Thoughts on this Earth Stance tank

[whomhead]

I have been messing around with the idea of building a monk tank. The idea is to stack a meaningful AC (in the 80-100 range, depending on buffs) with DR 10/Epic, 20% damage reduction and 25% incorporeality for a very sturdy and powerful tank. First, I'll post the build, then explain my choices a bit.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 352
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 15
Will: 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    16
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         16                    20
Intelligence         11                    13
Wisdom               17                    27
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    34
Bluff                -2                    -1
Concentration         7                    32
Diplomacy            -2                    -1
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                    -1
Heal                  3                    10
Hide                  2                     7
Intimidate           -2                    -1
Jump                  6                    15
Listen                3                     8
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     3
Spot                  3                    31
Swim                  2                    10
Tumble                n/a                   6
Use Magic Device      0                    10

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Soldier of the Faith


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom III

Some things people may notice and question:

Yes, the character is wis-based. This will give a killer stunning fist DC and also adds significantly to AC. The to-hit for the build will be a bit low, but is only 4-6 points lower than it would be on a strength-based monk in earth stance. At 30 strength, and with some gear considerations and the divine favor clicky from the paladin past-life, I think it should be workable. For particularly tough bosses I can break out some destruction / improved destructoin kamas as debuffers.

I went with dwarf for the bonus to con, to make getting earth stance IV easier, and for the tactics DC increases. I'm not entirely sure about this choice, and would be interested in opinions on the race. I've also considered human, mostly for the healing amp, but the extra feat would be useful as well. Only problem is that getting enough intelligence for combat expertise is tough on a human template.

The feats are surprisingly tight... I'd have liked to fit in improved sunder, power attack, and more toughnesses (toughnii?). I could fit in at least two of those by dropping the two past-lives, and am thinking I probably should drop the monk PL for at least one of those (probably PA for levelling, then switching to IS at ~18). I'm reluctant to drop the paladin PL due to concerns over being able to hit epic bosses reliably.

Finally, the hitpoints. I calculate that he'll have 627 HP fully buffed (but that doesn't include madstone or Yugo, so could potentially be higher). That's not bad, but not great in the current field of stalwart / siberys defenders. I figure the monk-tank can make up for most (and hopefully all) of the lower than ideal HP with extraordinary levels of damage mitigation (25% incorp, DR 10/Epic, 20% damage reduction, and AC).

So, what say you forum experts? I'm especially interested in how this would compare to some more standard monk/paladin/fighter type of tank. Thanks!

[whomhead]

For reference, here's the monk/paladin/fighter tank I am also considering:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 12 Monk) 
Hit Points: 394
Spell Points: 155 
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 17
Will: 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    18
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         11                    13
Wisdom               16                    24
Charisma              9                    12

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    31
Bluff                -1                     1
Concentration         6                    30
Diplomacy            -1                     1
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                     1
Heal                  3                     7
Hide                  3                     8
Intimidate            1                    24
Jump                  5                    13
Listen                3                     7
Move Silently         3                     4
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     1
Spot                  3                     7
Swim                  2                     4
Tumble                4                     7
Use Magic Device      1                    12

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: WIS
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense I
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II

[Chette]

I much prefer a monk/paladin/fighter or monk/fighter for tanking over a pure monk. The DR is slightly less (missing the 10/epic and only 15% instead of 20%) but the potential HP gain is outstanding. Anywhere from 2-5 extra toughness feats plus a few enhancements and an additional 10% from stance.

What you've got here will certainly work really well for a lot of content!! But for your tougher bosses, elite tower/LoB, I think the HP will be just a bit too low.

I've never looked at going wisdom based on a monk tank. I have a wisdom based pure monk, but she's no tank, and my strength based monk can still reach 90 AC if she tries for it. I'd be interested to hear how this plays out

[KingofDiamondz]

I dont know monk builds very well, or AC builds, but I do know Power attack is a pre req for improved sunder. Just FYI.

[whomhead]

I much prefer a monk/paladin/fighter or monk/fighter for tanking over a pure monk. The DR is slightly less (missing the 10/epic and only 15% instead of 20%) but the potential HP gain is outstanding. Anywhere from 2-5 extra toughness feats plus a few enhancements and an additional 10% from stance.

What you've got here will certainly work really well for a lot of content!! But for your tougher bosses, elite tower/LoB, I think the HP will be just a bit too low.

I've never looked at going wisdom based on a monk tank. I have a wisdom based pure monk, but she's no tank, and my strength based monk can still reach 90 AC if she tries for it. I'd be interested to hear how this plays out

I was afraid that the HP would be low for those bosses. I can't see much of a way to increase the HP too much further without rendering it useless in most any content except tanking, which is what I'm trying to avoid here.

I dont know monk builds very well, or AC builds, but I do know Power attack is a pre req for improved sunder. Just FYI.

Yup. I forgot about that. Thanks for pointing it out!

[sephiroth1084]

Some thoughts I've had on a similar character: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=351615

The problem with going Wis-based is to-hit. The Epic Abishai Devastator, Hard, Elite and Epic LoB and some other bosses have rather high ACs, and it's very difficult to maintain aggro if you aren't hitting as often as everyone else is.

[Ravoc-DDO]

Pally 6 gets you Divine Righteousness, which you may need if you start tickling bosses with Kama's. Then again, it should be the party's responsability to provide (impr) destruction - if Turbine ever gets it fixed anyway.

[whomhead]

Some thoughts I've had on a similar character: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=351615

The problem with going Wis-based is to-hit. The Epic Abishai Devastator, Hard, Elite and Epic LoB and some other bosses have rather high ACs, and it's very difficult to maintain aggro if you aren't hitting as often as everyone else is.

Thank you for directing me to that thread. Some very good discussion there. It seems like we were thinking along very similar paths, and thus running into many of the same difficulties. I see that you got a similar AC range as I was calculating, but without CE. I guess you made up the difference by accounting for more gear and +3 tomes than I currently have. That's fine though, the gear will get there eventually, especially since I'm closing in on 20 shroud completions this life. It mostly makes me re-think taking CE at all, thus increasing strength a bit.

I would then probably go with a 16/16/16/8/16/6 starting stat spread. That plus divine favor clickies gets me in the range of ~43 self-buffed to-hit, which is respectable, if not maximal.

If I postulate the ideal gearing situation, that would put me at close to 700 HP. I might even consider putting +2 exceptional con on a ToD ring solely for tanking scenarios. That's still not a worry-free number, but I think that at that point the superior defensive capabilities of the pure monk build would be enough to make up for a few hundred HP...?

As was pointed out in your thread, the major stumbling block would be disentegrates from elite horoth, but I am having a hard time seeing how to get a character that can simultaneously laugh those off and still be useful outside of tanking situations.

Pally 6 gets you Divine Righteousness, which you may need if you start tickling bosses with Kama's. Then again, it should be the party's responsability to provide (impr) destruction - if Turbine ever gets it fixed anyway.

I haven't heard anything about improved destruction not working... what's the deal with that? In any case, the idea would be to bust out destruction/improved destruction kamas for the first couple of swings until both connect, then switch to wraps for the next minute. If necessary, then I can request that someone in the group keeps the boss nice and blue for me (and everyone else).

It is certainly the case that divine righteousness would be good, and I'm definitely a fan of the paladin splash, as I laid out in my second post. I freely admit that it is hard (impossible?) to see how a pure monk could be a superior tank to the paladin/fighter splash. I'm just trying to theory-craft a pure monk tank to see if it is worth spending a TR on to at least test it out reasonably.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Improved Destruction and Destruction currently don't stack so maximum of -4 to AC. I'd say that half-elf or human is definitely a better choice for healing amp which is the best thing that this build has going for it (even if that means you have to settle with Master of Stones until you pull a +3 or +4 constitution tome).

PL: Soldier of the Faith only gives 1 minute/3 day. Can't rely on this for tanking. Extend is a great option to double the effectiveness of this but you need a blue bar to qualify.

PL: Disciple of the Fist is a great feat and I'd take it on any build that had 4 or more monk levels (to get to double dice with item).

I was just doing some rough AB calcs for my 10k stars wisdom based archer and this is what I came up with:

Melee AB: 55 =20 base +11 str +5 wraps +4 ravens sight +2 ToD set +4 GH +3 SotF +1 yugo +4 ship (training dummy, kobold, strength shrine) +1 Haste

With this gear:
Head: Epic Helm of Mroranon
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Wretched Twilight
Boots: Madstone Boots
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets
Bracers: Windhowler Bracers
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Shintao Cord
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Armour: Epic Frozen Tunic (toughness)
Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker
Ring2: Kyosho's Ring (+2 exceptional strength)
Weapons: Epic Bow of Earth, Epic Thornlord, Air/Water Alchemic Bow, LitII GS Bow, Air/Water Alchemical Handwraps

Obviously my build has vastly different goals but a lot of the considerations are the same. The tricky part for you is combining AC, AB, Healing Amp, Hate Generation and DPS into one gear package or do you have a different set of epic gear for each situation?

For starters, I think that you have to assume an epic abishai set for the +3 profane AC. However, this basically excludes getting exceptional strength.

Head: Epic Helm of Frost
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak
Boots: Madstone Boots
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets (yellow: GFL)
Bracers: Epic Scorched Bracers
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Epic Grims Bracelet (+3 dodge, +7 strength, green: toughness)
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Armour: Icy Raiments
Ring1: Epic Ring of Baphomet (+15 intim, +2 exc str, +2 exc con, -1 int/wis)
Ring2: ToD ring (holy burst)
Weapons: Air/Water Alchemical Handwraps

Well most things are here at least and strength is maximised (+13) to help AB and damage though shintao set is lost. +2 dodge would be nice to slot but I don't see how that would be possible.

Possibly another option is to forget about AC (as it won't help you in epic raids anyway for the most part) and concentrate on damage mitigration and massive healing amp. This frees up a lot of slots, attribute points (as you don't need combat expertise), feats and inventory space.

Remember that the highest AC mobs in the game have 60-70 AC iirc so you want to be hitting consistently (though it's ok to rely on outside buffs/debuffs to make that happen to some extend).

[whomhead]

Improved Destruction and Destruction currently don't stack so maximum of -4 to AC. I'd say that half-elf or human is definitely a better choice for healing amp which is the best thing that this build has going for it (even if that means you have to settle with Master of Stones until you pull a +3 or +4 constitution tome).

PL: Soldier of the Faith only gives 1 minute/3 day. Can't rely on this for tanking. Extend is a great option to double the effectiveness of this but you need a blue bar to qualify.

PL: Disciple of the Fist is a great feat and I'd take it on any build that had 4 or more monk levels (to get to double dice with item).

I didn't know that about the destruction/improved destruction. That's quite a bummer.

The Soldier of the Faith past life actually gives 2:24 of Divine Favor, 3X per day. So that's over 7 minutes of +3 to-hit and damage. I know this to be the case because I have it on my 12/7/1 fighter/monk/rogue character who doesn't have extend. Obviously the Monk PL would be more damage over the course of the character's life, but the divine favor clicky adds equivalent damage plus the all-important attack boost for tough boss fights, so I would be inclined to take it instead (or maybe take the monk for levelling, then swap at 20).

I was just doing some rough AB calcs for my 10k stars wisdom based archer and this is what I came up with:

Melee AB: 55 =20 base +11 str +5 wraps +4 ravens sight +2 ToD set +4 GH +3 SotF +1 yugo +4 ship (training dummy, kobold, strength shrine) +1 Haste

With this gear:
Head: Epic Helm of Mroranon
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Wretched Twilight
Boots: Madstone Boots
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets
Bracers: Windhowler Bracers
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Shintao Cord
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Armour: Epic Frozen Tunic (toughness)
Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker
Ring2: Kyosho's Ring (+2 exceptional strength)
Weapons: Epic Bow of Earth, Epic Thornlord, Air/Water Alchemic Bow, LitII GS Bow, Air/Water Alchemical Handwraps

Obviously my build has vastly different goals but a lot of the considerations are the same. The tricky part for you is combining AC, AB, Healing Amp, Hate Generation and DPS into one gear package or do you have a different set of epic gear for each situation?

For starters, I think that you have to assume an epic abishai set for the +3 profane AC. However, this basically excludes getting exceptional strength.

Head: Epic Helm of Frost
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak
Boots: Madstone Boots
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets (yellow: GFL)
Bracers: Epic Scorched Bracers
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Epic Grims Bracelet (+3 dodge, +7 strength, green: toughness)
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Armour: Icy Raiments
Ring1: Epic Ring of Baphomet (+15 intim, +2 exc str, +2 exc con, -1 int/wis)
Ring2: ToD ring (holy burst)
Weapons: Air/Water Alchemical Handwraps

Well most things are here at least and strength is maximised (+13) to help AB and damage though shintao set is lost. +2 dodge would be nice to slot but I don't see how that would be possible.

Possibly another option is to forget about AC (as it won't help you in epic raids anyway for the most part) and concentrate on damage mitigration and massive healing amp. This frees up a lot of slots, attribute points (as you don't need combat expertise), feats and inventory space.

Remember that the highest AC mobs in the game have 60-70 AC iirc so you want to be hitting consistently (though it's ok to rely on outside buffs/debuffs to make that happen to some extend).

I am planning for two different gear sets, more or less, for tanking VS fighting trash. I say more or less because there is a fair bit of overlap, so maybe it's more like 1.5 gear sets. I was planning something like this:

Head: Epic Helm of Frost
Neck: Epic Grim's Bracelet / Shintao Cord
Goggles: Epic Goggles of Time-Sensing / Epic Raven Eye
Armor : Icy Raiments / Garments of Equilibrium / DT Robes (10/20/Earthgrab)
Belt: Min 2 Greensteel / Spare Hand
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets / Epic Brawn's Spirits
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw / Epic Charged Gauntlets / Epic Brawler's Gloves
Bracers: Epic Jidz-Tetka / Epic Scorched Bracers
Cloak: Epic Cloak of Night / Epic Envenomed
Boots: Anchoring / Epic Boots of Corrosion / Madstone
Ring 1: Kyosho's (holyburst)
Ring 2: Encrusted (acid burst) / something with +2 con and a useful +1 exceptional stat
Weapon: Air X3 Alchemical

Trying to plan on being able to tank in ToD is the biggest headache because the ideal set-up would use either Boots of Corrosion or Madstones in the boots slot. Would probably have to switch to the Epic Scorched Bracers to keep the 3-piece Abishai without the boots. The other tricky spots are where to fit in Greensteel (would probably be belt for bosses and then use the Spare hand for trash), and whether or not to use the Epic Gem of many facets to complete the Ravenseye/Claw sets.

I've been looking at a human build as well, and am sort of leaning that way myself. It becomes much easier stat-wise to do a good human build if you don't worry about CE. You do end up sacrificing some HP from the dwarf build, however. Some can be made up with a second toughness feat, but that seems like kind of a waste of the human bonus feat.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I didn't know that about the destruction/improved destruction. That's quite a bummer.

The Soldier of the Faith past life actually gives 2:24 of Divine Favor, 3X per day. So that's over 7 minutes of +3 to-hit and damage. I know this to be the case because I have it on my 12/7/1 fighter/monk/rogue character who doesn't have extend. Obviously the Monk PL would be more damage over the course of the character's life, but the divine favor clicky adds equivalent damage plus the all-important attack boost for tough boss fights, so I would be inclined to take it instead (or maybe take the monk for levelling, then swap at 20).

/facepalm. I don't know why I got it into my head that it only lasted for a minute, my bad. This looks much cooler for my archer life then to have ~15 minutes of +3/+3 for those longer raids (like LoB).

For leveling I'd definitely take SotF (probably both on the human one). The only time that PL: DotF will be better is in super longer raids when SotF runs out for quite a while (eLoB).

I am planning for two different gear sets, more or less, for tanking VS fighting trash. I say more or less because there is a fair bit of overlap, so maybe it's more like 1.5 gear sets. I was planning something like this:

Head: Epic Helm of Frost
Neck: Epic Grim's Bracelet / Shintao Cord
Goggles: Epic Goggles of Time-Sensing / Epic Raven Eye
Armor : Icy Raiments / Garments of Equilibrium / DT Robes (10/20/Earthgrab)
Belt: Min 2 Greensteel / Spare Hand
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets / Epic Brawn's Spirits
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw / Epic Charged Gauntlets / Epic Brawler's Gloves
Bracers: Epic Jidz-Tetka / Epic Scorched Bracers
Cloak: Epic Cloak of Night / Epic Envenomed
Boots: Anchoring / Epic Boots of Corrosion / Madstone
Ring 1: Kyosho's (holyburst)
Ring 2: Encrusted (acid burst) / something with +2 con and a useful +1 exceptional stat
Weapon: Air X3 Alchemical

Trying to plan on being able to tank in ToD is the biggest headache because the ideal set-up would use either Boots of Corrosion or Madstones in the boots slot. Would probably have to switch to the Epic Scorched Bracers to keep the 3-piece Abishai without the boots. The other tricky spots are where to fit in Greensteel (would probably be belt for bosses and then use the Spare hand for trash), and whether or not to use the Epic Gem of many facets to complete the Ravenseye/Claw sets.

I've been looking at a human build as well, and am sort of leaning that way myself. It becomes much easier stat-wise to do a good human build if you don't worry about CE. You do end up sacrificing some HP from the dwarf build, however. Some can be made up with a second toughness feat, but that seems like kind of a waste of the human bonus feat.

Geez, there's enough gear there for 3 characters! Well, almost. I guess if you don't mind having multiple epic items in the same slot then it can work.

I'd definitely encourage you to go air/water/air on your alchemicals, corrosion/crushing wave is just about as much DPS as lightning strike but the DoT keeps teleporting bosses coming back to you and the +2 alchemical wisdom will increase your DPS through ToD landing more often.

One option for tanking Horoth is to get a pale lavender ioun stone and mantle of the worldshaper (possibly epic phiarlan mirror cloak too). With enough spell absorption you'll be able to keep fighting through his stuns (which makes it much easier to handle surprise disintegrates etc). Obviously keep the boots for backup ...

If you're going to go for AC then I'd suggest to include a full ****** AC set. For that you want to add litany of the dead or nimble trinket (+1 or +2 AC depending on stats), +2 dodge item (epic cloak of night or perhaps cannith crafted goggles if you move the exceptional wisdom elsewhere) and possibly even switch to a +8 armour outfit (red dragonscale or frozen tunic for instance) so that you can benefit from artificer enchant armour spell (for another +1 AC) and use an epic staff of nat gann for the +4 dodge. Certainly a Nat Gann staff might be a good idea for tanking Horoth while the rest of the party beats on sully. This might free up slots too if you're planning to not need the holy burst on rings when horoth tanking as far as getting to the safe HP levels.

[sephiroth1084]

Thank you for directing me to that thread. Some very good discussion there. It seems like we were thinking along very similar paths, and thus running into many of the same difficulties. I see that you got a similar AC range as I was calculating, but without CE. I guess you made up the difference by accounting for more gear and +3 tomes than I currently have. That's fine though, the gear will get there eventually, especially since I'm closing in on 20 shroud completions this life. It mostly makes me re-think taking CE at all, thus increasing strength a bit.

I think keeping CE is reasonable, but dropping the Int likely means 1-3 more points of AC from other stats, maybe more HP, and more to-hit. Ultimately, I feel that, if you need a little more AC, you could always turn on defensive fighting for +2, but that you still need DPS to generate hate, so PA is preferred.
I would then probably go with a 16/16/16/8/16/6 starting stat spread. That plus divine favor clickies gets me in the range of ~43 self-buffed to-hit, which is respectable, if not maximal.
Not bad looking there.
If I postulate the ideal gearing situation, that would put me at close to 700 HP. I might even consider putting +2 exceptional con on a ToD ring solely for tanking scenarios. That's still not a worry-free number, but I think that at that point the superior defensive capabilities of the pure monk build would be enough to make up for a few hundred HP...?
I think the monk abilities definitely account for 100+ HP in most respects, but Disintegrates in ToD and the Mournlands debuff in LoB throw a wrench into things. Getting to around 700 for ToD is pretty safe territory, especially with healing amp, miss chance and damage mitigation, but for Elite and Epic LoB? I'm not so sure.
As was pointed out in your thread, the major stumbling block would be disentegrates from elite horoth, but I am having a hard time seeing how to get a character that can simultaneously laugh those off and still be useful outside of tanking situations.

It's tough. And I did account for a ****ton of gear, which is part of the reason that I haven't begun the process of TRing and gearing my character along this path as yet, and am hesitant to even bother. I have an AC tank already that is still getting geared up without having to double up on stuff for a second character following the same destiny, so to speak.

Also, in my case, I have a bunch of nifty epic items for monks that wouldn't fit into such a build, but that I want to use (Helm of the Mroranon, Jidz-teka, Brawler's...).

[whomhead]

/facepalm. I don't know why I got it into my head that it only lasted for a minute, my bad. This looks much cooler for my archer life then to have ~15 minutes of +3/+3 for those longer raids (like LoB).

For leveling I'd definitely take SotF (probably both on the human one). The only time that PL: DotF will be better is in super longer raids when SotF runs out for quite a while (eLoB).

I think that PL: SotF is less good while levelling since its duration follows that of the normal spell (24 seconds plus 6 seconds per caster level). So at level 3 it is only 3 X 30 seconds, which is pretty tough to use effectively. Hence my thoughts on levelling with PL: DotF and then switching to SotF once the duration is long enough to be worthwhile.

Geez, there's enough gear there for 3 characters! Well, almost. I guess if you don't mind having multiple epic items in the same slot then it can work.

I'd definitely encourage you to go air/water/air on your alchemicals, corrosion/crushing wave is just about as much DPS as lightning strike but the DoT keeps teleporting bosses coming back to you and the +2 alchemical wisdom will increase your DPS through ToD landing more often.

Heh, yeah. That's basically my ultimate gear wishlist. I've got about half of the stuff already, but almost all of that is the DPS-focused gear. Some of the slots (like goggles) have two listed because either would do, so it is just a matter of which one I get first.

Thanks for the tip on the alchemical wraps. I was focusing on airX3 mostly because of the doublestrike chance. Tier 2 water has +2 exceptional Wis, so that would give me some more flexibility in the goggles slot. Much easier to slot +4 attack crafted goggles there than either of the epics I'd been aiming for, and the exceptional Wis was the primary thing I liked about both goggles.

I also hadn't considered the Artificer bonus to armor, nor the possibility if a quarterstaff-based tanking set-up. Definitely wouldn't be my first priority, but I can see how that would be a nice option to have for certain circumstances.

It's tough. And I did account for a ****ton of gear, which is part of the reason that I haven't begun the process of TRing and gearing my character along this path as yet, and am hesitant to even bother. I have an AC tank already that is still getting geared up without having to double up on stuff for a second character following the same destiny, so to speak.

Also, in my case, I have a bunch of nifty epic items for monks that wouldn't fit into such a build, but that I want to use (Helm of the Mroranon, Jidz-teka, Brawler's...).

I'm jealous of your Epic Jidz. I've run eTides probably 40 times over the last few lives and only even seen a jidz shard in the chest a few times... and of course I've never gotten to roll on it. Oh well, the game's a journey not a destination, right? X-D

[sephiroth1084]

Remember that alchemical stats stack with exceptional, so you could do the epic goggles and tier II water for +4 Wis instead of one or the other for +2.

I hadn't actually thought about that facet of alchemical wraps, actually...the DoTs continuing to hit the boss even when he's out of melee range is actually probably more DPS and certainly more utility than Lightning Strike + double-strike 6%, and the Wis is doing more for you than the Dex is...

I had been looking at making a set of wraps with tier II fire for Righteousness for situations where to-hit really matters (you're missing on more than just a 1), even if the fire damage won't apply. Those would probably be a separate set of wraps and wouldn't want air on tier I as it would most likely be for bosses.

So, maybe 1 set of Air/Water and one set of Water/Fire or Fire/Fire?