. Never used DDO mana pots till late levels, and was give most or dropped in game when needed until then. Wish I had started using them earlier though. They are just too cheap. The build is great without them, but they are nice to have when needed.

inexp- When you pug it is far from an ideal universe. And for some reason I get lots of tells and invites. There is something about someone messing up and me helping them get through it that they remember I guess. Maybe impresses others too, and others prefer to leave the weak behind.

Then if the lag is bad it does not matter how amp your build is.

We are lucky enough that the servers are paid for. Don't take that for granted or the elitism will cause this to fade away.

It is about the fun. The teamwork. The group. Everything else is over rated and less important than you think.

[good_ole_corwin]

Some valid points except for the first paragraph. It is just called pugging. I don't have the time or the schedule to only run with guildies that I know are good. I have to get on and get off before the wife has something more important for me to do.

Has nothing to do with guilds either. It starts as pugging. You observe who plays how. If theyre good, they go on my friends list. If theyre messing up, I try to help. If they mess up continuously, spectacularly and disregard any advice or help offered, they go on my special friends list and I try to avoid them. Check who is online, ask them if they wanna run/have a slot/whatever and run with them and pugging stops being random pugging soon enough.

Maybe its server-specific, but Thelanis doesnt appear to have that big of a problem filling pugs as Ive heard it described. Raid groups usually fill within 10-20 minutes and combined with the above mentioned strategy I dont see that many failures (its usually when I lower my standards and run with a group that is certain to have issues that theres a fail)

Build/tactics- not when pugging in a 6 man quest. That splash can make up the difference if someone else is lacking. As for raids the extra 2 levels would help slightly in sp for 18+ raids, but not leveling up to it. It is hard enough getting raids to form let alone waiting for the toons you know. Get-her-done I say.

Again, IMHO lvling up a first lifer, especially 32 points build, is not a challenge, nor does it require "OMG I HAVE NO RL" lvl of commitment, no matter what the class, especially if the player has experience, knows the quest and can get any kind of twink gear. I guess it also depends on what kind of content you have access to, the wider the selection, the easier and faster it gets (first run XP bonuses).

inexp- When you pug it is far from an ideal universe. And for some reason I get lots of tells and invites. There is something about someone messing up and me helping them get through it that they remember I guess. Maybe impresses others too, and others prefer to leave the weak behind.

Leaving the weak behind sucks, and shouldnt be done, really. The weak that can work in a group and listen to advice will eventually become strong, theres no reason to leave them behind (and tbh, such people will rarely be the cause of a wipe - unless the whole group consists of "weak" or the weaknesses are not reflected in used tactics). Those that I personally "leave behind", well...
Theres one guy that I met while he was a capped wiz, running an epic Claw of Vulkoor. The group wiped on the first guardian scorpion, because while he claimed he could CC in there, I didnt see him cast a single spell (I though I saw enervations going off, but then again people had enervation guards on them, so hard to say). Then I saw him TR into a cleric and I met him in elite Madstone Crater at lvl 15-ish. He fell into the first lavapit we found, died and since we couldnt get his stone, piked the rest of the run, didnt even say thanks at the end. I dont think there will be a third time of me running with him.
Then there was another guy that was making a pug for a Stealer of Souls , we were waiting to fill, I had to take an afk, which I announced in party chat. Took longer than expected (you know how buggy RL can be), about 10 minutes instead of the announced 2 or so. I was in a public area. When I came back, I was without a group, which I expected, but then I saw the party chat. The leader went in the quest and when they realized I was afk and the quest was timed, they decided to run it, I would catch up. Well, without a healer they all died on the first elemental master. According to the party chat the group was baffled as to why the quest got started without me, the leader only said "Stupid noob healer, I hope your mother dies". I sent tells apologizing to them, explaining about the RL, I wished the leaders mother a long and healthy life and squelched him, wont be running with him again.
Then I met a guy, fighter/ranger/rogue build that was too squishy and died a few times in normal Shroud. I started talking with him, we looked at his equips and enhancements, we looked at the AH and he talked to his trainer, we got his HPs up by 100-150 HPs, got him better weapons, he learnt to stay in the melee pile to get heals, and I certainly have no problems running with him now.

Sorry, got a little carried away, but I hope you get my point. Pugging is what you make of it...

We are lucky enough that the servers are paid for. Don't take that for granted or the elitism will cause this to fade away.

Did I mention Im VIP? Youre welcome :-P (kidding, lol). Seriously though, how many people do you think have the mentality to keep buying pots and cakes and whatnot to keep the servers up? I think most will get frustrated and quit after a while. Theres good elitism and bad elitism (more like smugness - is that a word?) IMHO. The "bad elitists" will tell people how stupidly weak they are and to not bother them again, freaking noobs. The "good elitists" will tell people how to become "elite" or at least get close to it given their resources (such as playing time), thus increasing the retention rate (because some of the weak soon-to-be-frustrated will then become less weak and more enjoying the game). The people that stay will buy new content, classes, races, and I think thats more revenue than manapots and cakes over their limited time staying in the game - I could be wrong though of course.

It is about the fun. The teamwork. The group. Everything else is over rated and less important than you think.

I could partially sign that last bit. However, Ive had a similar debate before, I was told that "being a good player" is more important than build and gear. However, my belief is that the build and gear is a part of "being a good player". As is being able to work in a team and have fun