Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[Hilltrot]

Well... no...

Until gun powder came into use ranged was NOT the primary combat style or the decisive factor in the end result.
Any shield could save you from arrows and a lot of armors could really negate most of the damage that an arrow would inflict. Archers were the support group.

I still can't accept the concept that in DDO an archer can shoot unlimited arrows that each one does 2000-3000 hp damage in a crazy pace, doing more damage per second than any other melee class.

So if you are talking about the all human history before the 15th century you are not correct.

Last but not least who authorized you to speak for Chuck Norris? (and not even use caps when typing His name?)
Blasphemy should not be tolerated.

Sorry, about continuing to necro a 3-4 year old thread, but I had to stop this absurd misunderstanding of history.

Range weapons - especially the bow, have been key to the outcomes of many wars and battles.

Bows were key to the Assyrian empire. They were important to the English and their war with the French.

They were vital to the success of the Huns. The bow was primary. They were the primary weapon of the Mongols as well. They made mince meat of melee forces and the old style Roman legions.

You are right that it was not the most popular. Success with the bow required a lot of skill. Most armies didn't have the time or interest in building the skill which was necessary to use a bow effectively. Even the crossbow required quite a bit of skill to use effectively.

This is why guns changed warfare. You had the ability to give someone a missile weapon that would be effective with almost no training. Grab the farmers, hand them a gun and you got an "effective" fighting force. At least, more effective than the spear and shield you were handing them.

[TerysDethswind]

So many things contribute to the game difficulty and my opinion of it. First off, the tremendous variety that has been introduced into the game along with the addition of bravery bonuses have done wonders for killing the LFM board. One result of this is a smaller bracket of people allowed in groups to maintain the bravery bonus, and another is that a large percentage of groups that are posted are for the same few quests. The effect this has, is a lot of soloed quests. This makes hirelings semi-important for some classes, which, although the have always been terrible to rely on, now are virtually worthless. I cannot even begin to count how many times I have stood next to my hireling as it refuses to heal itself or my character without me directing it to manually. This has become especially true since the update that "fixed" hirelings with the addition of the selectable power commands. In game purchasable healing pots are so ineffective as to be worthless, with the ones tradable by collectors marginally better. The result, of course, is the need to buy healing pots that actually can heal you from the in game store, which is most likely by design to allow Turbine to make money. While I understand the need to make money, and had little issue with this in the past, the addition of Champions has made the issue much more pronounced. And not the occasional champion, but hordes of champions with their champion bosses and lets not forget, should a rune be hanging about next to some barrels and boxes those will be champion constructs as well. On a side note, I am really curious as to how said box received the training and experience to become an ultra-powerful box to carry on the proud tradition of boxes everywhere. Adding champions with the same rules as the bravery bonus in order to procure anything back, further strengthens the difficulties in finding an LFM as well. Don't get me wrong, the couple champions I saw provided excitement, and they have the propensity to offer a surprise in an otherwise completely known dungeon, but the commonality of them precludes them from actually being champions, and more along the lines of just making the entire dungeon more difficult. Now when I see a champion, I don't get excited, I simply think "there goes Turbine trying to suck more money out of me in pots".
Another contributor to game difficulty that irritates me beyond belief, is the few areas that alter how the actual controls function, whether by design or by flaw I do not know. I play with a joystick and particular levels, such as protecting Baudy Cartemon box and Lines of Supply, alter the way the game is playable. In Baudy Cartemon, the kobolds go back and forth from targetable to un-targetable with the controller. In Lines of Supply, no issues exist with the security elements of the convoys, however, the carriers are un-targetable and I have to use the mouse. If this is by design, it seems a poor way to produce more in game difficulty by hobbling the controls for it. If by flaw, it would be nice if that could be fixed.
As to the actual difficulty levels of the quests, there is tremendous variation between difficulties. The game states that a quest is considered two levels higher than it is on normal, yet everything in the quest is far more than two levels above what they are on normal. Perhaps a more honest system would be to label them as they actually are, such as Devil's Assault in the heroic tier 6/12/18, and to offer rewards and experience accordingly. It makes little sense to me that some quests are far simpler on epic normal than they are on heroic elite, the Spinner of Shadows comes to mind as an example.
To say that the devs have been slightly guilty of courting the "uber-players" is disingenuous, all the focus of this game in the last two years has been geared towards the uber-players. My wife used to play with me, which I enjoyed, however the game drove her away due to the afore-mentioned reasons. I have had several friends leave as well. New players get left in the dirt by the geared out toons of elitists, and slaughtered by the champion hordes.

[Bladebolt]

I haven't done a heroic TR and I have spend too little time on heroic levels, so I will only talk about epic.
Epic IS EASY!
Yes I know there are people complaining about how "hard" it is etc. but so what? Is it bad to get challenged?
I don't know anybody that left because the game got "too hard".

Back when cap was lvl 20, soloing epics was not a usual thing.
You needed a party of people who knew how to play their role and finishing an epic quest gave you a feeling of satisfaction, knowing that what you just did was a well performed difficult team work.

For me game should go back to that model.
You should need a trapper, a healer , a caster, a melee dps and a tank in order to do EH and all the previous specialties in the form of really experienced players to do EE.
Of course this would mean raising the base xp of the quests.

Which by the way is one of the main problems and the reason that a lot of people are leaving the game.
How many times to you have to run EVON 3, SPIES IN THE HOUSE and WIZ KING?
Some EVON 5s, and a little EVON 2 and 2-3 more quests now and then.
How many people are wiling to get 72 million XP doing the same 3-4 quests?
Farming has become the essence of DDO.
So for me the HARDEST part of DDO is repeating the same quests over and over and over because you can't play all day and you need to keep up.

Give more XP to more quests.
Make them more "difficult" if needed.
Make variety a viable choice!
It is good to add more quests but who will play them if they last 40 minutes and they give you half the xp that a 15 minutes run of the usual will give you?
Why should I have to chose between getting XP and variety?
How hard is it to have more quests with decent xp?

Once you balance the XP/variety factor,
get the EE difficulty to non-soloable by everyone
and EH to "Help needed"
then for me you will have the game back on track.

The "Game Difficulty" conversation is missing the point.
It doesn't matter how hard a quest is,
what matters is if you get REWARDED for the time and the effort!

[Yehediah]

How many times to you have to run EVON 3, SPIES IN THE HOUSE and WIZ KING?
Some EVON 5s, and a little EVON 2 and 2-3 more quests now and then.
How many people are wiling to get 72 million XP doing the same 3-4 quests?
Farming has become the essence of DDO.

That's the basic flaw with your argument. WHY do they farm those instead of doing quests that are "harder" - there are some out there. Simple, because they are EASY and give lots of XP. The "more challenge" argument is almost always built based on the most favored quests being run ad nauseum instead of based on the whole of the game.

Failing a quest is a waste of time. Ergo, hard quests are not done without really big payoffs. And even then, people will find a way to make it easier or refuse to go on with those they think can't succeed easily.

So, what people want is not so much a challenge as much as an incentive. Challenge is important, but secondary even though it makes them feel "uber" to say it's most important. ;-)

DDO has tried to give an incentive in XP to do different quests each day - but, it's easy enough to do your 4-5 favorites in one day and repeat the next. Maybe instead, they ought to degrade the base XP for the "best" (most run) quests and increase for the least run - slowly over time.

Now, it would take more time, but "balancing" the quests out a bit is also helpful. Some of the least run quests are pretty hard or at least expensive in time/resources) to run. Remove a few mobs from key spots. Reverse for the easier/popular runs. Add a few mobs at a few key places. Now that'd be a fun little tweak to have things not always be as expected with the occasional surprise.

Also, the newest quests tend to be harder as they are built with the understanding of a challenge for those that already have everything. That's fine, but if they'd give a reason to run all the quests over time, you'd find that some are not as easy as you thought - mainly because you don't know them as well.

[Bladebolt]

That's the basic flaw with your argument. WHY do they farm those instead of doing quests that are "harder" - there are some out there. Simple, because they are EASY and give lots of XP. The "more challenge" argument is almost always built based on the most favored quests being run ad nauseum instead of based on the whole of the game.

Failing a quest is a waste of time. Ergo, hard quests are not done without really big payoffs. And even then, people will find a way to make it easier or refuse to go on with those they think can't succeed easily.

So, what people want is not so much a challenge as much as an incentive. Challenge is important, but secondary even though it makes them feel "uber" to say it's most important. ;-)

DDO has tried to give an incentive in XP to do different quests each day - but, it's easy enough to do your 4-5 favorites in one day and repeat the next. Maybe instead, they ought to degrade the base XP for the "best" (most run) quests and increase for the least run - slowly over time.

Now, it would take more time, but "balancing" the quests out a bit is also helpful. Some of the least run quests are pretty hard or at least expensive in time/resources) to run. Remove a few mobs from key spots. Reverse for the easier/popular runs. Add a few mobs at a few key places. Now that'd be a fun little tweak to have things not always be as expected with the occasional surprise.

Also, the newest quests tend to be harder as they are built with the understanding of a challenge for those that already have everything. That's fine, but if they'd give a reason to run all the quests over time, you'd find that some are not as easy as you thought - mainly because you don't know them as well.

Well.. I don't understand what the flaw is... I didn't just ask for challenge. I asked for better balance between difficulty and XP.
I can't really see where you disagree.

[Hafeal]

Well.. I don't understand what the flaw is...

You been on this account since at least 2010. You come to a thread started in 2011. By a dev no longer with the game. And you keep wanting to necro this thread. Yea, I can see what is not understood.

[esojiul]

My first thought is class balance actually plays into this. Difficult for one class is not difficult for another.

My preference is that I expect normal to not be challenging for an over-leveled group, elite to have a risk of failure and no guarantee for success.

I will get a more detailed reply when I have more time.

I agree. But i will like to see one more level: Legend or Mythic level (Same went cap was lv 20-1 level of epic) it at level 38 for all epic quests. Is the more than elite (no guarantee for success.) But: More champions, traps really deadly, mob do more dmg (not more hp). Force a party work together, using a tank, healer etc etc.
And gear can be upgrade to MYTHIC standard. Basic all the effects are upgrade to it limits.

If the Epic levels, is going to stay in lv 30. I recommend putting the foundation for Demigod level and gear.
Where you have a limit effects and dmg on weapons. and have different benefits of each weapon, but same dmg. We can upgrade all epic items:
Example:
Demigod Sword of Shadow, only for player lv 30:
• Damage: 4(2d6)+12 and what make it special Critical 18% (45-120) 17-20x3
• Metalline
• 2 purple slot
To craft a Demigod Weapon required ingredient from many raids, depend on the item, example 5000 commendation heroism, 5000 token, 1000 raid token, 1000 ingot from death Wyrn, item lord of blade etc etc. Special ingredient is sword of shadow soul, drop from demigod level of VON 6.
Upgrade the effect of all the epic gear that can be useful at high level content. DC 35 in epic telekinesis in epic sirocco it a joke, make it decent. Make it demigod sirocco with demigod telekinesis dc 75, if you want put an aleatory restriction like works 50% chance. Or demigod Vorpal put restriction of dc to instead kill a mob, based on str.

[Bladebolt]

You been on this account since at least 2010. You come to a thread started in 2011. By a dev no longer with the game. And you keep wanting to necro this thread. Yea, I can see what is not understood.

1. I have the account since 2010 but that does not mean that I do this for a living. I haven't really joined the forums since a few months ago. Does that means I should not post in the forums? They are for experts only?

2. If a thread is dead, close it, remove it. That's what moderators are for. I saw something that interests me and posted... sorry for that.

3. Why do I want to necro this thread? Since English is not my native tongue I don't understand how you come to this conclusion.

If people who are in the players council have your kind of attitude that explains a lot.

[redoubt]

1. Set your target audience (numbers used are an example)

Elite: 25% of quests completed
Hard: 25% of quests completed (thus 50% at hard and above)
Normal: 25% of quests completed (75% normal and above)
Casual: 25% of quests completed (100%)

2. Look at quest completion data

3. Scale difficulties to meet the target.

Notes:
1. Minimum separation should be heroic versus epic.
2. Additional separation of scaling categories might be 1-10, 11-20, epic. something like that.

[festasha]

I agree. But i will like to see one more level: Legend or Mythic level (Same went cap was lv 20-1 level of epic) it at level 38 for all epic quests. Is the more than elite (no guarantee for success.) But: More champions, traps really deadly, mob do more dmg (not more hp). Force a party work together, using a tank, healer etc etc.
And gear can be upgrade to MYTHIC standard. Basic all the effects are upgrade to it limits.

If the Epic levels, is going to stay in lv 30. I recommend putting the foundation for Demigod level and gear.
Where you have a limit effects and dmg on weapons. and have different benefits of each weapon, but same dmg. We can upgrade all epic items:
Example:
Demigod Sword of Shadow, only for player lv 30:
• Damage: 4(2d6)+12 and what make it special Critical 18% (45-120) 17-20x3
• Metalline
• 2 purple slot
To craft a Demigod Weapon required ingredient from many raids, depend on the item, example 5000 commendation heroism, 5000 token, 1000 raid token, 1000 ingot from death Wyrn, item lord of blade etc etc. Special ingredient is sword of shadow soul, drop from demigod level of VON 6.
Upgrade the effect of all the epic gear that can be useful at high level content. DC 35 in epic telekinesis in epic sirocco it a joke, make it decent. Make it demigod sirocco with demigod telekinesis dc 75, if you want put an aleatory restriction like works 50% chance. Or demigod Vorpal put restriction of dc to instead kill a mob, based on str.

Really like this idea. The game should be getting more from the content that's available and older raids and content should get more action this is why I'm guessing some raids have been epic'd. There should be more reasons to run older content at level although some of the loots could do with updating. Who knows maybe this will make some packs more appealing for people to buy.

[Ellihor]

On this new mythic difficulty, make it acessible for only capped people. Also make it so hard that it forces you to get teamwork, cc, healer, tank, etc AKA focused roles. If you don't wanna wait for that, than simply don't play mythic. It is that simple. It is what epic elite should have been, but you destroyed it when you "democratized" it.

But, we have another problem with that: by making stuff harder, the ones who wil feel it more will be casters (cc and healing), so the result will not be a variety of roles but people accepting only dps in the parties. So you have to fix that FIRST. An easy and effective start would be rollback the u18 enhancement pass, and armors up pass. The work is done already (unless you deleted it), you only have to create trees for the warlocks and iconics. Also, destroy champions. They only contribute to focus the game even more on dps one pingeon role.

[Impaqt]

On this new mythic difficulty, make it acessible for only capped people. Also make it so hard that it forces you to get teamwork, cc, healer, tank, etc AKA focused roles. If you don't wanna wait for that, than simply don't play mythic. It is that simple. It is what epic elite should have been, but you destroyed it when you "democratized" it.

But, we have another problem with that: by making stuff harder, the ones who wil feel it more will be casters (cc and healing), so the result will not be a variety of roles but people accepting only dps in the parties. So you have to fix that FIRST. An easy and effective start would be rollback the u18 enhancement pass, and armors up pass. The work is done already (unless you deleted it), you only have to create trees for the warlocks and iconics. Also, destroy champions. They only contribute to focus the game even more on dps one pingeon role.

YES! Lets just Roll the whole game back to Update 1!

[DDOKillingMachine]

YES! Lets just Roll the whole game back to Update 1!

And start over again trying to get it right this time? Okay. Works for me. Short of starting completely over again with the very first line of code, this would be the best way to go about fixing the game. Roll allllllll the way back, crack open the pnp books, and build it right this time.

[esojiul]

On this new mythic difficulty, make it acessible for only capped people. Also make it so hard that it forces you to get teamwork, cc, healer, tank, etc AKA focused roles. If you don't wanna wait for that, than simply don't play mythic. It is that simple. It is what epic elite should have been, but you destroyed it when you "democratized" it.

But, we have another problem with that: by making stuff harder, the ones who wil feel it more will be casters (cc and healing), so the result will not be a variety of roles but people accepting only dps in the parties. So you have to fix that FIRST. An easy and effective start would be rollback the u18 enhancement pass, and armors up pass. The work is done already (unless you deleted it), you only have to create trees for the warlocks and iconics. Also, destroy champions. They only contribute to focus the game even more on dps one pingeon role.

It will be impossible to do that. Many ppl who are happy with their builds will leave the game. then ppl will start crying about not able to find players for grp.

The reason of a mythic level, for the segment of the player who want a challange (it true democratized-but i dont see step back-most of the quest ee below 28, in theory, player over ee level suspose to be able to solo it example a barbarian level 28 on a ee at level 23) . And if you dont like champions, put them only on mythic levels. About you conclusion, of dps, it wrong, before the expasion they where dps, the reason you requeried tanks for quest like tod is because they cannot take the amount of dmg as a tank. And dps (damge per second) depends on how good your build is, if you are still learning the rules, you have from lv 20-28quest a chose from en to ee.

[Ellihor]

It will be impossible to do that. Many ppl who are happy with their builds will leave the game. then ppl will start crying about not able to find players for grp.

This wouldn't happen. If you implement these mechanics people would want to group more, so there would be more groups. And groups would only be needed for mythic, if they don't want to wait, just play other difficulty.

The reason of a mythic level, for the segment of the player who want a challange (it true democratized-but i dont see step back-most of the quest ee below 28, in theory, player over ee level suspose to be able to solo it example a barbarian level 28 on a ee at level 23)

Incorrect. Me and people I see on my server at least do epic elite all the way from 21 to 27. Most people don't even spend more than 5 minutes at 28 (or wathever the time they need o get seeds if they don't have hearts).

And if you dont like champions, put them only on mythic levels.

The problem with champions are the blanket immunites some of them have (started really with ToEE). Remove that and it's fine. But what's the point of champions anyways? Just buff every mob to make things a challenge, instead of a % of mobs.

About you conclusion, of dps, it wrong, before the expasion they where dps, the reason you requeried tanks for quest like tod is because they cannot take the amount of dmg as a tank. And dps (damge per second) depends on how good your build is, if you are still learning the rules, you have from lv 20-28quest a chose from en to ee.

This last part of your reply was kinda obscure, I didn't understand what you wanted to say here. Probably a lack of syntax. And when I said DPS i was refering to non magical damage focused builds, and magical damage focused builds that are not DC focused or that doesn't use spell points for that damage (namely warlocks), I was excepting I didn't have to explain that.

[Ellihor]

YES! Lets just Roll the whole game back to Update 1!

They should really create another game called DDO2 and as the other dude said, do it right this time. Don't go far from the PnP 3.5 rules. That's why most people loved this game to start with.

[Bennum]

For me only EE is too difficult generally, none of my characters have ever been able to hold their own there. The closest I came to EE viable was on my Rogue who can kill well enough but she goes down in two hits. In my mind I have relegated EE to the uber crowd and given up on it. Maybe some day but not today, it does annoy me that all it seems people like to run is EE in Epic though and I have to explain alot why I have to pass when I get tells. Honestly it makes me prefer heroic gameplay where I can contribute.

[esojiul]

"This wouldn't happen. If you implement these mechanics people would want to group more, so there would be more groups. And groups would only be needed for mythic, if they don't want to wait, just play other difficulty".

Are you serious, you know wat happen, if many ppl thar are happy with their rogues, paladin, bards, etc not longer able to use them. those classes werent popular before updated 18. they will stay on the game?.

"Incorrect. Me and people I see on my server at least do epic elite all the way from 21 to 27. Most people don't even spend more than 5 minutes at 28 (or wathever the time they need o get seeds if they don't have hearts)."

Read the forum, and you will find 2 groups. People that say the game is too easy and other they cannot handle EE. The people that are saying that the game it easy are the one that are leaving. Because there is not end content and can solo they are bored of soling the quest.


"The problem with champions are the blanket immunites some of them have (started really with ToEE). Remove that and it's fine. But what's the point of champions anyways? Just buff every mob to make things a challenge, instead of a % of mobs".

I play yesterday EE Toee with a toon lv 22, was ok. Actually not so tough. Went i use my complesionist at level 28, it not a challange.


"This last part of your reply was kinda obscure, I didn't understand what you wanted to say here. Probably a lack of syntax. And when I said DPS i was refering to non magical damage focused builds, and magical damage focused builds that are not DC focused or that doesn't use spell points for that damage (namely warlocks), I was excepting I didn't have to explain that.


IF YOU CANNOT DO A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DAMAGE PER SECOND, you have a bad build. but my point high content required to have other types of build like cc, healer, trapeer etc etc.

[Ellihor]

Are you serious, you know wat happen, if many ppl thar are happy with their rogues, paladin, bards, etc not longer able to use them. those classes werent popular before updated 18. they will stay on the game?.

Yes, they will. We havee been buffing and buffing stuff and the result is that it hasn't helped to make people log. Should try the other way, obviously. Anyways, before u18 rogues were already the best mlee DPS, paladin was the best fully self suficient mlee DPS (I had a Pyrenne build at those days and it was a blast), bards wasn't that bad as well and barbs now have sacred ground. "No longer able to use them" is a completly stupid argument.

Read the forum, and you will find 2 groups. People that say the game is too easy and other they cannot handle EE. The people that are saying that the game it easy are the one that are leaving. Because there is not end content and can solo they are bored of soling the quest.

I was talking about the part you said that people at cap run lv 23 stuff.

I play yesterday EE Toee with a toon lv 22, was ok. Actually not so tough. Went i use my complesionist at level 28, it not a challange.

I didn't say it was a challenge. I said it was a problem to DC casters, and the DC caster issue is married to the game difficulty issue. My suggestion was to make all mobs harder instead of buff some individuals, because the latter just doesn't make any sense.

IF YOU CANNOT DO A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DAMAGE PER SECOND, you have a bad build. but my point high content required to have other types of build like cc, healer, trapeer etc etc.

Got it. You did'nt understand my post in the first place and that was the confusion. As I said, when I was talking about DPS, I was refering to "[...]non magical damage focused builds, and magical damage focused builds that are not DC focused or that doesn't use spell points for that damage (namely warlocks), I was excepting I didn't have to explain that" instead of damage per second.

[esojiul]

"Yes, they will. We havee been buffing and buffing stuff and the result is that it hasn't helped to make people log. Should try the other way, obviously. Anyways, before u18 rogues were already the best mlee DPS, paladin was the best fully self suficient mlee DPS (I had a Pyrenne build at those days and it was a blast), bards wasn't that bad as well and barbs now have sacred ground. "No longer able to use them" is a completly stupid argument."


I think you are talking for minority, rogue wast the best dps, was barbarian. Paladin whre use only as tanks, noone play bard. those days people complain about melee were trash, caster where the best builds on the game. firewall, instead kills CC, etcetc. And your argument to go back to update 18, is also stupid you havent even consider the technical aspect of doing it.

"I was talking about the part you said that people at cap run lv 23 stuff."

. You think people are happy running a lv23 quest at lv 28?. 5 levels of difference, in theory players supose to be solo the quest.

"I didn't say it was a challenge. I said it was a problem to DC casters, and the DC caster issue is married to the game difficulty issue. My suggestion was to make all mobs harder instead of buff some individuals, because the latter just doesn't make any sense".

1) My advice leave difficults EN-EH-EE, maybe take out champions from EN-EH. At the same time recycle quest for end content quest (mythical-level 34) where make all mobs harder instead and buff some individuals. so ppl are learning the game can progress and ppl full gear etc etc, can have their challange.


2)About Caster That another subject, but i agree, DC 70+% on EE or any level it crazy. The number has to be at around 60. it kills many builds except for wizards. For a mythical level: They buff champions with death wards and fom on mythical levels. if there is a wizards with a dc over 70, great for them, i dont cry if some else has a uber build. just for balance game.

3) you can play again: TOD MA LOB abbot etc etc if they become part of the end content and other quests.

Got it. You did'nt understand my post in the first place and that was the confusion. As I said, when I was talking about DPS, I was refering to "[...]non magical damage focused builds, and magical damage focused builds that are not DC focused or that doesn't use spell points for that damage (namely warlocks), I was excepting I didn't have to explain that" instead of damage per second.