Pale Master vs. Amrath

[sheintao]

Hey guys. I've been trying to get my necro DC up high enough to be effective in Amrath, but I just learned that it's their spell resistance that is giving me trouble, not DC. Is this something that can be overcome, or is necromancy simply not effective against devils? I didn't take any of the spell penetration enhancements... but before i reset and re-spec.. is it going to help much?

Thanks for your time and advice,
-Scott

[grodon9999]

Got a first life PM, and have NO TROUBLE killing stuff there.

You just need to remember . . . you are NOT a one-trick pony.

Web, Ice storm, DOTs on bosses, etc . . . use these tools on what you can't insta-kill.

With a 42 DC the insta kills work okay, but it's probably cheaper/easier to just use web and ice storm.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I solo the Amrath quests (not ToD of course) on my 1st life PM all the time, 2 Spell Pen feat + 3 enhancements and VII spell pen item for FoD compliment a 40 necro DC quite well.

But that's not how I really do it, with Con Op goggles I just go in form and kill everything with slas and the occasional Wail/Finger when I get tired of slas, DoT bosses and Necrotic ray/Polar ray them with Ice Storm on top.

That way I complete the quest with 50% sp left, add Torc for extra sp.

[sweez]

You should have no trouble bypassing their SR or you're going to be slightly useless in say Tod part 3, hard/elite Vod or eChrono.

On a first lifer you should really have both spell pen feats AND an AP investment. 30ish is a good number to aim for, but having a bit more doesn't hurt. With a 30+ spell pen check and ~41-42 necro DC it's actually extremely sp-effective to just gather up and instakill Amrath mobs.

I even recommend taking elf as a race (they have cheap stackable spell pen enhancements) if you don't have wiz past lives, a lot of people ignore spell pen inexplicably.

I've ran elite Sins in 12-ish minutes on my 2nd life elven PM (no wizard PL though, just FvS), no need to shrine, other than red-names never had any need to use a damaging spell.

[CheeseMilk]

I recommend the Magewright's Spectacles from a rare chest in the Cannith Slayer area. +6 int, spell pen IX.

The Twelve scholar ship buff essentially gives you Minor Spell Penetration IX.

To get through Spell Resistance, you're rolling 1d20 + your caster level + any enhancements or items you have, and going against whatever the spell resistance of the creature is. It's pretty easy to figure out what the creature's SR is, since your roll shows up on your screen and in your combat log, so just cast a bunch of SR applicable spells at it until you figure out roughly what you need to get through. Bazdor at the beginning of Epic Chrono has an SR of 35, for example, so a 20th-level wizard with no enhancements or items would have to roll 16-20 (25%) to get through it. Adding a Spell Pen item and taking even two levels of the enhancement line would increase that chance to 12-20 (45%), so even a little bit definitely helps. Some creatures have lower SR, some much higher (I'm looking at YOU, elite Shroud Bezekiras), so you'll probably have to find a work around to deal with those effectively.

Remember, SR does NOT apply to all spells, most damaging spells are not affected. Insta-kills, debuffs, single-target CC, that's where you have to worry about it, but your DOTs, polar rays and the like aren't a problem. Your spell descriptions will tell you whether SR applies to any given spell or not.

Debuffs like Energy Drain will not lower SR. The only way I know of to do so is with a Shattermantle weapon, and that's only for a short time.

Short answer:

Yes, basically every extra point of extra Spell Penetration you have increases your chance of having a spell actually land by 5%, so it's totally worthwhile, even if it's only a few points.

[tinyelvis]

Spell resistance is a horrible abomination thrust on the casting world. It has its roots in PnP play and dates back to some of the earliest convoluted incarnations of the game. Its a double jeapardy effect, essentially a shielding effect, against magic. The closest thing a melee has to it is fortification (however, that effect only applies to crits). Imagine the uproar if some tough trash mobs had a shielding effect that blocked say slash attack unless a slash penetration role was made, but I digress.

Spell resistance sucks because unless you completely overcome its effects, it will drastically reduce your efficiency. For example, take a trash mob who has a mere 1 in 20 chance to resist your spell (the least possible amount). Even if you only fail to land this spell 1 in 20 ( the best possible chance), your success rate will be cut down to landing in now 1 in 10. Lower DC and/or spell pen lead to even worse behavior. These effects grow multiplicatively when dealing with multiple foes. IT is total ****.

Spell pen is the great untold secret of DC casting. Sometime it is applied arbitrarily in DDO. There are trash mob pirates, for example, with spell resistance a drow would die for. Most people who claim it is easy to build an uber pale master, fail to take this aspect into account.

Your first goal should be to get to Spell Pen 30+. 60 - 70% of end game content will be open to you. But this is only the start of the journey. To become that Pale master you saw killing everything while playing your melee. The one who dominated the kill count and made it seem easy. The one you wanted to be, you will need to get to 40+.

Neither goal is "easy" so to speak. To start with, every first life Pale master should probably be an elf, and every end life PM an elf as well. In the current game, to became a top knotch PM will take many months to years of grinding depending on how often you play. If your not an elf and you dont have good item boosts, then you will hit the wall of spell resistance by end game. The best you can do by taking feats and enhancements is around 27. This is too low.

Dont look to melee for help. They have not the sense to debuff mobs in effects that benefit them, let alone you. Plus they are not too eager to improve your attacks.

Work toward a great spell pen 8 item to buff your 7th level and lower insta spells. Next work toward a 9 item. Collect any item that will boost your caster level and covers resistible spells. Finally, start the trek toward TR'n three times as a wiz and perhaps multiple times as a favored soul.

[Enoach]

Spell Penetration for a 1st life Caster

20 -> Caster Levels [Splashes will reduce this]
2 -> Spell Penetration Feat
2 -> Greater Spell Penetration Feat
3 -> Spell Penetration Enhancements
2 -> Spell Penetration Item - Spell Level of the item limits which spells it can be useful for
==
29 Spell Penetration

Now if you have the above there are a few extra things that can help:

+1 Greater Spell Penetration Item -> Rare for Higher levels, but can be found on Random items for up to 6 - Might even be craftable

+1 to +4 for Elves -> Spell Point line for Elf Wizard adds Spell Penetration per rank

+1 Ship Buff -> Member of the Twelve - Does require Guild with access to this buff

Next is the use of Enervation type abilities that reduce levels - Enervation, Level Drain, Symbol of Death and Circle of Death.

However, knowing the best spell to use goes a lot further then a High DC/Spell Penetration score.

[Simplesimon1979]

Spell resistance sucks because unless you completely overcome its effects, it will drastically reduce your efficiency. For example, take a trash mob who has a mere 1 in 20 chance to resist your spell (the least possible amount). Even if you only fail to land this spell 1 in 20 ( the best possible chance), your success rate will be cut down to landing in now 1 in 10. Lower DC and/or spell pen lead to even worse behavior. These effects grow multiplicatively when dealing with multiple foes. IT is total ****.

Actually with Spell Pen a 1 isn't auto fail. As long as the total beats there SR you then get the DC check

[Malky]

+1 Ship Buff -> Member of the Twelve - Does require Guild with access to this buff

I think that one doesn't stack with items, it can be handy until you have a spell pen 9 item tho.

[soloist12]

Spell resistance is a horrible abomination thrust on the casting world. It has its roots in PnP play and dates back to some of the earliest convoluted incarnations of the game. Its a double jeapardy effect, essentially a shielding effect, against magic. The closest thing a melee has to it is fortification (however, that effect only applies to crits). Imagine the uproar if some tough trash mobs had a shielding effect that blocked say slash attack unless a slash penetration role was made, but I digress.

Spell resistance sucks because unless you completely overcome its effects, it will drastically reduce your efficiency. For example, take a trash mob who has a mere 1 in 20 chance to resist your spell (the least possible amount). Even if you only fail to land this spell 1 in 20 ( the best possible chance), your success rate will be cut down to landing in now 1 in 10. Lower DC and/or spell pen lead to even worse behavior. These effects grow multiplicatively when dealing with multiple foes. IT is total ****.

Spell pen is the great untold secret of DC casting. Sometime it is applied arbitrarily in DDO. There are trash mob pirates, for example, with spell resistance a drow would die for. Most people who claim it is easy to build an uber pale master, fail to take this aspect into account.

Your first goal should be to get to Spell Pen 30+. 60 - 70% of end game content will be open to you. But this is only the start of the journey. To become that Pale master you saw killing everything while playing your melee. The one who dominated the kill count and made it seem easy. The one you wanted to be, you will need to get to 40+.

Neither goal is "easy" so to speak. To start with, every first life Pale master should probably be an elf, and every end life PM an elf as well. In the current game, to became a top knotch PM will take many months to years of grinding depending on how often you play. If your not an elf and you dont have good item boosts, then you will hit the wall of spell resistance by end game. The best you can do by taking feats and enhancements is around 27. This is too low.

Dont look to melee for help. They have not the sense to debuff mobs in effects that benefit them, let alone you. Plus they are not too eager to improve your attacks.

Work toward a great spell pen 8 item to buff your 7th level and lower insta spells. Next work toward a 9 item. Collect any item that will boost your caster level and covers resistible spells. Finally, start the trek toward TR'n three times as a wiz and perhaps multiple times as a favored soul.

Firstly, spell resistance is akin to +hit for melee. It's there so you can't solo more than you already can as a caster without a bit of gear/tring. Do we do partial damage on a hit fail? No, so it's the same.

Secondly, don't make it sound like melee are out to get you by not using dual shattermantles. They have their own effective weapons or, if a rogue, can easily assassinate casters better than you can.

Thirdly, it's a team game. Don't be so fiesty if the other 5 members of the group aren't going out of their way to cater to you.

[Solmage]

As a first life wizard, aim for 2 spell penetration feats and 3 enhancements and 1 spell pen item. It will be "enough" but you will still want it to be higher.

[sweez]

+1 Ship Buff -> Member of the Twelve - Does require Guild with access to this buff

Doesn't stack with spell pen from items, same bonus type.

Next is the use of Enervation type abilities that reduce levels - Enervation, Level Drain, Symbol of Death and Circle of Death.

In theory, this should only work on drow mobs, since their SR is linked to character level, others should be static. No idea how it works actually.

[cdr]

30 is a nice even number to aim for.

20
+2 feat
+2 Greater feat
+3 enhance
+2 item
--
29 is as close as you're liable to get on a first life. Wiz/Fvs past lives help a ton obviously, freeing up feat/enhancement/item slots. 29 is enough to be effective against anything non-epic.

[tinyelvis]

Actually with Spell Pen a 1 isn't auto fail. As long as the total beats there SR you then get the DC check

Read my statement carefully, I never stated otherwise.

[tinyelvis]

Firstly, spell resistance is akin to +hit for melee. It's there so you can't solo more than you already can as a caster without a bit of gear/tring. Do we do partial damage on a hit fail? No, so it's the same.

Secondly, don't make it sound like melee are out to get you by not using dual shattermantles. They have their own effective weapons or, if a rogue, can easily assassinate casters better than you can.

Thirdly, it's a team game. Don't be so fiesty if the other 5 members of the group aren't going out of their way to cater to you.

I have read your stream of thought statements over a number of times. I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to write. You do understand don't you that spell resistance is a constant number? It does not get modified by a die roll. Is this where you are confused?

[shagath]

I have read your stream of thought statements over a number of times. I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to write.

Same here. Can't wrap my head around it.

[morticianjohn]

I recently soloed amrath on my PM and even with 30 spell pen and 40 necro DC I was generally using ice storm and sla attacks as wail and fod will drain your mana pretty quickly. Web can be great CC in these situations. My web DC is the same as my necro DC.

[MRMechMan]

Spell resistance is a horrible abomination thrust on the casting world. It has its roots in PnP play and dates back to some of the earliest convoluted incarnations of the game. Its a double jeapardy effect, essentially a shielding effect, against magic. The closest thing a melee has to it is fortification (however, that effect only applies to crits). Imagine the uproar if some tough trash mobs had a shielding effect that blocked say slash attack unless a slash penetration role was made, but I digress.

Spell resistance sucks because unless you completely overcome its effects, it will drastically reduce your efficiency. For example, take a trash mob who has a mere 1 in 20 chance to resist your spell (the least possible amount). Even if you only fail to land this spell 1 in 20 ( the best possible chance), your success rate will be cut down to landing in now 1 in 10. Lower DC and/or spell pen lead to even worse behavior. These effects grow multiplicatively when dealing with multiple foes. IT is total ****.

.

Wow. Casters are PLENTY powerful. SR is part of the game so get used to it. Personally, I like that there is something that seperates ungeared unTRed poorly built characters besides DCs. I've WORKED and GEARED and BUILT to seldom see a blue shield pop up. Getting rid of SR in general just makes every wizard that can scrape together a crafted greater necro focus item a killing machine. THere needs to be some control over casters power, and SR is it. I am of course biased because of the PLs I enjoy on my main char but I see the logic behind it...anyone shouldnt be able to just walk into Echrono and start fingering things.

There's a balance between spell pen and DCs...sometimes you might need to make a choice between more spell pen and higher DCs. That's a good thing-if only DCs mattered everywhere there would be no choices for casters; it would just be get DCs as high as possible, nothing else matters. Luckily SOMETHING does. I like when there is some debate over what feats to take. I also like how a wizard PL can help save you some feats taken.

Yea, it sucks that you see blue shields everywhere when you wail/ED/MHM but there are plenty of ways to solve those issues.

To the OP, it's doable to overcome elite amrath spell resistance on a first lifer but it does require multiple feats and a hefty chunk of enhancements. 30 spell pen and 40 DC are good starting points for being able to cast effectively in elite amrath...which in and of itself is a major task for a first lifer. Elite amrath have higher saves/SR than many epic mobs, so don't feel bad if you can't just walk in there and wail everything to bits. 32SP/42DC and you start crushing it a little bit. 34SP/44DC and you start hitting homeruns

Can't even imagine what 36SP/46+DC must feel like...

[Malky]

In theory, this should only work on drow mobs, since their SR is linked to character level, others should be static. No idea how it works actually.

Level drains themselves have a SR check as well.... means they're hardly useful on drows.
I think other mobs also have their SR related to their CR, i find the abishais in chrono easier to hold+necrotic ray once drained, it may be only a feeling but well.

[Darknark]

To start with, every first life Pale master should probably be an elf, and every end life PM an elf as well.

If this is sarcasm, you just made my day.

If not.......I`m speechless.

You do understand don't you that spell resistance is a constant number? It does not get modified by a die roll. Is this where you are confused?

Spell resistance (the number you have to `beat`) is a constant.

Your Spell penetration check, however, to beat SR is CL + 1d20 + modifiers (feats, PL, items, buffs)

I think you are confusing SR and Spell Pen, as well as misunderstanding how they work.

(Note: The quote is missing a bit of context, the poster was referring to another poster`s comparison of Spell Pen and To-hit, thus involving a die roll to determine if an effect occurs, leading me to believe the quoted `resistance` is actually `penetration`.)