LET'S TALK: The Shroud

[Uma-Quixote]

I bet you werent saying that before they nerfed it. but now that they changed it back to comfortable complacent autocompletion the rest of us should just shut up right?

LOL

It is one option.
As valid in its own way as any other solution.

[soulaeon]

The main problems with the Shroud are the lag spots, which most of us can demonstrate to the exact moment.
Other than that, the blades could use a reflex save that scales with the difficulty.

[Saravis]

The "fix" was a sledgehammer approach (typical), they should have simply reduced the damage on normal and kept the challenge in hard/elite.

[Ranncore]

I'm going to go ahead and try to revive a dead thread here. What do you guys think is more challenging - the Shroud on normal, for characters level 16-20, or Epic Chronoscope on normal, for characters 20+?

[msdesign]

I just think The Shroud is much harder than it should be, even being a Raid. And because of this:

Yesterday I did some Epic Hard runs on Red Fens with my guildies. They were all lvl 22~23 TRs with high end stuff, or at least, very experienced players. And me, with my level 20 TRd sorc air savant. We did those runs very smoothy, even with 1 death from me and another from one of the tanks, but very smooth runs.

Then we decided to do a Shroud run on Hard. Same team, added in more players. Full 12 player party with lots of lvl 22 and 23 players (when the Shroud in Hard is a lvl 18 adventure). We did all the parts with no problems. Then in the puzzles / blades, a few deaths, but we managed. When we got to the big devil boss, we started to die one by one. I was the frst one, I know I was probably the weakest member there, but the tanks kept on fighting and the other casters too. After a minute I start to see them drop dead and join me, until one of the most experienced players says, my guildie and party leader "ok its not going to happen, thanks all for the try".

We all dropped. Well, this was a level 18 adventure with level 23 players in (not simple toons, but fully equiped TRs). What went wrong? The only explanation for me, is the raid being ludicriously hard.

This was Hard setting, not elite, optimized for level 18 ~ 19 players...

[ZeebaNeighba]

I just think The Shroud is much harder than it should be, even being a Raid. And because of this:

Yesterday I did some Epic Hard runs on Red Fens with my guildies. They were all lvl 22~23 TRs with high end stuff, or at least, very experienced players. And me, with my level 20 TRd sorc air savant. We did those runs very smoothy, even with 1 death from me and another from one of the tanks, but very smooth runs.

Then we decided to do a Shroud run on Hard. Same team, added in more players. Full 12 player party with lots of lvl 22 and 23 players (when the Shroud in Hard is a lvl 18 adventure). We did all the parts with no problems. Then in the puzzles / blades, a few deaths, but we managed. When we got to the big devil boss, we started to die one by one. I was the frst one, I know I was probably the weakest member there, but the tanks kept on fighting and the other casters too. After a minute I start to see them drop dead and join me, until one of the most experienced players says, my guildie and party leader "ok its not going to happen, thanks all for the try".

We all dropped. Well, this was a level 18 adventure with level 23 players in (not simple toons, but fully equiped TRs). What went wrong? The only explanation for me, is the raid being ludicriously hard.

This was Hard setting, not elite, optimized for level 18 ~ 19 players...

Yes Shroud is extremely difficult to do on hard or elite at level for xp. I know some other raids are like this, like ADQ2, but whoa. Don't balance the Shroud for veteran level 20s which is kind of how it was for hard/elite, it's only a lv17 raid. Shroud elite is easily harder than VoD on hard or MA on normal even though they all should be level 19 raids. At least in my opinion. HoX on hard is easier too, provided that your group is on the same page.

[grgurius]

Nice necro.

As for other two post here, shroud is fine as it is atm, its epic raids that have borked difficulty.

[msdesign]

Yes Shroud is extremely difficult to do on hard or elite at level for xp.(...)

You read that the whole group I told you about was entirely made by lvl 22s and 23s TRd fully geared players? For a lvl 18 Raid? We got a wipe... I *think* that shouldn't happen.

We were NOT at level, we were 5 levels ABOVE the adventure...

[Dunklerlindwurm]

You read that the whole group I told you about was entirely made by lvl 22s and 23s TRd fully geared players? For a lvl 18 Raid? We got a wipe... I *think* that shouldn't happen.

We were NOT at level, we were 5 levels ABOVE the adventure...

And now it begins what we said in beta already

People run those super easy new "epic" difficulties and think they are good...but dont realize the quests are just super easy.

And then they complain that they cant complete the Heroic Raids that have not been changed at all.

Guess what we all completed shroud before there were level 21+ Charakters

[Carkolda]

And now it begins what we said in beta already

People run those super easy new "epic" difficulties and think they are good...but dont realize the quests are just super easy.

And then they complain that they cant complete the Heroic Raids that have not been changed at all.

Guess what we all completed shroud before there were level 21+ Charakters

Here's what you're missing: Proof against poison no longer works. So when you are getting hit by Harry with poison, you can guarantee that you are going to have deaths in very short order for 2 reasons:
- First, you have a guaranteed 5% chance to get borked (Because the strength of the toxin) because a 1 will nail you; it's a magical poison
- Second, you will have the healers getting all tied up because they are having to throw down more mass heals to cleanse people, or people are too busy chugging poison pots to throw a proper DPS on Harry, meaning a more long and drawn-out fight (meaning more strain on the healers and casters).

All in all, I believe it's the change they made to Proof Against Poison that's borked this raid.

[Nospheratus]

And now it begins what we said in beta already

People run those super easy new "epic" difficulties and think they are good...but dont realize the quests are just super easy.

And then they complain that they cant complete the Heroic Raids that have not been changed at all.

Guess what we all completed shroud before there were level 21+ Charakters

My opinion goes somewhere along these lines too...

Shroud was completed, mostly as it is right now, on elite when cap was 16, there were no artis, decent dr breakers were rare, etc. It was even solo-healed back then (with no pots i must add)...

Everything nowadays is simply too easy, and while that isn't necessarily bad, people complain shroud hard is dificult? Run it on normal...

Proof against poison not working is the cause for shroud to being too hard? Getting to 0 con doesn't even kill anymore.

[Carkolda]

Proof against poison not working is the cause for shroud to being too hard? Getting to 0 con doesn't even kill anymore.

Correct, except that you then are helpless, take extra damage, can't even chug a pot, and lose out on the DPS and (in the case of Part 4) if you die there's no coming back. That's where most Shrouds fail... not in part 5, but in part 4.

[Xynot2]

This thread assumes you are familiar with the Shroud and are aware of how it played before and after recent changes.

Designers had noticed that more often than not, players weren't completing all phases of the Shroud and in the spirit of 'making things better', it was decided that more incentive was called for. Loot changes were made. However, while he was 'in there', the designer felt compelled to fix a longstanding bug with the blades.

Controvery ensued.

It appears that we've taken what was a very pug friendly experience for pugs and changed it such that's it no longer - well - pug friendly.

I guess the question here is pretty straightforward: should we revert the changes to the blade section of the Shroud - perhaps just on Normal difficulty?

Some people like the shroud and dont like waiting 3 days to do it again and dont complete on purpose.
There is nothing in shroud that needs fixing. It's not shroud that's broken. It's the loot tables. With crafting and now the drops from u14, Greensteel just isnt that appealing any more. It's just like the items from GH TOR. I dont see many people doing it for anything other than flagging for Reaver's fate.

It's nice that we have new loot but no one has thought about what it would do to what was previously high end loot. It's even to the point that ToD, HoX and others are pointless to run except for favor.

Just my 2 cp.

[Chai]

My opinion goes somewhere along these lines too...

Shroud was completed, mostly as it is right now, on elite when cap was 16, there were no artis, decent dr breakers were rare, etc. It was even solo-healed back then (with no pots i must add)...

Everything nowadays is simply too easy, and while that isn't necessarily bad, people complain shroud hard is dificult? Run it on normal...

Proof against poison not working is the cause for shroud to being too hard? Getting to 0 con doesn't even kill anymore.

Youre right, it -IS- too easy.

People dont want it to be hard - even appropriately hard. They want to put up a group, not lead, and still complete. The blades doing applicable damage was not falling into that mindset. People actually had to use strategy, which required /gasp...communication.

These same individuals then make the claims that they dont like doing shroud any longer than they have to because they already did it a kazillion times in the past. They just want to invite the first 11 people and succeed without any further requirement. I then point out that they could do it on elite half as many times and get just as many larges. But dear mother of god, this requires strategy, so instead they prefer to do it twice as many times on normal, while sleeping through it on level 25s with full destinies. Now that they have easy normal in the bag, they are trying for an easier hard difficulty. Moar loot while still sleeping through the quest, cant explain that. /random Bill Oriley pic.

[Ranncore]

but do you think shroud is harder than epic ebberon raids? like say epic lailat or e-chrono normal. those are level 21 raids. i personally think shroud is harder. and yes, i think shroud is easy. bring back the blade damage.

it seems to me that they worked hard and a long time to get shroud to the appropriate difficulty - which means that if it is harder than echrono norm - it isnt the shroud thats broken.

[Chai]

but do you think shroud is harder than epic ebberon raids? like say epic lailat or e-chrono normal. those are level 21 raids. i personally think shroud is harder. and yes, i think shroud is easy. bring back the blade damage.

it seems to me that they worked hard and a long time to get shroud to the appropriate difficulty - which means that if it is harder than echrono norm - it isnt the shroud thats broken.

Yeap, exactly.

Notice that there was alot of talk about how shroud normal at level 17 was harder than TOD normal at level 20 in order to support nerfing shroud back to autocompletion.

Notice also the severe lack of the same statement being made with the epic normal raids. ENDQ, ENchrono, ENVON6, etc are easier than normal shroud, but higher level. Where are those same people who use that stance to justify shroud being a sleepwalk? /crickets chirping.

The answer of course is: too busy taking advantage of /autocompletion to comment.

[Loromir]

....Heroic Raids that have not been changed at all.

Well...that is an incorrect statement. I was rarely in a failed hard Shroud before U14. Now, Hard Shroud is extremely Difficult. Harry's Spell damage is much higher than before. I think I've been in one completion of Hard Shroud since U14.

[Fomori]

Hey Madfloyd since we are discussion the Shroud again, can you look at a little item called 'Yellow Dopant'...

Why oh why is this more elusive than the Eardweller ever was. Perhaps they simply need a dev nudge to bring more of them out of hiding... please...

[ZapperGhandi]

The blades went from doing very little damage to a very large amount of damage - and they key here is damage that is;
Large AOE,
Unevadable,
No to hit roll is is needed to take damage,
No save of any kind to reduce damage,
DR does not stop the blades.

Either the damage should be cut to halfway in between what it was before and now, or else some way of a character being able to avoid the damage should be added.

+1
This, give it a reflex save or something.

[Bowser_Koopa]

It's Bowser, and unless my eyes are deceiving me we are saying Shroud Hard is too hard?

Man this has to be a hoax to get people to post on here to feed a plumber..I mean troll.

But hey I'll try to take this seriously.....ish

As has been said before Harry is a R A I D B O S S he is supposed to be in the top tier of monsters in the game he is a Pit Fiend amongst Pit Fiends. Little pit fiends say mommy I wanna be like Harry when I grow up or maybe Horoth because well he's better but I digress.

My point is this and has been this for a long time every RAID BOSS in this game should have the capability of wiping a party or at the least killing several members of it. Harry finally after the nerf to his secret weapon a ring of deadly blades that apparently are now less sharp needed a lift apparently he got it in the form of being a better caster and his poison and disease ridden talons actually being somewhat of a threat versus characters who have poor saves. I can only hope that down the line turbine finally stands behind their creations and gives all raid bosses equal love and make them into the threats that only a group of Heroes can possibly through skill and a little bit of luck can possibly defeat.

My point is this Shroud Hard is not broken there are just a large group of people who for whatever reason have been spoiled into thinking every raid should have a greater than eighty percent completion rate and that dying in this game and wiping should not be allowed to happen at all. To those people I say this, you gathered all your gear and made your build to go out and face the best that Eberron/Forgotten Realms had to throw at you to test your skill and your groups skill against fantastic villains and terrible monsters. Don't let this game become full of speed-bump bosses and quests be the hero you came here to play.

Bowser,

Real hero's overcome challenges through determination, wits and heart not by complaining about it.