LET'S TALK: The Shroud

[sephiroth1084]

I would really like to know where this "it was easy and we always completed it with no resources (pots) used when it first came out" myth came from.

What myth?

I started playing DDO just when Shroud came out, so I was first running it at around 4 or 5 months after it was released. By that time, completions were at well over 80% success rate, and most decent groups were completing without any resource usage. Sure, some people were very well geared by that point from having been sitting at cap for a while, but that wasn't universally the case. It was more the case that, even the people that were first getting into range of The Shroud were making an effort to get some of the basic, important gear for running stuff like that (a DR-breaker, fortification, Con +6, etc...).

Mind you, we were completing this in 12-15 or 13-16 groups without any PrEs to speak of, without Cannith crafting, without TRs, without monks, favored souls or artificers, without airships, without Mass Heal, without the DDO store, and without many of the very powerful items that have been given to us in the past couple years in the 9-15 content.

The Shroud LFMs almost universally required 3 clerics (some good groups would run with just 1 or 2), 1-2 arcanes, and DPS. Sometimes a bard, if one could be found. Part 4 typically went 3 rounds, 2 in very good groups, 4-5 in mediocre groups, and anything beyond that was usually just a failure on life support. Occasionally, we'd have such an uber-DPS group that we would drop Harry in 1 round, just before he teleported away. Groups rarely stayed in through the blades, but that was dependent upon the healers and HP of the melees.

And remember, there were likely players at level 13 in those runs. Hell, I did a Shroud in those days when the chat channels were all screwed up and we had neither voice chat nor party chat and had to do all of the organizing and instructions using /say and /tells during the raid.

The game went F2P, the level cap went up, we got PrEs, stronger equipment, TRs, airship buffs, better spells...and PUGs started failing The Shroud more often. Why? because there was a huge influx of new players rocketing up to cap without taking the time to acquire DR breakers, HP, etc... Maybe it was because a larger community doesn't keep tabs on each of its members as closely, so if you were bad, you could get by okay. Or maybe it's because of dungeon scaling and casual difficulty making it easier for people to level without gear, and without learning?

Meanwhile, The Shroud remained relevant for everyone, vets and newbies alike, and became incredibly boring for long-time players who were no longer challenged in there, because everyone became more powerful, but the raid didn't change.

Normal Shroud isn't all that difficult now. It just requires a little bit of communication and strategy.

[Inkblack]

In quote.
Ink

This thread assumes you are familiar with the Shroud and are aware of how it played before and after recent changes.

Designers had noticed that more often than not, players weren't completing all phases of the Shroud and in the spirit of 'making things better', it was decided that more incentive was called for. Loot changes were made. However, while he was 'in there', the designer felt compelled to fix a longstanding bug with the blades.
What was the longstanding bug that was fixed? Honestly, I didn't mind the blades before, even when I had a low hp character in there, because they only hit me a few times. Play smart, choose when to get out (if necessary) and go. Now I feel like if I get near even a single blade I may get hit 10 times instantaneously, and I'll be dead before I even realize it's on top of me. I stopped running the shroud after a couple of failed runs, although I've started looking for groups again but there haven't been any LFM's for it when I've been looking.

Controvery ensued.

It appears that we've taken what was a very pug friendly experience for pugs and changed it such that's it no longer - well - pug friendly.

I guess the question here is pretty straightforward: should we revert the changes to the blade section of the Shroud - perhaps just on Normal difficulty?
I guess what I'm asking is, what exactly was changed? If they did a lot more damage but only hit as often as before, I'd be fine with that. It's getting hit with the blade aura 3-4 times in milli-seconds that really stinks.

[GermanicusMaximus]

The damage ramp up was well, warranted really.

Calling it a bugfix really gets me though..

Because what makes the blades challenging and annoying IS definetely a bug.

They can hit you up to 20 times in 1 second if you move along with them and have a certain runspeed.. With the natural instrict being to run away from them, for character with just the right movement speed, they just die.. 1000+ dmg in 1 second on elite, its pretty dumb. Or around 500+ on normal even..

Tweak them so they have a 0.5-1s cooldown on how often they can hit you, and hell even up the elite damage a bit.. then it would be fun. The massive spike 1000+ dmg your cant even react to isnt much fun.

It's just not fun to suddenly die in 300 millliseconds when your sitting at 1000 hp and 4 very fast healers are looking right at you cuz of bugs.. Fix that and it will be good again.

Shade, I certainly hope that you aren't talking about one of YOUR toons. My cleric (yes, my slow footed cleric) wearing 30% striders can outrun the blades. Last I checked, striders are standard recommended raid gear. I would expect anyone in part 4 to have a pair of striders, and be wearing them. Anything less simply isn't adequate preparation for a level 17 raid.

[Varashad]

I have no problem with the blades; if people pay attention, then even with lag they won't die.

With that said, people do not pay attention, so I nominate that the blades be given a reflex save. Give us a chance to save for half.

[gerardIII]

Surely people can adapt, but for new players those flying blades are already scary on their own. 20-30 like they used to do is enough on Normal.

[Hendrik]

I LOVE new Shroud and I personally prefer to run it on Hard.

However, I don't really care for the multi-hits from the blades. IF the multi-hits cannot be addressed, solution I prefer, then add a Reflex save for half damage. The save should scale for difficulty.

Shroud is a great learning experience. Helps promote teamwork and situational awareness. Both are needed if players are going to do any Raiding.

Shroud is back to 1-2 rounders, so the players HAVE adapted, met and overcame the change and learned from it. Most are better players from it.

[jkm]

This thread assumes you are familiar with the Shroud and are aware of how it played before and after recent changes.

Designers had noticed that more often than not, players weren't completing all phases of the Shroud and in the spirit of 'making things better', it was decided that more incentive was called for. Loot changes were made. However, while he was 'in there', the designer felt compelled to fix a longstanding bug with the blades.

Controvery ensued.

It appears that we've taken what was a very pug friendly experience for pugs and changed it such that's it no longer - well - pug friendly.

I guess the question here is pretty straightforward: should we revert the changes to the blade section of the Shroud - perhaps just on Normal difficulty?

MF, the blades can be the first step to fixing the problem with AC.

Give the blades a mid level attack roll of 40 or so to give a reason to have a 45+ AC

[jkm]

What myth?

I started playing DDO just when Shroud came out, so I was first running it at around 4 or 5 months after it was released. By that time, completions were at well over 80% success rate, and most decent groups were completing without any resource usage. Sure, some people were very well geared by that point from having been sitting at cap for a while, but that wasn't universally the case. It was more the case that, even the people that were first getting into range of The Shroud were making an effort to get some of the basic, important gear for running stuff like that (a DR-breaker, fortification, Con +6, etc...).

Mind you, we were completing this in 12-15 or 13-16 groups without any PrEs to speak of, without Cannith crafting, without TRs, without monks, favored souls or artificers, without airships, without Mass Heal, without the DDO store, and without many of the very powerful items that have been given to us in the past couple years in the 9-15 content.

The Shroud LFMs almost universally required 3 clerics (some good groups would run with just 1 or 2), 1-2 arcanes, and DPS. Sometimes a bard, if one could be found. Part 4 typically went 3 rounds, 2 in very good groups, 4-5 in mediocre groups, and anything beyond that was usually just a failure on life support. Occasionally, we'd have such an uber-DPS group that we would drop Harry in 1 round, just before he teleported away. Groups rarely stayed in through the blades, but that was dependent upon the healers and HP of the melees.

And remember, there were likely players at level 13 in those runs. Hell, I did a Shroud in those days when the chat channels were all screwed up and we had neither voice chat nor party chat and had to do all of the organizing and instructions using /say and /tells during the raid.

The game went F2P, the level cap went up, we got PrEs, stronger equipment, TRs, airship buffs, better spells...and PUGs started failing The Shroud more often. Why? because there was a huge influx of new players rocketing up to cap without taking the time to acquire DR breakers, HP, etc... Maybe it was because a larger community doesn't keep tabs on each of its members as closely, so if you were bad, you could get by okay. Or maybe it's because of dungeon scaling and casual difficulty making it easier for people to level without gear, and without learning?

Meanwhile, The Shroud remained relevant for everyone, vets and newbies alike, and became incredibly boring for long-time players who were no longer challenged in there, because everyone became more powerful, but the raid didn't change.

Normal Shroud isn't all that difficult now. It just requires a little bit of communication and strategy.

Yes, but you are leaving out the fact that transmuting was insanely powerful. It was a sad day when I had to vendor my +2 transmuting khopesh of GEOB .

[Ralmeth]

Personally, I like the extra challenge of the new blades, but I've also been playing for a long while. I recommend for the sake of the newer players that on normal the damage of the blades is reduced somewhat.

[dragons1ayer74]

I think the difficulty should be changed back at very least on normal. Greensteel is almost a requirement for end game and it should be as easy to get as it was last update for all players partaking in it.

[Gratan]

This thread assumes you are familiar with the Shroud and are aware of how it played before and after recent changes.

Designers had noticed that more often than not, players weren't completing all phases of the Shroud and in the spirit of 'making things better', it was decided that more incentive was called for. Loot changes were made. However, while he was 'in there', the designer felt compelled to fix a longstanding bug with the blades.

Controvery ensued.

It appears that we've taken what was a very pug friendly experience for pugs and changed it such that's it no longer - well - pug friendly.

I guess the question here is pretty straightforward: should we revert the changes to the blade section of the Shroud - perhaps just on Normal difficulty?

First, Yes there needed to be an insentive to complete on higher difficulties and i think the extra chests did the trick. I see shroud run on hard most every day and much more often on elite then it used to be. Now we just need to get the endreward guy to spawn in the quest so we can get an apropriate end reward for the difficulty we chose to do as well and it will be all good.

Second, The blade fix. Many complained when it was first changed but most have adapted. I pug shroud a lot and I do see some failures but most complete. I think this a good thing. People learn from failures and the next time they adapt and win. I would like to see some way for the players to reduce the amount of damage they take from the blades besides just watching them and avoiding them, which you just cant do sometimes. A reflex save for half seems most apropreate but then evasion give no damage for a save and i think that makes it too easy. Maybe make them illusionary and give a will save for half instead or have them do two types of damage(slashing which must go through dr and evil damage like pure good but evil instead).

Overall I think the changes were good but a little tweeking would make it better.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes, but you are leaving out the fact that transmuting was insanely powerful. It was a sad day when I had to vendor my +2 transmuting khopesh of GEOB .

More often than not, the transmuting weapons we had then were equal to or weaker than the DR breakers we have now. The bigger difference is that simply finding a Transmuting weapon was easier than finding a DR breaker now. Or was, before crafting.

Not many people had Transmuting of Greater Bane.
More often it was simply Transmuting, or Transmuting of Pure Good, which is the same as Metalline of PG now.

Making a +1 Silver whatever of Pure Good is not all that difficult. My crafting toon is up in the mid-40s on all 3 schools after only about a month of working on crafting, and he doesn't quest. The only gear he's crunching to level with is stuff I send via the shared bank. If I had decided to do crafting on a character I was actually playing, he'd probably be well upwards of level 60 in all 3 schools because I could crunch everything I looted instead of being limited to 20 or 30 things a day, mostly (can't be bothered to swap and unload the bank every few quests).

We also have several new named items dropping in pre-Shroud content that breaks DR.

[Fanatic_Guru]

Finding a difficulty level to please most everyone should be possible. Unlike most MMOs that are constantly struggling for the perfect difficulty level in a raid, DDO allows multiply difficulty levels which gives great design flexibility.

Normal should be designed for a normal group of 16 to 18 level first-life characters with average gear and average skill level. Normal should error on the side of being too easy for most groups.

Hard should be designed for exceptional 16 to 18 levels or those doing the quest over level. Groups of level 20s should typically be running Hard.

Elite should be for those exceptional players doing the quest over level. Elite should error on the side of being too difficult for most players.

Regardless of overall quest difficulty, if more people are dying to blades than to Harry there is a design flaw. Harry should be the most dangerous thing in the quest and should kill more people than anything else in the quest.

Players do not like dying to bad luck or things that negate all their hard won gear and character abilities.

The number of times a blade can hit you in a short time should be reduced to lower the risk of dying to bad luck. Any quest in the game should very rarely fail due to just random bad luck.

The blades should have some type of character ability defense. Probably a reflex save and DR.

I do like that you cannot just ignore the blades now but I do not like that the blades are the only thing I pay attention to in the quest now. Everything else is secondary. It is like a Mario game of dodge the blades.

[Flugzeug]

I want to say, first of all, thank you very much for creating this thread! It gives me some interest in coming back to DDO knowing that you are trying to communicate with the player base.

I heard about this thread from a guild mate who still plays, and so I'm here. Update 12's changes to shroud would be fine if lag didn't exist or if it was rare. Since lag has been getting worse with every update since update 8, Shroud became very hard even on normal. When update 12 first came out, I only needed one more completion on my monk before I could TR (to have another greensteel finished and cleansed). It took me 11 attempts to get just one completion. My guild is small, so doing guild runs wasn't possible. I have always used the LFM panel (by the way, DDO does this better than any other game). I love the LFM panel as it allows us to PUG very quickly and easily.

I actually told my guild mate that if I fail on the 11th attempt (which he joined trying to help me get it completed after 10 fails) I would delete all of my characters and never look back. After the 5th failed attempt I cancelled my VIP for the first time in 2 years. Don't get me wrong, I like challenge. I love the changes to Reavers Fate, Epic Chrono's Bloodplate. (I wish the end boss didn't have so many HP and take so long to beat down). I run epic chains of flame and whatnot, and those are fun. However, I don't like wasting my time with a Shroud wipe. I've already run shroud 100s of times and being in there for hours on end because the group failed really ruined the game.

If I want fun and enjoyment out of shroud I'll run it on hard or elite. If I choose normal it's because I want to get it done and out of the way. I haven't run shroud since early November, maybe I"ll log in and try it out. It sounds like groups have adapted and maybe it's easier to find a PUG for it. However, I will say this: Most of the people that would normally post in this thread saying the change was bad are already gone. They left to play another game and are no longer reading the forums. That's the case with me except a guild mate sent me an email about it.

It's been 6 or 7 weeks since update 12, so it looked like things would not be changing back, so that's why I say most people are probably gone if they really didn't like the changes.

If lag gets fixed, I'm all for having Shroud as hard as it is now for all difficulties. If lag doesn't get fixed, it's too much. On my monk, there were 2 or 3 runs where all of the healers died because they didn't know they were getting hit during lag. I would try to duo or trio harry after most of the group died. I would try to heal the others with heal scrolls while on my monk and it was very frustrating to go 5, 6, or 7 rounds and then to fail. I suppose I could switch to one of my healers and do it, but I wanted to TR my monk. I shouldn't have to be on a healer just to complete shroud. And no, healers are not overpowered, wing clipping wasn't needed. Maybe silver flame pots could be upgraded and made more powerful, that will "nerf" the healers.

BTW, I'm on Khyber in case that matters. I also lost about 1/3 of my level 62 guild due to people being unhappy with u11 and u12. So pugging is now even more important. Those people had been playing with me for more than a year, some 2 years. Maybe once things get straightened out and u13 or u14 is better we can all get back together and continue taking on Eberron. I have no problem with subscribing my VIP again as soon as the game becomes fun for me again.

[sephiroth1084]

Finding a difficulty level to please most everyone should be possible. Unlike most MMOs that are constantly struggling for the perfect difficulty level in a raid, DDO allows multiply difficulty levels which gives great design flexibility.

Normal should be designed for a normal group of 16 to 18 level first-life characters with average gear and average skill level. Normal should error on the side of being too easy for most groups.

Hard should be designed for exceptional 16 to 18 levels or those doing the quest over level. Groups of level 20s should typically be running Hard.

Elite should be for those exceptional players doing the quest over level. Elite should error on the side of being too difficult for most players.

Regardless of overall quest difficulty, if more people are dying to blades than to Harry there is a design flaw. Harry should be the most dangerous thing in the quest and should kill more people than anything else in the quest.

Players do not like dying to bad luck or things that negate all their hard won gear and character abilities.

The number of times a blade can hit you in a short time should be reduced to lower the risk of dying to bad luck. Any quest in the game should very rarely fail due to just random bad luck.

The blades should have some type of character ability defense. Probably a reflex save and DR.

I do like that you cannot just ignore the blades now but I do not like that the blades are the only thing I pay attention to in the quest now. Everything else is secondary. It is like a Mario game of dodge the blades.

Agree on all points.

Well said.

[Gadget2775]

At least on norm the blades shoould go back.

Why?
First Point: A full group of 20's with 3 actual Healers shouldn't be wiped as frequently as is happening. I've seen this in several situations, with good healers. Included was a run on my own capped Clonk. All three of us were running quicken with mass cures and we couldn't keep up with the blades damage. It just seems wrong that the blades can do that much damage on a normal run. ToD Hard isn't as likely to fail as a Shroud Norm, which says to me something is heavily skewed in the wrong direction.

Second Point: One angry caster can easily ruin the entire raid in part 4.
Insert Dancing ball to catch mobs, mix in symbol of death to weaken and top with Wail. Volia, Shroud Grief Cake served to the tune of 11 angry players.

Third Point: Lag happens. With the blades being as unforgiving a they are, it's just plain bad. I'd rank this up there with the Abbot puzzles for irritating lag induced failures. Especially with what appears to be DC induced lag. (One DC'ing player causes some/all of the other players to lag out until the DC resolves itself.)

[Aashrym]

At least on norm the blades shoould go back.

Why?
First Point: A full group of 20's with 3 actual Healers shouldn't be wiped as frequently as is happening. I've seen this in several situations, with good healers. Included was a run on my own capped Clonk. All three of us were running quicken with mass cures and we couldn't keep up with the blades damage. It just seems wrong that the blades can do that much damage on a normal run. ToD Hard isn't as likely to fail as a Shroud Norm, which says to me something is heavily skewed in the wrong direction.

Second Point: One angry caster can easily ruin the entire raid in part 4.
Insert Dancing ball to catch mobs, mix in symbol of death to weaken and top with Wail. Volia, Shroud Grief Cake served to the tune of 11 angry players.

Third Point: Lag happens. With the blades being as unforgiving a they are, it's just plain bad. I'd rank this up there with the Abbot puzzles for irritating lag induced failures. Especially with what appears to be DC induced lag. (One DC'ing player causes some/all of the other players to lag out until the DC resolves itself.)

I don't want the blades removed. I like the fact they require something other than the heal spam gang pile going on before.

Simply allowing evasion and or damage reduction with suitable DC's by difficulty level should resolve a lot of issues and possible some tweaking for the multiple hits that sometimes occur.

Lag would be a separate discussion as far as I am concerned and the general assumption I have is that it is looked at and worked on repeatedly regardless.

[Propane]

I like the fact the blades now mean something and glad they are back

I do think they are a little too sharp though...

Normal should be ~50% of now
Hards should be ~75% of now
Elite - keep it the same-

The updated endrewards list is much better - maybe a few less small and med ingredents - but it is crazy not to complete now (esp if you have a few alts flagged)

[2x4]

However, while he was 'in there', the designer felt compelled to fix a longstanding bug with the blades.

This pretty much sums it up. The blades fix was a decision made by 1, without prior consultation, potential problem analysis and/or testing in Lammania or other testing environment.


The intent was to make all of the changes to Shroud except the blade bug. I think as a community we deserve to see what that was supposed to be. This 1 person made a dramatic and drastic change that really hurt alot of players. (Not all)


To argue that we have adapted, or maybe they should be dialled down isn't really the point. There was a planned change to the Shroud that we did not receive.


I vote that we get what was originally intended. And then maybe a long time later and after another 3.5 years or so maybe, just maybe another change. But I would hope that 3.5 years from now the shroud will just be a low level stepping stone to many other quests and raids at higher levels on the other plains. That are there but not yet built.

Put the shroud the way it was intended without the blade bug fix. Let's see what was intended. We are owed at least that much.

[Chai]

Relative to the state of the game then and now, the Shroud was harder for the first year after release than it is now after blade damage was ramped up.

What I do not like aout this issue is it is many of the power gamers who are the ones complaining its too easy. Theres no reason to ramp up difficulty on a level 17 raid so that it challenges multi-TR capped epic geared players. Thats what epic LOB and other epic raids, present and future, should be for.

Normal difficulty should challenge first life toons, and inexperienced players.
Hard difficulty should challenge TRs and shouldnt be /auto complete.
Elite should challenge multi TR guild / channel groups regardless of level of gear.

I am all for how the end rewards scale for difficulty after the rework. Keep that up, and I think more people will try harder difficulties.