Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[sirgog]

Thanks for supporting my point. Not only it seems are these raids being skewed in their difficulty, finding groups to run them on elite at level is even harder.

Again, Bravery Penalty should removed from raids.

There is no bravery penalty in the game. There is a totally optional bonus you can achieve if you choose to run elite at-level. If you don't want to run those settings, then you are more than free to level up the way players did before bravery streaks and will not be at any disadvantage. Or you can run, say, Hard VON5 with a 10-13 group or Normal Shroud with a 17-20 and maintain your Elite streak.

Bravery is the ONLY reason at-level elite VON5, Twilight Forge and Reaver really ever get run. Remove the Bravery bonus, and we are back to VON5 elite groups bringing in 14s and 15s because the 10-25% loss of base XP is more than offset by the speedier completion. And then we are back to 'why should I spend 40 minutes in VON5 for 20k XP when I can get more doing Wiz-King runs #10, 11 and 12 - this would be the absolute death of at-level raiding. I'd bet there's a lot more '16 down' elite Reavers now than there were '17 down' elite Reavers pre-U11.

The Subterrane raids are the only raids pre-20s often run that you cannot 'cheat' the bonus on by having overlevel toons. But by this stage of levelling, elite streakers have usually fallen back to their Hard streak as XP/min is much better that way. Unless they have something to prove, in which case they should be running the Sub-T raids on Elite.

[sirgog]

i realize many players ditch their characters around level 12
so, somehow level 12 is the hard point...

quests start easy and become harder... till the point of reaching a brick...
then from level 14 to 17 they are "easy again" and you can reach lvl 20 doing shroud or some inspired quartier which give less xp, are more harder and "boring" for the inflated monsters hp but still doable...


probably the problem around lvl 12 is that quests lvl 8-9-10 are too hard, or raids...

von series is the most "easy" despite having a regenerating troll with perma lock + ally who regenerate and heal that makes groups with low dps awful

von 2 has been modified and now despite beholder presence is more doable

von 3 is doable... the marut at end may be a problem but it seems his regeneration rate is worse than von 1 sidekick troll shaman

von 4 is doable

von 5 should be split from von 6 (and adq1 from adq2)
------------------

threnal chain should be reworked a bit...

low xp, boring quests... (funny when you clear the path to reach the guy suddenly monsters repops and he can't simply cast a ddoor... but has masochistic suicidal tendencies to just get killed and make you fail and waste time)

also the fight in the library with coyle could be improved a bit... giving coyle at least the prowless and skill of an hireling... (like those guys in standing your ground in the tavern of sharn syndicate.. they do their part)
if coyle could have some defensive spells to survive better, boost the party that could help making the quest less frustrating.

compare also rewards of delera to those of threnal and based on that comparison boost reward of threnal to put them on pair with delera's... why i always see more lfm of deleras instead of threnal ?

cause threnal needs a rework ! (as you did with gladewatch defence lvl 6 free quest, you made it less frustrating btw if you can make it more as the lvl 19 shavarath quest... a quest long 10min max but with strong waves of monsters...)

The thing with 8-12 is that much of that content was designed when the level cap was 10, had been 10 for a while, and so was designed to be challenging for veteran players. The Devs did not hold back at all - VON3, Dreams of Insanity and Invaders in particular are just full of rooms that were designed to wipe parties. Rednamed Beholders with other minions before Silver Flame necklaces, spammed Dispels alongside Ice Flensers and Fire Reavers, etc.

A while back Waterworks was raised in level to clarify to players that it was harder than its level indicates. This really should be done to the pre-Desert level 10-ish content. Normal Dreams of Insanity will slaughter players that trounce Elite Trial by Fire. IMO Dreams would make a perfect level 14 or 15 'Extreme Challenge' quest with no further changes. The whole VON chain as well - just because us veterans have found approaches to easily speedrun a quest like VON3 doesn't mean it it not difficult. We just metagame around our extensive prior knowledge of the quest to trivialise difficult encounters.

[Ungood]

There is no bravery penalty in the game.

Sure there is, if I do a raid on normal it breaks my streak. And since these raids have all be jacked up on "I'm 20th level I should be Catered to", Steroids, Turbine should Remove that Penalty.

this would be the absolute death of at-level raiding.

I see you missed the memo. At level raiding was killed a long time ago when all the 20th level players started making a fuss they should still be challenged by a 14th level raid.

Make the raids back to the level appropriate, sure, but now that Turbine bucked like a wet magic card, they should remove the Bravery Penalty from Raids.

[sirgog]

Sure there is, if I do a raid on normal it breaks my streak. And since these raids have all be jacked up I'm 20th level I should be Catered to, Steroids, Turbine should Remove that Penalty.

And you still end up with more XP than you would have had before the bravery bonus came in, and except for VON6, you will have more total XP after rebuilding your streak than you would have if you never broke it.

I see a LOT of VON5 elite at-level runs now. Likewise Reaver (less of them because Crucible is so hard on Elite). Pre-U11 you never saw these happen unless it was a forum-organised special event.

Removing Bravery would make sure that we went back to those days. Hell I remember how hard it was to get a group to do the Titan pre-raid elite for favor - it took me 10 or so tries to get a group for that. Now I see 11-13 LFMs up around once a week.

[Ungood]

And you still end up with more XP than you would have had before the bravery bonus came in, and except for VON6, you will have more total XP after rebuilding your streak than you would have if you never broke it.

Umm. I see you missed my point totally. I am not asking that Bravery Bonus be removed, I am demanding that raids not break streak.

I am all for them adding to the streak. In fact, more power to people who can do them at level. but when you have raids, like VoN6 that have been dorked with too infinity to placate capped toons they should not break the streak of the players who are trying to do them at level and realizing they can't because. oh right, they have been dorked with!

Like VoN6 for example. Yah, I get it, VoN6 needs to fun for 20's who need to farm it for loot, but right now, at level, when I am trying to do this raid, have it so if we end up doing this raid on hard or even normal, just to get it done, it does not shaft our current streak.

It's a pretty simple idea, again: Have Raids not break streak.

Having them add to streak is fine.

[sweez]

Like VoN6 for example. Yah, I get it, VoN6 needs to fun for 20's who need to farm it for loot, but right now, at level, when I am trying to do this raid, have it so if we end up doing this raid on hard or even normal, just to get it done, it does not shaft our current streak.

Huh, are you saying that elite von6 caters to level 20 toons difficulty-wise? Elite Shroud, sure, elite Abbot, definitely, but cmon, von6?

[Ungood]

Huh, are you saying that elite von6 caters to level 20 toons difficulty-wise? Elite Shroud, sure, elite Abbot, definitely, but cmon, von6?

Don't take my word for it, Go try yourself with at level toons. Show me the screen shot.

[sirgog]

Don't take my word for it, Go try yourself with at level toons. Show me the screen shot.

Didn't screenshot it last life as I didn't feel a 10-12 elite VON6 was an accomplishment.

Velah does hit insanely hard, but she dies so fast that you can just manadump heal through it. Sub 20k HP too, so if you have a caster with Quicken or a ranger with Manyshot or an Arti with Endless Fullisade they can knock off half her HP solo. VON4 elite was much more difficult than VON6 even though the death count in VON6 was not low.

[sweez]

Don't take my word for it, Go try yourself with at level toons. Show me the screen shot.

Um, I did complete an elite von5-6 run about 2 months ago, full BB applied. She lived through 1 breath afaik, and we 11-manned it after someone dropped because he was dying in the traps in von5 repeatedly and came to the conclusion that elite von5 at level is 'impossible'. I didn't take a screenshot because if someone told me at that time that it was an accomplishment worth of screenshoting, I'd have LOL'd. Any decently geared level 12 can solo a base (gimps can guard home base ), and on Velah just choose as many 'tanks' as you have healers and single heal them while everyone else takes pot-shots.

Anyway, any 20 should be able to solo elite von6 without much issue were it not for the need to drop pillars simultaneously. If you can't 3-man it with level 20 toons, re-roll is in order

[Ungood]

I didn't take a screenshot because if someone told me at that time that it was an accomplishment worth of screenshoting, I'd have LOL'd. Any decently geared level 12 can solo a base (gimps can guard home base ), and on Velah just choose as many 'tanks' as you have healers and single heal them while everyone else takes pot-shots.

Anyway, any 20 should be able to solo elite von6 without much issue were it not for the need to drop pillars simultaneously. If you can't 3-man it with level 20 toons, re-roll is in order

Feel free to do it again then, if you are as good as you seem to come across, it should be a small matter for you to get to 12th again, while you are at going up the level again add Reavers Fate @ 16th, Shroud at 19th, Abbot at 19th, as I would like to see this.

However, because unlike some people who feel that they are right no matter what, I will say, if provide this to me, I'll admit that the problem is on my end. Otherwise, meh. Words, everyone has them.

Raids should not break streak.

[Ungood]

Didn't screenshot it last life as I didn't feel a 10-12 elite VON6 was an accomplishment.

I have to say, I hear this soo much on the forums. And to be honest Sirgog, you are as far as I know, a highly skilled player, who has done quite a bit in the game, so I did not quite expect this from you.

But it seems that almost every discussion, at some point when I try to express that something is hard, or over the top, I get a response like "Oh that is easy, I did that at half your level, naked, with only a festival twig as a weapon, blah, blah, blah"

...and yet the second I ask them for a screen shot. I get some kind of canned response, almost always "Well I did not think it was screen shot worthy" or something along those lines.

Not trying to be rude here, but you and I know, that "Screen Shot or didn't happen" is a cultural standard in the gaming world for a reason, and a well expected and established one at that.

But more then that, this is what gets me a bit, you did not feel that perhaps your first time getting Bravery off Veliah, was screenshot worthy? Really?

Different worlds I suppose, I take screenshots when I pull good loot.

[sweez]

Feel free to do it again then, if you are as good as you seem to come across, it should be a small matter for you to get to 12th again, while you are at going up the level again add Reavers Fate @ 16th, Shroud at 19th, Abbot at 19th, as I would like to see this.

However, because unlike some people who feel that they are right no matter what, I will say, if provide this to me, I'll admit that the problem is on my end. Otherwise, meh. Words, everyone has them.

Raids should not break streak.

I'm not that good lol, I wasn't leading that run, I'm "good" enough to contribute in an elite von5-6 run, as is anyone who cares about being self-sufficient and listens to instructions. I'll ask the guy who lead that run if he has a screenie since you seem to be so hell-bent on it lol.

And yeah I also did an elite 14-16 reaver a few weeks back, I even tanked him on my dark monk that at that time had maybe 350ish HP. No screenie unfortunately

Funny thing is, without your insane hyperboles, I kinda agree with you - elite shroud or elite abbot indeed require a group of well-geared well-organized 20s that know those quests very well, and are willing to spend resources to have a good chance of completion (in my experience, others' experience may vary). Elite von6 and elite reaver should be absolutely steam-rolled by a couple of geared 20s and are absolutely doable at-level.

I also hope you don't take this personally, but really, do you go around screen-shotting everything you do? I'm sorry but that seems like a gigantic waste of time to me, and a proof that you have a bone to pick lol.

[Ungood]

I'm not that good lol, I wasn't leading that run, I'm "good" enough to contribute in an elite von5-6 run, as is anyone who cares about being self-sufficient and listens to instructions. I'll ask the guy who lead that run if he has a screenie since you seem to be so hell-bent on it lol.

A screen shot is a small matter, a simple trivial and easily providable means of proof. You would think people would be more apt to take them, especially when they want to come to a forum and make claims of what they have done.

"Oh I did That, yes, it was easy, no, I can't prove it" It would seem I have an endearing relationship with discussions that go in that direction, or perhaps it is enduring as it they never seem to go away.

And yeah I also did an elite 14-16 reaver a few weeks back, I even tanked him on my dark monk that at that time had maybe 350ish HP. No screenie unfortunately

Funny thing is, without your insane hyperboles, I kinda agree with you - elite shroud or elite abbot indeed require a group of well-geared well-organized 20s that know those quests very well, and are willing to spend resources to have a good chance of completion (in my experience, others' experience may vary). Elite von6 and elite reaver should be absolutely steam-rolled by a couple of geared 20s and are absolutely doable at-level.

I also hope you don't take this personally, but really, do you go around screen-shotting everything you do? I'm sorry but that seems like a gigantic waste of time to me, and a proof that you have a bone to pick lol.

I take screenshots of anything that strikes my fancy, either good or bad. From hilarious defeats to just cool images. Part of the fun of the game is also having a scrap book of what you did right, and what you did wrong, and in some cases, who you did it with.

Equally so, I have no bone pick, I made a claim, and in return, I have had others make counter claims. Since I find those claims, based on my personal experience of the game less then believable, I made a request proof.

You would think, people would be spamming me with a screenie to shut me down after asking for such an easy means to do so.

Especially when they start off by telling me how easy it is to begin with.

You would think at least...

[mikesharpshooter]

on cannith (server) there are no more lfm on normal, all on elite
usually new gamers will not run elite and do not want lead a group, just want have fun and learn
bravery bonus is killing the game (imho)

[Fensen]

My opinion is, of course, based on my usual play style, which is running with just a hireling 90% of the time. I enjoy running with groups when I do, but most of the time I just want to log on and play without waiting, or I do not want to be rude and have a group suffer from possible interruptions which may occur (think young children). From that standpoint, I generally find the game difficulty fair enough, at least up through level 15 quests. I really like the Vale quests, but find they are over powered for solo play. IQ, Lord of Eyes series seem ok for solo work on normal. Amrath...no way. I would like to see normal difficulty made a little more amenable to a solo experience on these higher end quests. For those who group up more often or want the extra challenge, keep the hard and elite difficulties where they are, but give those who have a more casual play expectation a little more to work with at the high end.

[ArcaneMelee]

...
I take screenshots of anything that strikes my fancy, either good or bad. From hilarious defeats to just cool images. Part of the fun of the game is also having a scrap book of what you did right, and what you did wrong, and in some cases, who you did it with.
...

I do this as well - I even keep them after I uninstall DDO in an attempt to break free of the addiction, and that's probably not such a hot idea. Going through them awakens the monster again

Ungood, I'm guessing that you PUG a lot of your raids, instead of running in a mostly static/guild? The reason I ask is that I've noticed the same kind of behavior when PUGging with the general population. For quite a while, I had given up on VON completely until I had gotten to level 20 and was either running it way over level or doing VoN5 normal/VoN6 epic.

Nothing like spending an hour+ only to wipe at the Knight, or maybe getting past him only to have coordination issues dropping the pillars. And then when half the group quits in disgust, finding out that the other half aren't quite as prepared for soloing a base as you are.

Yeah, static groups vs. true PUGs are wildly different beasts.

[Caliban]

Umm. I see you missed my point totally. I am not asking that Bravery Bonus be removed, I am demanding that raids not break streak.

I am all for them adding to the streak. In fact, more power to people who can do them at level. but when you have raids, like VoN6 that have been dorked with too infinity to placate capped toons they should not break the streak of the players who are trying to do them at level and realizing they can't because. oh right, they have been dorked with!

Like VoN6 for example. Yah, I get it, VoN6 needs to fun for 20's who need to farm it for loot, but right now, at level, when I am trying to do this raid, have it so if we end up doing this raid on hard or even normal, just to get it done, it does not shaft our current streak.

It's a pretty simple idea, again: Have Raids not break streak.

Having them add to streak is fine.

Eh, just make sure that you do the raid with someone 4+ levels over the base level of the raid and it won't affect your streak one way or the other. It's pretty easy to find VON6, DQ2, and Reaver raids loaded with lvl 18+ characters.

Raids are for loot, not XP.

[Ungood]

Raids are for loot, not XP.

This is exactly why Raids should not break streak!

[hewimeddel]

I have a wildly different suggestion for the difficulty setting:

Instead of making the choice a "per adventure"-setting, it could be a "per character"-setting. A player, who plays on "normal" would interact with the monsters normaly, while a charakter who picks "Elite" would make only half the damage and receive double damage, the mobs would have a higher resistance against his spells and so on.
Of course, this changes in the numbers should not be visible to the player, only the effect: tougher monsters for tougher settings, but also better rewards.

This way Casual-players could join in a group with Elite-players easily and groups could be filled much faster.

bye
hewi

[Sarisa]

Specifically about VoN6 elite at "bravery" level:

It's at a level where divines have very poor Mass Cure spells. Keeping up a group even with Empower Heal, Empower, and Quicken on for the two mass cures they have will drain even a well equipped (meaning Magi+Greensteel) Cleric of SP in a hurry. Velah does 100-120 per HIT to the entire group on elite. That's almost epic Velah type damage, but at level you have Mass Cures doing 50-80 per cast on the average player and costing ~80SP.

Quicken is not always taken by level 12, often kept until 15. Quicken is sadly pretty much necessary due to the 50-80 damage Wing Buffets Velah does to the "back" group. Wing Buffet now hits behind the rock, where prior to u11, it did not.

Arcanes do not have the really good damage spells at this level. Same type persistent AoE's don't work well together. The best single target spell available (Disintegrate) is practically useless due to Velah's sky high Fort save.

The bases themselves can be difficult due to the high damage to non-evasives from any uncontrolled trash. The high (40 or 50) piercing DR of the pillars make them difficult for many to deal with. Many at-level runs do not have a Bard, and many at-level PUG runs do not understand the concept of Fascinate even when explained in the cases where you do have a Bard.

The times I have succeeded at an elite-streak VoN6 have been done with multiple healers each choosing a "hero" melee with good DPS and high HP and just worrying about keeping them up with the Heal spell. Every one else is pretty much on their own.

If you manage to have an "Inferno" happen, Velah's insane regen will heal her completely while everyone is hiding behind the rock.

VoN5 is definitely manageable, if you can deal with the traps. VoN6 is definitely overtuned at level.