Ban the Exploiters

[SoloPhalanx]

I spent 100 hours farming one of these items and it was not even one of the hardest ones to get somebody could easily trade now for one of these which they were unable to in the past. I was unlucky of course, but that is probability for you. Now somebody can get the same thing in minutes. That is 100 hours of my time wasted. My friend who spent years accumulating plat only to see his plat totally devalued was hurt as well. People who follow the rules are penalized by exploits whenever they come out. People prior to update 1 would have a second thought about doing an exploit or spreading that exploit around to others due to getting banned or having their account suspended but that is no longer the case. They would never spread something like this around in a trade channel in the past prior to update 1.

This game isn't PVP. Those people spent 100 hours getting other stuff they are now trading for the stuff they want. Its not like they are getting it from the air.

As for plat, it didnt devalue with this exploit. plat isnt coming in or out with this, so it has no effect

EDIT: The pvp comment was just to point out that just because that people now have items, that doesn't make you any better or worse. nothing has changed

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I do not think there is a real way to track this current bug that is happening. My understanding is that trades are not generally logged so as to be looked back on.

The trade chat log in the market over the weekend would be sufficient. I was floored by how nonchalant people were about it.

IBTL

[Gremmlynn]

I'm sorry, has there been some world-wide announcement in the news that cheating is no longer immoral? There is no hubris involved when someone actually does something that the whole world already knows is wrong.

I guess the morality of it would be a bit clearer if the rules were set in black and white and were written to support a level playing field. As it is they are very vague and subject to whatever interpretation the writer feels is in their best interest and written to support only their best interests. The rules aren't there to make the game more fun, they are there to maximize the game's profits. As such, I don't see how it's much of a moral issue at all unless we all concede that Turbines best interests supersede the interests of any or all the players. In order for cheating to be immoral, the rules must have a moral basis.

[cdr]

Turbine isn't going to do $#!^. The people that got warned for the supply chest expl*it might, might, get the two week ban they were threatened with if they get caught trading. Everyone else is going to go about their merry way.

It's possible (since this is an old expl*it reintroduced, after all) that they'll be able to fix it Monday, so today is the day to get in.

[pSINNa]

Most of the outrage i'm seeing in these posts seems directed at people doing the wrong thing, in whatever degree your ideas on morality and fair play categorise these actions.

The majority of outrage i saw expressed from guildmates in game apon hearing about this from various sources was that another serious flaw had been allowed to make it to live.

Two very different things. Two very different sets of offenders with very different offences.

Which ones should we really direct our venom at i wonder?

Coit out~

[HAL]

I guess the morality of it would be a bit clearer if the rules were set in black and white and were written to support a level playing field. As it is they are very vague and subject to whatever interpretation the writer feels is in their best interest and written to support only their best interests. The rules aren't there to make the game more fun, they are there to maximize the game's profits. As such, I don't see how it's much of a moral issue at all unless we all concede that Turbines best interests supersede the interests of any or all the players. In order for cheating to be immoral, the rules must have a moral basis.

I'm a little confused by your answer. I'm not talking about the rules. I'm talking about cheating which has the same definition in RL no matter where you go and what you're cheating at. Cheating is not open to interpretation.

[HAL]

This game isn't PVP. Those people spent 100 hours getting other stuff they are now trading for the stuff they want. Its not like they are getting it from the air.

As for plat, it didnt devalue with this exploit. plat isnt coming in or out with this, so it has no effect

EDIT: The pvp comment was just to point out that just because that people now have items, that doesn't make you any better or worse. nothing has changed

I think you missed the part about spending 100 hours trying to get something...

[maddmatt70]

This game isn't PVP. Those people spent 100 hours getting other stuff they are now trading for the stuff they want. Its not like they are getting it from the air.

As for plat, it didnt devalue with this exploit. plat isnt coming in or out with this, so it has no effect

EDIT: The pvp comment was just to point out that just because that people now have items, that doesn't make you any better or worse. nothing has changed

It would take me 5 hours or less even to get the equivalent item to trade for the item I needed. Turbine owes me 95 hours.. Plat was the central theme of a few previous exploits that Tubine did nothing about in the last year.

[Sierim]

I'm a little confused by your answer. I'm not talking about the rules. I'm talking about cheating which has the same definition in RL no matter where you go and what you're cheating at. Cheating is not open to interpretation.

If I may interject, the distinction is between cheating in the sense of "violating rules" and "acting in a manner to the benefit of one's self and to the detriment of another while giving the opposite appearance." While exploits generally include the former, the latter is what brings morality into the equation.

To borrow from D&D terminology, the former is a question of Law/Chaos, whereas the latter is Good/Evil. Most game exploits are dealt with on the Law/Chaos axis (hence referencing the ToS, which is a legal document, not a code of ethics), whereas RL cheating is typically dealt with on the Good/Evil axis (the question is one of harm, not legality). The two aren't comparable.

It would take me 5 hours or less even to get the equivalent item to trade for the item I needed. Turbine owes me 95 hours.. Plat was the central theme of a few previous exploits that Tubine did nothing about in the last year.

Your 100 hours is sunk cost, as you paid what you were willing to put in at the time. Others now pay a different cost. I see nothing owed to you on account of economic changes (black market or otherwise).

[gloopygloop]

It would take me 5 hours or less even to get the equivalent item to trade for the item I needed. Turbine owes me 95 hours.. Plat was the central theme of a few previous exploits that Tubine did nothing about in the last year.

How many hours does Turbine owe me for nerfing my Heavy Pick Kensai?

[maddmatt70]

If I may interject, the distinction is between cheating in the sense of "violating rules" and "acting in a manner to the benefit of one's self and to the detriment of another while giving the opposite appearance." While exploits generally include the former, the latter is what brings morality into the equation.

To borrow from D&D terminology, the former is a question of Law/Chaos, whereas the latter is Good/Evil. Most game exploits are dealt with on the Law/Chaos axis (hence referencing the ToS, which is a legal document, not a code of ethics), whereas RL cheating is typically dealt with on the Good/Evil axis (the question is one of harm, not legality). The two aren't comparable.


Your 100 hours is sunk cost, as you paid what you were willing to put in at the time. Others now pay a different cost. I see nothing owed to you on account of economic changes (black market or otherwise).

Ban them so exploits do not spread around and thus my 100 hours is not sunk cost. That is what law enforcement is all about. Prevention of the expansion of criminalitiy. Like I said people like me can leave this game i.e. the law abiding players or the exploiters can 'leave' the game. Turbine has to make a choice. I like law abiding players far more then exploiters..

[enteriiblackwater]

TBH the only time I ever find out there are exploits is when someone rages about it on the forums. Probably the same for most people as well.

So therefore the people that bring it up are responsible for 90% of the exploiters because now people who didnt know have to go find out what the exploit it is.

So it's the OP's fault Ban him.. J/K (but not about people posting there is an exploit as it causes multitudes to go find out what it is)

Ent

[maddmatt70]

How many hours does Turbine owe me for nerfing my Heavy Pick Kensai?

You honestly are comparing a heavy pick kensai change to an obvious bug exploit I mean come on dude.

[kailiea]

It would take me 5 hours or less even to get the equivalent item to trade for the item I need. Turbine owes me 95 hours..

Only 100 hours....wow

I can say I spent a lot more to get my gear and I don't be grudge anyone an easy out on the grind. The time requirements on getting some items borders on obscene. I spent 200 hours farming desert scrolls almost straight and I got 3 raid scrolls I needed and it still took a me a year to trade for the rest. Most of those trades had me give up ridiculous amounts of plat or ingredients that far superseded the items actual value.

I am sensing frustration and jealousy towards those taking advantage...and that is silly. I have heard a thousand times on these forums that gear does not make the player....but now all of a sudden it does? I am almost certain you have personally made that claim.

This is a game and an easy one at that....having toons with a few epic items won't change that fact because the ability to TR ad nauseum trumps gear any day :?

[Aelonwy]

There were people far more brazen than this. They were openly advertising this stuff in the trade channel.

I reported several of them. My tickets were closed in under five minutes, and the people I reported continued merrily advertising as they had been all along.

What sort of message does that send?

The message this sends (to me) is that we as the community should be less worried about the playerbases integrity and far, far more concerned about Turbine's integrity or lack thereof.

I've played for a little over two years now, the first as VIP, it was a great year... gave me a taste for the game, saw what I enjoyed, explored, experimented with characters. Went premium because it made more financial sense when I expected to be playing for years to come. This year though.... this year has been one disappointment after another, one collasal fubar after another. As it stands, not only do I have less respect for Turbine, i fear the mismanagement of the game will eventually bring it to circle the drain. I no longer expect to be playing for years to come, not only because as the months go by I am having less and less fun but also because I'm not sure the game will continue for many more years in the fashion that its going now.

[Deathdefy]

Ban them so exploits do not spread around and thus my 100 hours is not sunk cost. That is what law enforcement is all about. Prevention of the expansion of criminalitiy. Like I said people like me can leave this game i.e. the law abiding players or the exploiters can 'leave' the game. Turbine has to make a choice. I like law abiding players far more then exploiters..

It just isn't that black and white.

Banning every window farmer would be unfair due to no one getting hurt, and it being extremely rampant.

Banning every 'the exploit before this'-er would be fair due to the economy being ruined, and a select few who knew perfectly well that they were doing something very bad being involved.

This is very clearly somewhere between the two. To my mind, it's much closer to window farming in that it's innocuous and only seems to have 'hurt' people in an extraordinarily roundabout way.

[gloopygloop]

You honestly are comparing a heavy pick kensai change to an obvious bug exploit I mean come on dude.

Yep. I am.

Turbine made a change that made my hours of grind less "worthwhile".
Turbine added a bug that made your hours of grind less "worthwhile".

The biggest difference between the two is that your epic item is still just as useful today as it was last weekend.

[Sierim]

Ban them so exploits do not spread around and thus my 100 hours is not sunk cost. That is what law enforcement is all about. Prevention of the expansion of criminalitiy. Like I said people like me can leave this game i.e. the law abiding players or the exploiters can 'leave' the game. Turbine has to make a choice. I like law abiding players far more then exploiters..

Your hours are unrecoverable regardless of what happens at this point. Hence, they are a sunk cost.

In any case, regarding the current exploit, what changes is not the number of hours required to gain particular items. As far as I know, the drop rate (and thereby number of necessary hours) has stayed constant. In truth, it is the number of hours per person that has changed. The grind is still there, it's just spread out.

[maddmatt70]

Only 100 hours....wow

I can say I spent a lot more to get my gear and I don't be grudge anyone an easy out on the grind. The time requirements on getting some items borders on obscene. I spent 200 hours farming desert scrolls almost straight and I got 3 raid scrolls I needed and it still took a me a year to trade for the rest. Most of those trades had me give up ridiculous amounts of plat or ingredients that far superseded the items actual value.

I am sensing frustration and jealousy towards those taking advantage...and that is silly. I have heard a thousand times on these forums that gear does not make the player....but now all of a sudden it does? I am almost certain you have personally made that claim.

This is a game and an easy one at that....having toons with a few epic items won't change that fact because the ability to TR ad nauseum trumps gear any day :?

I spent at least as much time at the end game as you if not more as I am more of an end game player then you and you are more into trring overall. Alot of that is wasted time. Now I could trade for whatever I need easily due to some silly exploit - I feel cheated. I work in law enforcement myself and quite frankly I do not know why Turbine's policy has changed with exploiting.

[Vint]

I'm a little confused by your answer. I'm not talking about the rules. I'm talking about cheating which has the same definition in RL no matter where you go and what you're cheating at. Cheating is not open to interpretation.

Cheating is cheating, but this is a fantasy MMO here, not going into someone's house and stealing their possessions.

This is a game. A role playing fantasy MMO.

I find it silly that people are getting this upset about people that cheat in a video game. There is a good majority of people partaking in the event. You cannot convince me that they are all bad people destined for Hell just because they cheat on an MMO.

I'll say this though. I have been logging on running TOD every 3 days to get a ring. I am on run 76 without it, and if there is a way to get it now (sploit or not) I would do it. The grind ruins the fun for me personally. If the grind keeps you playing fine, but I hate it.

Call me crazy, but I thinks that this is an early Christmas present from Turbine for all the people that have been grinding forever.