Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[macubrae]

We are casual gamers and we play every other day or so. Because of children and RL we find it difficult to do many raids and epic quests, so our chances of making GS or epic upgrading items is slim. Yet we've managed to cap a toon each and are well on our way with a dozen more.

Overall difficulty? It seems more or less accurate until level 12. Some of the quests after seem to assume that we have GS/raid loot and they are more challenging. It was at this level that we started using hirelings.

Inconsistency? If the quest is an extreme challenge, they warn you before you enter. If you are not geared for an extreme challenge don't go in. There's your easy button.

Challenge vs. success? I feel that there should always be a chance of not being able to complete a quest(tank commanded, healer stunned, big trap before the first shrine blows up on the rogue, etc.). On normal there should be 95% successful completion at level. Hard, more like 85% and leet should be 75%. With farm geared twinks, add 10-20%. There is always a chance for one of the key characters to miss a save and get knocked down, stunned, or dead right at the wrong moment. Epics should be 50/50 but their drops should increase.

45min frustration? As many clerics will tell you, you can't fix stupid. Some players will attempt to zerg and wipe in the first room, then act like it's the clerics fault. Some will be over confident going into the final fight and 'DING'. On a few of the quests, there is a mid-quest fight that seems harder then the end fight, maybe on upcoming quests, there can be an early fight that puts players on their heals and makes them run that one more carefully.

Balance? IMHO, it just can't be done. As it stands now, melees can trot through the first five levels on DDO, while rogues and casters are a bit more squishy. The next five are spent looking for any and all bane weapons by a melee and casters get real DPS spells but still have to watch their SP. Levels 10-15, casters get CC, great buffs, major damage spells, and SP gear while melees begin the never ending farm for DPS gear and carefully pick and choose feats, enhancements and Pres. By endgame casters can instadeath multiple foes, summon IX, debuff baddies, and let's not forget GODmode(for some). While melees, who require buffs, heals, and a splash of something else(for that feat that they just don't get), will still be farming that DPS equipment, getting vorpals nerfed, having to break fortification, and their AC is made irrelevant, But they have alot of HP(they'll need it).

I've been a PnP gamer for almost thirty years. I've made characters for every class with almost every combination. I've made every fun/tweeked/minmax/gimped build just to see how it would play. I've continued doing so on DDO with roughly 20+ toons(total) spread across 5 servers. Barbarian halflings, Bard horcs, and toons based on comic books(Hellboy, Ironman), I'm here to not fit in the cookie cutter and to have fun.

[Book_O_Dragons]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

I never played most p2p content for the first time "at level" but subsequent toons usually find that part fine except for a few specific quests (the commonly complained about ones).

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

No, it seems to be fairly spread out.

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

That would be boring but if you have experienced players with moderatly geared toons you shouldn't. Its a reason to pug though.

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

I think there should be points in the longer quests that will guarenty XP but not as optionals. Optionals can be farmed without reduction in value; these should increment the completion counter some but not a full completion.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

The forums aren't the general community of players it is TOO hard to get a forum account. I posted a guide to creating an account on my guild forums because it isn't intuitive. The ingame browser should take you to a screen where you can create an account for my.ddo.com/forums if you dont have one it takes you to a login screen that doesn't tell you where to make an account.

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Yesterday I went from the necro 4 adventure area (Orchard) to Gianthold which is listed as 1 level lower but the enemies are around twice as hard.

Answers in red.

[twiliteslayer02]

I couldnt edit my post , so ill do so here.

After reading several more posts, I dont feel I made my point , and so I will attempt to clarify.


Some of us have been extremely vocal about that "easy button" and the "dumbing down" of ddo in general for more than one update, the unbalance isn't in the content, its in that content's mechanics most often.


The difficulty choices in MY opinion are meant like this ( a non-twinked veteran level player to disallow for level breaking gearouts)

- Casual : No real challenge until boss, puzzles should give one or two hints cleverly hidden. overall a no sweat no resource run.


-Normal : Equals to the appropriate level, if a level 5 quest, the most badassed monster should be cr 7 at max, and the player should use no more than the shrines and maybe a few potions to complete.A 50-50 chance to drop the named loots/specials.


-Hard : A challenge, using more that a few potions, all of the shrines, probably want to have a group of at least three to do without twink gear, and every creature/puzzle/trap capable of one-shot killing a fully buffed character of any class. loot table should have a high chance of dropping the special loots.


-Elite : Crazy hard to complete, should be the epitome of NEED HELP and require the expenditure of serious resources and time, all shrines used, maybe even auto fails, not impossible, but **** hard to complete and nearly impossible to do so solo. Guaranteed special loot.


I know I dont give specifics, Im not a power gamer, and I only see this as an effort vs reward thing, its how I choose what to run, and there are quests I simply wont run anymore because they dont have sufficient reward or require special named gear , or semi serious tactics that everone in the group needs to know to be able to complete. Those arent fun, its more like a job and IMO is what needs the attention. My statement doesnt even come to those quests where the mind numbing lag can cause fails, thats gonna be a totally different post.

[zebidos]

I have to add to my previous comment after some further comments that elite quests (not raids) SHOULD be soloable by a well geared and skilled player.

With the current game set up for favour rewards and how XP works and the amount of XP needed for someone with multiple lives I personally would find it annoying as heck to have to group with people just to run elite content and run the same content multiple times.

As it stands, elite is fairy easy to solo (for someone well geared and knows the quest) until about level 14 then gets way too time consuming, and soloing elite in any quest with undead in it is something I do not like to do, hence I avoid the necropolis like the plague.

So in regards to elite quests (not raids) I say tone it down a little for solo play at higher levels, and make it more accesable for any class that wants to solo it, melee or caster.

Or, if DDO's intention is to make elite only playable with a group please rework how favour rewards work as it is not possible or enjoyable for me to find a group to run every quest on elite for house favour.

[fuzzy1guy]

Overall the game difficulty is just right. Except for the latest changes to some bosses and newest content. (LOB/MA)

Abbot is just silly. lich with evasion and a bjillion hp? it's not level 20 content. An average equipped player is no longer of any use in there.

Reaver. There was no need for that to be ramped up the way it was. It is NOT a level 20 raid. It should not need a bunch of 20's to do it. The penalty box death is just the icing on the sillycake.

People complain the old ones were too easy? Well those people are all 20's with plenty of gear and epic items. IT SHOULD BE EASY AT THAT POINT! I would expect moderately geared 20's to stomp the crud out of a raid 3 levels below them.

Shroud is still ok. EXCEPT for the blades. those are just much too much over the top. at level people have almost zero chance to get into anything but shroud normal now. and usually one of the lower levels will have to start it and do it themselves. The groups of 20's wont take them anymore. The blades need a reflex save perhaps. Or their damage cut by another 30%. Or both.

I'd also include epic von and epic DQ in this list of way too much now. When one tiny thing can make 12 people waste an hour+ of their time and wipe. And have zero way to recover.. Not much fun. von might be the worst since a fail in the dragon means they have to rerun von5 again.

HOX is just fine. it still relys on people paying attention, doing what they are told, and doing their part. However maybe its time for an OFFICIAL view on what works and what doesnt. I STILL see people claiming that gh is bad and other misinformation.

VOD is also just fine still. It's difficult. But very doable by most moderate groups. Recovery is possible if things go bad as well.

TOD still just about right. However the penalty box style death in here is just silly. If you screw up and die. You still won't be learning anything because you can't see whats going on anymore. And i'd like those tod boots we are REQUIRED to make have some other use or buff on them. Keeping a piece of equipment around for one specific raid you run a limited # of times till you get your ring/trophys and never run again.... Pretty silly.

LOB/MA i won't even address. You KNOW they are geared to the high end players. You have to know. I hope.


Overall for most quests in the game. Something needs to be tweaked with the dungeon scaling as well. When a solo or duo can complete the dungeon with less mess than a group of 6... Why exactly would most people take a full group?

Sum up.. You've done pretty well with difficulty thru most of the game. However the last round of changes to raid bosses and the last couple of packs.. You really dropped the ball here. Both for the players. Who want stuff to do that they can do. And for your own bank accounts. Whos outside of the power gamer big guilds is going to buy a pack when they know they have a near zero chance to complete the raid to build the items?

[Aashrym]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a position where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

This is far too subjective. I see an issue with gap in the players at most given levels and that gap comes from gear, guild buffs with slotted items and ship buffs, and general game knowledge. If I solo at level on a wizard with twinked gear and buffs I do not find most of the game challenging.

This was not always true because I did not always have that knowledge, or gear, or past lives, or guild buffing, or dungeon scaling. I would be concerned newer players who don't have those will see things very differently than where my characters would be at now. I think players who have had more play time, more experience, and more gear could see it differently as well.

What I think it should be is:

Casual: This should be soloable for a player of any class, easy for any misfit group, and a cakewalk for a balanced group. That is pretty much the point of wanting to go in on casual in the first place.

Normal: This should be soloable but not necessarily easily, possibly slightly challenging for any misfit group, easy for a balanced group.

Hard: This should be difficult to solo but not impossible, difficult for any misfit group, challenging for a balanced group.

Elite: This should be very difficult to solo, very difficult but not impossible for any misfit group, difficult for a balanced group.

Epic: The gap in level 20's is also extreme. Start adding epic ranks and possibly listing the level for these by rank.


In all of those cases the target group for difficulty is what a new player with new player resources should be able to realistically achieve. Balancing difficulty based on what someone who has run the quest a bajilliion times with twinked gear and multiple TR's makes it too difficult for new players compared to seasoned players. This is especially true for seasoned players running raids that are several levels below them. It's a bad idea to adjust a level 14 or 17 raid to level 20 characters just because those characters don't feel challenged running something several levels below them.

In so far as the gear gap and player knowledge gap I would like to suggest a change in the XP award system. Not just for specific quests that might warrant it but in the progression tables. A person can go through to level 20 fairly quickly and does out level quests and raids before the player acquires the drop or crafting ingredients. I am thinking make all characters lives the same XP rate as a 2nd life on TR, or at least closer to that scale. This would slow down that first life to build more level appropriate gear and learn the game better. This would also promote more past TR's because those additional lives can be a bit intimidating with the current XP cost. Just a thought.

I also think the dungeon scaling is counter productive to grouping and alters the parameters of the previously existing difficulty settings. What is really the point of a high difficulty setting that we can make easier?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

I see a lot of inconsistency with the have's and have not's because of twinking, guild benefits, plat accumulation, and TR'ing at all levels. Several quests could be rebalanced but, just for example, proof is in the poison is a 20 minute run for one group and can be more than an hour for another group if that second group doesn't wipe or just become frustrated.

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I noted this above. This is DnD. In DnD the DM's goal is to provide a gaming experience the players will enjoy, not to try and kill them all. Players who want a challenge should have that option with hard or elite but not on normal. Normal should be where you are participating with your character with high success rate regardless of being new or being a completionist in a level 75 guild.

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

I would agree it can be very frustrating but that is why we have multiple difficulty settings. I think everyone should be able to play but players need a way to learn at what difficulty they should be playing. Jumping into an elite shroud on 12 level 16 characters and those players either better be very prepared or should expect failure. That is something development might look at but definitely something a player needs to consider. Elite shroud I would expect to be difficult but not impossible for an organized group of first life characters at level 19. Not so much with capped and geared level 20's with a lot of resources.

Being able to take subpar characters through higher difficulty settings and power their way through with SP pots also creates issues with difficulty settings. Balancing content with the expectation to chug pots would deserve a finger wagging and then some while balancing without the SP pots can trivialize difficulty.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Often that easy button response is incongruent with player behavior. Groups of level 20 characters running shroud on normal (to bring it back to the example) for green steel crafting is an example of such. Those players are obviously more interested in getting those materials more easily than running it on higher difficulty sessions for challenge.

I think more difficulty settings might be a better answer for challenge for the players who do want more challenge. I would also think that if having this set up as a solution for higher challenge for enjoying higher challenge then do not add extra benefits for completing it on those higher challenges.

Adding those extra benefits increases the gap between the players because suddenly the expectations go up. Higher challenge settings don't need more favor, they don't need more gear only attainable in those settings, etc. Adding things only obtainable through those settings changes those settings into a normal requirement for favor and gear and anything else. Adding those extra benefits only creates the need to get everyone into those difficulties and creates the need to give more challenge to more players again.

If someone really just wants an increase in challenge they will use it without incentives other than the challenge. Otherwise they will simply show that the challenge was never really the priority.

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Those were some of my thoughts. Looking forward to the class balance thread.

[moops]

Inconsitent lvl raitings.

Our Big saying is that end game Elite is harder than Epic. There was no question that we would try Epic LOB before Elite LOB. . .

For instance, take those devils in elite VOD, many TRs can't even CC or zap them effectively--yet we do not have this prob in 90% of Epic. Elite Amrath is harder than most Epic Quests. Elite TOD and Shroud are harder and less forgiving of mistakes than eDQ, eVON6 and eCHRONO.

THere needs to be more class balance, it seems like DDO is trying to get everyone to roll cookie cutter builds with the same few classes and all of them Half Orcs or Humans.

Stop pigeon holing Clerics into just healing positions, and healing pres--Clerics are some of the most powerful casters in PnP. I play a caster cleric and I don't think that there has been any actual new gear for me in years outside of the Epic Spirit Site goggles.

I really can't believe that people are still complaining about shroud normal, its just as easy as ever even in pugs, if people communicate.

And really all the content is easy, if the group uses strategy and communicates--however, if people just want to zerg and hack and slash, then yes some of the content is too hard.

This game is so much easier than when I started to play. I do join pugs at all levels and sit back and let them discover the quest, etc--Im not one of those people who will run ahead and kill everything or tell first timers what to do--and for the msot part everything has been smooth--i remember wiping and wiping in new dungeons the first couple years I played.

Of my 2 most memorable failed groups, they both went in on elite which was 2 lvls than us and everyone went in different directions causing red alert, and one quest was Dreams of Insanity which no one had ever even done on normal.

[dragons1ayer74]

For the most part you guys get it fairly good but every once in a while the difficulty scale is so out of whack with the quest on easier difficulties that it is not even anything the same. Some examples: New Invasion on elite the end fight is completely different and very unforgiving why does blade barrier not work on the boss it is not like it would all of a sudden make the quest easy. In the Demons Den each difficulty the quest gets harder IMO elite should be as tough as hard. Acute Delirium the respawn rate is to high and endless for monsters of this caliber and the sprinkling of regular beholds in with the existing mobs is just plain cruel. Monastery of the Scorpion, good until the end fight and then on elite it is a completely different quest that becomes extremely hard for a group of players to complete unless you have both an extremely good kiter and an extremely good puzzle solver. TOR DRAGONS on hard and elite these fights are very difficult and made worse by the mechanic that they both have to be killed at the same time the environmental effects should not scale as severe as they do. In the Flesh good until end fight, then on elite it is a completely different quest that has some very unforgiving mechanics a ranged psionic attack that can kill/disable you, a sprinkling of random beholders and never ender tough trash mobs.

Quest that have a fail point should also offer better XP rewards, quests that are high fail should offer better XP rewards, quests that are higher level in general should offer better XP rewards.

Epics should have the option to have a difficulty set (casual to elite).

Also the game should look at one higher level of difficulty that offers pure challenge for a minor incentive (leader board, small bonus to XP, extra guild renown).

It does suck to spend 45+ minutes and fail with no recourse to continue other than try again from scratch. I think most quests that have the fail condition could be slightly redesigned to have a big objective (ie: “Reach the boss” that grants a nice bit of xp (ie: 50% of quest base) and if the quest allows a small random quest appropriate chest right before the end fight.

Also raids should have a casual setting (slightly less drop rate but still a chance, longer raid timer, and still counts as a completion).

[herzkos]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

I'm going to make this short and sweet. no wall of text here:
Thanks for posting this thread Madfloyd.

1.Difficulty level is a scattershot depending on quest and class in this game.
It's all over the map, one 8th level quest is easily soloable to a ranger on norm and hard
while another is impossible for the same character. (first life one, not a twinked to the gills
multi tr type). (pick your target audience please, whether it's the hardcore or the casual and
balance to that standard, that way people know what they're getting into when they play the game)

2.too much inconsistency throughout.

3. Normal should be the most played difficulty level, challenging but not overly so.

4. 45 minutes into a quest should not guarantee completion, it should guarantee no
arbitrary you lose situation unless it's a timed quest

5. NUKE THE REP SYSTEM. Of course the most die hard, vocal, and extreme are going to sound
the loudest on any forum, but when you combine it with the ability to neg rep into oblivion anyone
who disagrees with them, what do you really expect to hear?

[Gizeh]

I think assigning difficulties that are ok for everyone is close to impossible - the differences between a greared multi tr who knows every quest and is a member of a level 60+ guild and a new player's first 28 pt guildless character who doesn't have any twink gear, let alone any quest knowledge, are humongous.

In my opinion, normal quest difficulty should cater to the newbie, especially as trs can open quests on hard (1st tr) or elite (2nd+ tr) anyway. Don't get me wrong, quests shouldn't have an easy button beyond the casual setting, but the standard for normal quests should be 1st life characters, played by people who just started the game, ie don't have twink gear, but who are willing to learn the game.

Prime example: Taming the Flames, a level 7 quest. I first ran it on my (back then) guildless first life ungeared rogue. It was VERY hard to complete the quest on normal. Meanwhile I played the game for about a year, and I recently ran the quest with a 32pt twink geared character who is in a level 51 guild. I also know the quest by now, and I had no problems whatsoever.

[Kinerd]

The overall difficulty level is fine.

One problem is that somebody in charge somewhere has confused tedium and frustration with difficulty. Case in point: air elementals for melees. They are in no way a test of skill. They're just tedious.

Escort missions should always be of the form of Power Play and never of the form Threnal. If Power Play was an experiment, please make a note: huge success.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Dungeon scaling really has made a lot of quests seem easy.

But...while I do not enjoy soloing, a lot of players do...so maybe that is a good thing.
(at least until they get in a group a brag about how easy this quest was when they soloed it. )

Traps!
I am still very upset about the across the board elite traps boost awhile back.
Really bothers me that the most fearsome monster in any dungeon is a trap.
And "if" the trap is required to pass through to complete the dungeon, any group without a Rogue is hurt by this. (and then there are those traps that cannot be disabled...Litany force trap at end)

Also, my Dex based, I even took feats for saves, toon fails way too many trap Ref saves.
(don't even talk to me about those "illusionary" I can't disbeive or evade traps in Party Crashers!)

Raids
and lvl 20 characters.

If you make the raids to challenge lvl 20s, then the correct lvl guys cannot do the raids.
this is a bad thing.

Why are lvl 20 guys in my Reaver raid anyway?!
Why even think about putting loot into a lvl 14 raid that a lvl 20 guy would even want?!

This situation will only get worse if you ever give us epic lvls (21+).


lvl 20s need lvl 20 stuff to do. And tempt them to do.
They have no business running below lvl raids.

Even Shroud elite would be lvl 19. So why are there lvl 20 guys stil doing the Shroud? (on normal!)

Get them out of there!
not by making it impossible for them to do. But by giving them lvl 20 content to run instead.

But...green steel takes awhile to make.
longer than it takes to get to 20.
So... I guess you can't just keep them out.
find another option.


And I guess if nothing else, try to get them to do elite at least.

Elite! in general, should be tough.
That is the lvl to challenge the TRs (or experienced players).


End fights.
Really kinda depressing to get all the way to the end of a quest, and be blindsided by a super tough end fight.




Something to think about.

Everyone who posts on the forums claims to be a DDO God who soloes epics with ease.
They are not the average player. (even if they are telling the truth)

I PUG all the time. I love a challnge. Most PUGs cannot handle the slightest challenge IMO. Not even PUGs of TRed vets. Seriuosly, the average player sucks.
Oh...they might have DPS and HP.... but they still suck!

I don't know what the fix to this is.
On one hand, we are raising a generation of playeers who cannot handle a really tough challenge.
But if you make things too otugh for them, they will quit. And we need players.

I also hate when people feel a quest has becme tough, so they get all exclusive, and selective in who they let come along to ensure their vistory.

But I guess the only way to handle this is to have normal for casual guys, hard for vets. And elite for those who really are elite. (not just who think they are)

But I'm against changing older quests.

Make new (lvl 20!) ones.

[ferrite]

Well I was gonna write some long-winded diatribe about uber vs. average player but decided whats the point.

But my thought is, yes, the game is currently slanted towards the uber-player. And I think its a primary reason why, the population of the game has been decreasing slowly for some time now, to the point where you can't even find groups for some raids anymore. Its possible the game has become frustratingly difficult for the average player (see below for a definition of 'average player')

All raids should be puggable. ALL raids. This includes Titan, Abbot, and LOB and all the rest. The average player simply hasn't the time to consult the wiki nor work out strategies, they have to cook dinner and/or play with the kids and put them to bed, then go to work the next day. This is the average player.

Challenges should be soloable, with an option to suppress or remove the clock entirely, perhaps less rewards for doing so. Same concept as above.

Basically a policy of opening up all content to be experienced by the average player. Average player doesn't include vets with hundreds of larges or epics, nor forum loudmouths who've been around since beta and whine about extreme challenges. These are not your average player, and are not the market Turbine should be catering to at all.

Because, if you create content to only be enjoyed by the uber player, the less than 1% audience of DDO.. then what is the point of creating it at all? All should be able to experience it in one form or another, or its simply wasted development.

Forgive the long-winded diatribe. But you did ask for opinions, and you now have mine.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Let me add something else.

Monsters that do super damage and have a zillion HP is not the only way to challnge people.

In fact, if you read the thread aboit the hardest quests, you will see many listed that are not difficult because they have high damaging mobs with lots of HP. But because they are challenging in some other way.

Enemy Spell casters for one.
kill the casters first, came about because it is those casters that really mess up most players.

All that melee DPS and HP just doesn't seem to work so well when the Flame Strikes start dropping.

I don't like mobs that can endlessly spam the same disabling spell forever though.
(at least give them more variety in what disabling spells they spam. )

But provide defenses.

Actually we already have a lot of defenses that no one uses. (one reason those quests are so difficult)

(I am really against no-dispellable ship buffs, and 30pt resists at lvl 1 btw)

Constructs were a step in the right direction.
Elementals, oozes, (undead...ok...maybe not)

Things that cannot be critted.
Things with natural DR.
Monsters that the usual weapons are not so good at killing.
(and golems really shoul dbe immune to almost all magic!)

Anyway there are many ways to challenge players without using super damage and HP.

Variety in the same dungeon is good for balance btw.
cause even though you need to reduce players ability to use their favorite tactics to challenge them; you also need to give them times to have fun using those favorite super powers as well.

[Hakushi]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

I like the variety of difficulty, I don't remember finding myself with troubles doing normal.

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

Personally, I consider my time to be important since it's a "limited ressource". Joining a group and failing isn't fun if I end up with nothing. I don't like to waste my time. That dosn't mean quests should be a guaranteed success but if a lot of time is spent in a quest, a failure with nothing isn't what I call a good thing. A short quest with easy access is different as you just jump back in. Examples of this is DQ2 compared to Titan and Von6, DQ2 you just jump back in, both Titan and VoN6 have the time sink that are the first parts. If on a failure, the entire group would be teleported back at the entrance with a reset on the entire encounter, that could be something good to consider.

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

The Black Abbot is a good example here. I personally don't like much that raid because it's always a very long raid with very little to no reward. Only one chest at the end isn't enough. Normal Abbot should have one side chest, Hard 2 and Elite 3 chests (all added to the main chest). I rarely join groups for the Abbot because of the great time sink this raid is, the items are nice, but while doing the raid, I'm almost basically nerfing my guild by not brigning anything while any other raids have more rewards. The Tiles puzzle is almost always the longest part, if the person falls down, they die instantly and the puzzle fails, what about water in there like the ice puzzle, you fell down, you're in the water taking damage and have to jump back on a platform or simply you fall down, you are teleported back at the beginning of your puzzle and takes 200 damage and have a 10% slow debuff for a few minutes. Make the zone a no healing zone.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

From what I've seen, this is entirely true. Is it bad, yes and no, it all depends of the situation.

I think the changes to the Reaver's Fate are bad. One example, 500 damage disintegrate in a level 14 quest, 16 on elite? Most epic monsters don't even have a disintegrate that deal so much damage, and not even the Black Abbot, a super caster.

Some people think the changes to The Shroud blades were a good change, I disagree on this one, I think a change was needed, but this one is too much imo. On any difficulty, in part4, Harry isn't the main threat but it's now the blades. Beware if you lag or place yourself at a bad spot. Seriously, Harry could be replaced with a huge Training Dummy and it wouldn't make much difference. Why it is now a much better option to go in with only casters?

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Here's a quest that I consider silly on Elite: Acute Delerium. How many people actually completed this thing with a ful group of lvl 20s. This is insanely harder than most epic quests.

Another quest that a lot of people like: Weapons Shipment on elite. If you do it with a full group of 6, there's so much monsters that the game becomes unplayable due to lag and I've seen people dc because of this. Great change I agree compared to the snoozefest it used to be, but too much. Also, why did you made that quest so much easier to solo and invite people only for the end fight?

Bastion of Power with Dungeon Alert. I don't really think I need much to elaborate on this one, we all know DA is broken in that quest.

Another point, Air Elementals and the stupid knockdown effect. I tought you guys realized how air elementals were not fun, but extremely annoying and made changes accordingly. They were too easy, and now are back to their extremely annoying state.

Spies in the House on Epic needs to be reviewed seriously. That also bring to a different point: Have anyone ever tought it's silly that one of the main quests in the Sentinels pack storyline isn't Epic, but the side quest is Epic?

First of all, I would like to thank you for this, I really appreciate and makes me feel our toughts are important. I think it's never too late for a good thing, and this level of communication is a great thing to please the customers.

I havn't put much time into it, but my awnsers are colored in the quote.

[Perryc]

Is DDO too easy? too hard? just right?

This is not an easy question to answer. Some quests are easier than they should be, others are much harder, and some are jsut fine. To put it another way, the content is not balanced. The only way to appreciate the differences is to run through all of the content with a veteran player/group. I'm about to start another 2xTR to take advantage of the bravery and holiday XP bonuses, although I'm sure there are other players that would be willing to step up ...

[nibel]

I just skimmed through the topic. Probably I'll repeat what someone already said.

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

As a whole, I would put DDO on the "newbie friendly" zone. Sure, endgame requires some gear, but we have very few quests where completion on normal is not guaranteed, no matter the group. Farming gear is relativelly easy compared to other games, and the Store is good without being essential (so, the game isn't pay to win). Even with the changes to Shroud, the game is still fairly easy on general.

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

The worst parts are when you change from an "old pack" to a "new pack". The last parts of Tangleroot is theoretically done on level 6-7 range. Sharn Syndicate is a level 4 chain and is much harder than it.

Old packs were buildt with some loot in mind. New packs are build with the new power creep in mind (power creep is unavoidable in any updating game, thanks for keeping them slow enough), like khortos sets.

We can set paralels through the whole game. Gianthold is easier than Plaza, Sorrowdusk is easier than Fens, STK is easier than Carnival. Tangleroot is easier than Sentinels.

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I think that any party should still be capable to complete any quest on normal, no matter what. Hard should see some failures if the team is unprepared, and Elite should see some failures sometimes even on the most prepared teams.

Raids are a separate topic. We need to remove the tinted glasses and admit that level 20 toons are running it. Since when the cap raised, very few people expect to run VoN 5 at level. Much less on elite. "If the opportunity appear, I'll jump on it, but not a priority". I think normal raids should be balanced for at level parties, but Hard and Elite could be balanced for higher level parties. Eg, VoN should be level 10 normal, 14 hard, 18 Elite. And give some incentive to run even the pre-raids on raised difficulty. Maybe elite only can drop one raid chest with Normal drops. Of course, this would requires the completion of pre-raid to start the timer on VoN and Titan. (DQ already have something like that)

And of course, please, remove the raids from the bravery bonus. This is basically killing almost all at-level raid pugs.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Yes, you are balancing the game for the uber players. I have absolutelly no problem with it - IF that was set to hard and elite settings. Changing Normal to set with the new power level of the random player is good (like raising Splinterskull to Carnival levels), but there is no reason for a random beholder on a level 11 quest hit you for unavoidable 180 damage (successful save on finger of death)

And yes, the game is too easy for anyone reasonably geared. That's why you should incentive them to play on elite for a challenge. See Reaver's Refuge for an example of how not do things. Everyone run it only on casual for a good reason.

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Specific quests: In the Demon's Den is the most perfect quest on DDO when you talk about difficulty scaling. Sure, the mobs are beefed up, but no one enter it on elite saying "beware the fortified mobs". Difficulty scaling should be more like that. To the point where they can be called 3 separated quests with the same map.

A Small Problem is another hit on the nail. The extra mobs only appear on Elite/Epic, but they change the quest enough to be an extra challenge.

Lord of Blades is a great example of a hard quest done right. It's not "MOAR HP". It requires tactics, timing, knowledge, and preparation. More quests should require this.

Specific mechanics: Guild buffs. All your low level experience changes A LOT depending if you have ship buffs or not. A +2 to hit, +4 damage, and resists on a capped toon is one thing. The same buffs on a low levle toon basically turn it into a god.

let's do some basic math. A 16 str level 2 fighter have +5 to hit. Add khortos set khortos googles, and +2 str (+1 khortos necklace, +1 fighter enhancement), and this up to +9. He deal ~1d8+4 damage per swing. Add 1d6 from flaming just because we can. This turns into ~12 damage average.

Now let him into a massive ship buff festival. He gets +4 damage (1 str shrine, 1 kobold, 2 hobgoblin), +3 AC, +4 to-hit (kobold, str shrine, dummy), resist 30 to all elements, +2 to all saves (+1 from kobold, +1 from con/dex/wis shrines), and tons of skill buffs.

Anything that is moderatelly challenging for the unbuffed fighter will be boring for the buffed one. This is a wide gap, and any difficulty balance at low-mid levels should ask if they need ship buffs or not. If they need, any unguilded player is facing a harder game. If don't, the guilded ones will think the game is too easy.

The best solution is limiting the ship buffs in some way. I have no idea how, I'm just throwing the rant on the wind.

[BadBuy]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

I started playing the game not so long ago, so I still remember how it was back then. Puged and soloed up to level 20 (since I was f2p I completed the slayers in the vale and other places). Played a Ranger so the limited self healing abilities were quite usefull. So overall the difficulty of it all is ok. I didn't think it was too hard.

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

The real problem is that later in the game it get's more complex than "smash and bash". It may be something simple as "carry a restoration potion and this won't be a problem", but the new players need to be forced to read or learn some key things. Because even after reaching lvl 20 I didn't know much about basic "self preservation". The real problem is not the actual difficulty, but the knowledge gap: most new players don't read the forums or DDOWiki and are clueless about how things work.

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

As mentioned before you should be able to succeed IF you use your head. You can be wilard with a Greataxe till about level 7 and do quite good, but that doesn't mean that you should blame the game difficulty for that tactic no longer working. I really don't think that letting players get to lvl 14+ without knowing about the most important potions, game mechanics and self preservation is a good idea. Then they start getting some gear, go play with the big boys and... "I keep dying and can't do everything by myself it must be too hard because I did so well before and could just smash through any quest". Encourage, no, make them learn how the game works before reaching the end game. You will be doing them a favor and they will see that in most cases it's not that hard.
For those that want to always win without any endeavor there is Progress Quest.

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

Seriously - Progress Quest. You CAN'T loose there. Nothing more boring or pointless. Some of the most fun and educating quests were those that were failed. I'd choose a Fligh simulator over a Train driver simulator any day.
Where would the no failure limit be? Hard? Elite? Epic? People have to be able to fail otherwise there is no point to become better. This is not a lame game where you just put on gear and mash attack and spell buttons. I play DDO because it's much more. DDO is using knowledge about the enemies, spells and items in your possesion, it's about using tactics and quick action game reflexes and much more. If you remove these you will make it more like other games out there. Remove the knowledge and thinking and you will be competing with Diablo. I loved Diablo 1&2 in it's time for relaxation because because it was quick action, feeling of great power with no brains required. I really don't think that DDO should get a lobotomy. Teach the new players instead.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

I don't think there are many major problems with game difficulty, but there are some:
Class ballance should be addressed because instakilling Arcanes are the only real scroll farming choice for a reason. The gap starts widening after lvl 10 and is especially affected by gear.
People don't use their heads, they don't want to learn, but they still want to be uber - so they want the game to be easier. This game is not WoW gear is not everything here.
I agree that Epics should either have grades: lvl 21 for House P and D, lvl 23-25 for Sands or all be made the same HARDER difficulty. I fully agree that it should be something to strive for, something for truly the best of the best. Am I the best of the best? H*ll no! But I wan't to try to become one. Being able to do it after less than half a year takes the point out of playing further. Why continue if you can already accomplish what is meant for "the best fo the best"? Congratulations you won DDO! Where will you go to seek new challenges?

I agree with Casual being a solo/walk in the park for a party difficulty. Scale it reasonably according to party size. Casual Solo should be about as difficult as Normal in a party.
Normal is not easy! Normal is normal! It shouldn't be hard, but shouldn't be too forgiving either. You do something very stupid=you die. Death is a traumatic, but educational experience.
Hard should give all groups at level a hard time and failing should be quite likely if people are not using all of their strengths - teamwork, knowledge, reflexes and others.
Elite should be truly difficult. Not properly (allround) prepared groups should meet their death here.
Epic - can we all really be "the best of the best"? Kinda looses it's point then doesn't it? Sadly too many people want to feel that they are "teh uberz" even if they have no idea how to cure a mummy rot.
Overall I would suggest kepping the current gap between casual and normal and making the other gaps bigger. If grading difficulty 1 to 10. 10 being the highest:
Casual - 1-1,8
Normal - 2
Hard - 5
Elite - 8
Epic - 12

Soloing is good, but if you want to solo all the time why are you playing an MMORPG? Here Teamwork is key and one person does not a team make. There are lot's of single player RPGs with better graphics, increadible storylines, great replayability value and...they're oriented towards solo play. Asking an MMORPG to be 100% solo friendly is asking more than for DDO to balance everything for PvP.

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Replies in the quote.

[Phemt81]

Yes it appears from where Im sitting that you guys keep adjusting the game to suit a very small group of people.

I play a ton. Probably more than most, but not near as much as some. I know the game well enough and now have my toons geared ENOUGH to start running epics. But there have been unintended consequences to making the game more of a challenge to 'that group' of players: Most Epic LFM's require epic gear to run epic content. That ruins it for 'new to epic' players to get into epics.

Most folks playing this game do not have a large guild to make guild runs with, therefore they have to pug epic content and raids.

While I can run some epic content with my guild mates(3 of us total) and none of us have a single epic piece of gear, I personally still can't get into PUG epics because of the requirements (unintended consequences).

As far as a specific quest: You guys ruined NORMAL Shroud. Unintended consequence: Greensteel and epic gear and over 400 HP's are now an accepted REQUIREMENT to run the raid........ON NORMAL. Hard and elite? Sure. They are dame difficult to run and should be. To get into the high end content to include epics, you should strive to get to making GS weapons and items.

Most hi end raid LFM's anymore specifically state "No new people" or "no non GS or Epic geared NOOBS" etc.........

After constantly looking since the content first came out, I was finally allowed into my first Master Artificer raid last night.

I know that you guys aren't purposely trying to exclude any group of players, but the UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES are there and are hurting the game.

In the last 48 hrs I have only seen 3 or 4 Shroud LFM's up on Argo. Im sure there were more up at different times, but before the last update, there was constantly 1 or 2 LFM's up at any given time, all of the time.

I usually lead Shroud and constantly accept new people. I have no problem teaching the raid. New people to the raid and or the game are afraid to speak up do to the UNINTENDED consequences of making the game harder for a select few.

When you make certain changes, it causes a select few people to turn into complete idiots because they are afraid of failure. "new to the raid? You can't join because I don't hold hands".

There are side effects to every change that you make.

I think the worst thing about that is that the "old people" (if this is offensive, ban me please!) do not seem to get it.

[Phemt81]

i really don't think that ddo should get a lobotomy.

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