Ban the Exploiters

[Kmnh]

As far as I have seen, the so called exploit is a nice feature. IF it stays there.

If they are "fixing" it, it will break the economy forever. New players will never catch up to the hordes of marilith chain+esos barbs.

[umeannothing]

I sure hope MajMal is sitting at his desk, giggling over this, I sure hope MajMal, has gone to his boss(es) and said "see, this is what happens when you rush things out the door without allowing more time to test and fix it"

I sure hope MajMal writes up a report saying ' In our failure to listen to players on Lamaland that have pointed out problems, in our failure to adequately fix bugs and issues before we send content to the players, in our failure to engage with our community using the community forums and LISTEN to our players, we have opened a second pandora's box in roughly a four week time frame"

I sure hope MajMal gets a pay raise for this going through, it is mind boggling how the decision to push this unfinished, uncertified, overly buggy, non fully functioning update out the door without allowing more time to test it.

Turbine has nobody but the person that made the decision to let this entire disgrace of an update go live to blame.

Players are players, they can only do in the game what the content allows them to do, and the players do not make the content, nor do they make the decision to release the content when it is clearly not in a state of readiness to be released.

/point........Fernando. Are you finally taking notice of what your decision has created, cause what it created is NOT good, contrary to what you may or my not have told YOUR bosses.

[mournbladereigns]

I seem to recall something about Mabar and mass bannings.

I should note the devs did make a public apology for that mix-up.

Anyway, my "you never know" comment specifically regarded the "randomly ban 10%" part of the suggestion.

DECIMATION FTW!

A unit selected for punishment by decimation was divided into groups of ten; each group drew lots (Sortition), and the soldier on whom the lot fell was executed by his nine comrades, often by stoning or clubbing. The remaining soldiers were given rations of barley instead of wheat and forced to sleep outside the Roman encampment.

Because the punishment fell by lot, all soldiers in the group were eligible for execution, regardless of the individual degree of fault, or rank and distinction.

The leadership was usually executed independently of the one in ten deaths of the rank and file.

[maddmatt70]

I can guarantee you haven't spent as much time in end game as me or any other member of Revenants except Clay

At least 75 percent of Revenants came from Legion back when it was a powerhouse myself included. Legion was always an end game guild which is why they had all those "firsts" and speed runs prior to a small core forming Revenants.

As for feeling cheated... I felt personally cheated when the scroll change came into play for the desert last update but that frustration soon passed because quite frankly myself like others just don't care anymore. Nothing Turbine does should surprise anyone at this point because the pattern has repeated itself since the game came into being.

If someone gave me the option of grinding the same 10 chests for 12 months or simply trading for said item... I would take the trade in a heart beat. However that comes from my experience at grinding endgame where it took 12 months or longer to get some seals or shards. There are still items I am missing pieces for and I have been at this a long time. I can absolutely understand people's frustration in this particular area and can understand wanting to alleviate that stress.

It actually becomes stressful when your at 120+ raid runs and never see the item you have been after. For a game that promised minimal grinding at its creation... they have most definitely strayed far from that path.

You really should not comment on Server oriented things as you do not understand Khyber. I honestly would rather never play a single tr and just solely play the end game it is just much more fun for me to do so. That I have trrd a couple of characters severly, Jacquiej and Boomsticks, is much to my chagrin. This will be both their last trrs that I can promise. I love the end game. I follow the rules that Turbine has put forth regarding the end game and try to get my gear the right way according to their rules. I play the end game all the time. I raid my *** off and do all the other end game stuff. When I see that trivialized I get p.o.d.

These days you are more of a tr player well think of it this way say the next exploit was that somebody could pick up the completionist feat without having qualified for it or somebody could earn 400k experience for doing quest x on casual. How would you feel about that? I mean at this point Turbine has totally allowed for Plat and end game gear to be marginilized without doing anything about these bugs. Next xp will get an exploit and people will want to avoid that grind of course so do the cheat thus triviliazing all the work you did. That sound good to you?

[Ziindarax]

Hope calling exploiters idiots made you feel better, that aside, it seems pretty idiotic to think that merely merging servers will make your game experience the same, based on the scale this seems to be spread, there will be a reduction in revenue if every participant in this bug were perm banned. That reduction in revenue will be seen in lower development productivity.

As it stands right now, it seems to me everyone who's run quests has the same chance to trade loot, longer term players have more to trade, but that's the same as always. Nobody is worse off, heck in the case of some quests / one new raid in particular, I can now see reasons to take healers to help the group whilst not preventing you from getting gear on the toon you want.

An exploit that means people can and will take healers/casters/ or alts in instead of waiting is not bad, it reflects how the standard of binding loot has had a detrimental effect on the game in times past.

There will be a reduction in revenue from those fed up with the tolerance of exploiting bugs canceling their VIP subs, or deciding to no longer buy Turbine Points. Better to lose revenue from banning cheaters/exploiters than to lose revenue from the rule-abiding players quitting and then warning their friends/communities to stay far, FAR away from this game.

[mournbladereigns]

I can guarantee you haven't spent as much time in end game as me or any other member of Revenants except Clay

At least 75 percent of Revenants came from Legion back when it was a powerhouse myself included. Legion was always an end game guild which is why they had all those "firsts" and speed runs prior to a small core forming Revenants.

As for feeling cheated... I felt personally cheated when the scroll change came into play for the desert last update but that frustration soon passed because quite frankly myself like others just don't care anymore. Nothing Turbine does should surprise anyone at this point because the pattern has repeated itself since the game came into being.

If someone gave me the option of grinding the same 10 chests for 12 months or simply trading for said item... I would take the trade in a heart beat. However that comes from my experience at grinding endgame where it took 12 months or longer to get some seals or shards. There are still items I am missing pieces for and I have been at this a long time. I can absolutely understand people's frustration in this particular area and can understand wanting to alleviate that stress.

It actually becomes stressful when your at 120+ raid runs and never see the item you have been after. For a game that promised minimal grinding at its creation... they have most definitely strayed far from that path.

OK Turbine, if a bunch of vet players can just trade for this stuff with guildies/friends, which I am sure they all did in excess cause they have wasted years banging their heads against epics, it's totally unfair I have to grind for Epic lootz too. I demand you put this stuff in the store so I can buy my sweet Epic Lootz, where my Torc at! And some Alchemical weapons too!

If I can't have Cheat to Win, I demand Pay to Win! Cause that at least keeps the servers running

[Gremmlynn]

I'm a little confused by your answer. I'm not talking about the rules. I'm talking about cheating which has the same definition in RL no matter where you go and what you're cheating at. Cheating is not open to interpretation.

Now I'm confused. Who got cheated here? All I saw was some people avoiding game code that was basically written to protect the massive grind that this game uses as a replacement for some sort of meaningful endgame.

[GotSomeQuestions]

These days you are more of a tr player well think of it this way say the next exploit was that somebody could pick up the completionist feat without having qualified for it or somebody could earn 400k experience for doing quest x on casual. How would you feel about that? I mean at this point Turbine has totally allowed for Plat and end game gear to be marginilized without doing anything about these bugs. Next xp will get an exploit and people will want to avoid that grind of course so do the cheat thus triviliazing all the work you did. That sound good to you?

That actually happened, check the release notes (no more power leveling in Challenges). It didn't bother me, though. I TR because I enjoy playing the 1-19 quests, not because I want +1 to my spell penetration check. If you gave me the chance to get 4 million xp without questing, I wouldn't bother, because I'm here to quest. I couldn't care less what gear/feats/plat other characters have; as long as I'm having fun with my friends I'll keep playing.

[maddmatt70]

That actually happened, check the release notes (no more power leveling in Challenges). It didn't bother me, though. I TR because I enjoy playing the 1-19 quests, not because I want +1 to my spell penetration check. If you gave me the chance to get 4 million xp without questing, I wouldn't bother, because I'm here to quest. I couldn't care less what gear/feats/plat other characters have; as long as I'm having fun with my friends I'll keep playing.

Nope. I am talking about reducing the xp grind to 20 quests for a double true reincarnation which is in line with some of the reduction of the time grind to the end game with this bug. I have no idea about the reduction you are talking about because it is close to the same time grind even with this challenge thing you still were getting close to the same xp per minute with or without doing it. It would still take someone X hours to level the same as now or before. Lets say that for doing trial by fire you got 400k xp each time. You would level from 12-18 in a little over an hour. That is the sort of bug that I am talking about which could happen sometime down the road and totally trivialize trring. Turbine has demonstrated since update 1 a lack of willingness to take a stand on exploits. That is shoddy policy.

[kailiea]

You really should not comment on Server oriented things as you do not understand Khyber. I honestly would rather never play a single tr and just solely play the end game it is just much more fun for me to do so. That I have trrd a couple of characters severly, Jacquiej and Boomsticks, is much to my chagrin. This will be both their last trrs that I can promise. I love the end game. I follow the rules that Turbine has put forth regarding the end game and try to get my gear the right way according to their rules. I play the end game all the time. I raid my *** off and do all the other end game stuff. When I see that trivialized I get p.o.d.

These days you are more of a tr player well think of it this way say the next exploit was that somebody could pick up the completionist feat without having qualified for it or somebody could earn 400k experience for doing quest x on casual. How would you feel about that? I mean at this point Turbine has totally allowed for Plat and end game gear to be marginilized without doing anything about these bugs. Next xp will get an exploit and people will want to avoid that grind of course so do the cheat thus triviliazing all the work you did. That sound good do you?

I don't have a completionist feat on my account and haven't TR'd in 6 months. I am done with that aspect of the game and as a testament to that I have used +5 hearts of wood to lesser toons into the new flavor of the month so to speak. My guild does like to TR... but others in my guild, like myself don't TR anymore......

As for me not commenting on "server" related things you brought up the point initially by saying you have run more end game than me and I have a pretty good "grasp" on Khyber....they are very inefficient and slow to change. Just because "we" have been conditioned to grind ad nauseum does not make it right which is why the 20th reward system was added. People complained a lot and the fact that this particular exploit is being abused by practically everyone is a testament to the fact that people are sick of the grind.

This particular little exploit doesn't trivialize any of my or my guild mates in game achievements. If somebody wants to exploit xp more power to them, but they will not understand how to use their character when it get to 20. As discussed before by many people gear or even TR's do not make the player...they don't hurt though. Our achievements stemmed from co ordination and skill... and some exploit is not going to change that. There is no point working yourself up into a frenzy over digital junk because it is not worth it.

[kailiea]

There will be a reduction in revenue from those fed up with the tolerance of exploiting bugs canceling their VIP subs, or deciding to no longer buy Turbine Points. Better to lose revenue from banning cheaters/exploiters than to lose revenue from the rule-abiding players quitting and then warning their friends/communities to stay far, FAR away from this game.

Are you saying that exploiters don't spend Turbine points? I would wager the exploiters are putting in more time and money than some of those law abiding citizens

[Straton]

1st : Sometimes when new updates arrive they can break something creating a bug or exploit that is completely unforeseen. This is very hard for QA or Test Servers to catch. For example lets say you were replacing a faulty switch in your house, you might check some of the electrical installation after you do that but you would never think to check the plumbing. This is how code works, and in games as complex and so full of features as ddo it's almost impossible to check if everything is functioning correctly afterwards.

That was my defense for Turbine.

2nd : As far as the exploits are concerned, and as this is a PVE game and not a PVP one, I do not care!!!! I ve been playing this game almost since release, i ve put a lot of time and money into it but have also been rewarded with hours of fun and a great community. Why would it bother me if someone got an item that took me months of grinding in just a few minutes? Does it hurt my questing? No, it actually makes it easier!! Does it hurt if all the healers in my next tough quest have an E RoSS? No, it will save me the pots I would normally pass to them. Does it hurt my healer if all the barbs in my next group have an ESoS and an EMari Chain? No they ll kill everything faster and make my life easier.

Just my 2cp

/Galard

[kailiea]

OK Turbine, if a bunch of vet players can just trade for this stuff with guildies/friends, which I am sure they all did in excess cause they have wasted years banging their heads against epics, it's totally unfair I have to grind for Epic lootz too. I demand you put this stuff in the store so I can buy my sweet Epic Lootz, where my Torc at! And some Alchemical weapons too!

If I can't have Cheat to Win, I demand Pay to Win! Cause that at least keeps the servers running

Lol if you think Pay to win will make you a better player good luck with that....as for cheat to win that doesn't make you a better player either.

If you want to blow real world money on digital junk more power to you just realize it won't net you anything in the end

[Gremmlynn]

That's rediculous. The only way not to realize what was going on was not intended was willful blindness. Cheating is still cheating and breaking the rules is still breaking the rules. BtA and BtC are very black and white.

No, those designations were put in to protect the games grind and keep people paying. The fact that Turbines mistake is what allows them to be avoided is why it doesn't bother me much. They only screwed themselves here IMO.

[maddmatt70]

Now I'm confused. Who got cheated here? All I saw was some people avoiding game code that was basically written to protect the massive grind that this game uses as a replacement for some sort of meaningful endgame.

There you have it. If DDO is just about grind and there is nothing underneath and there comes an exploit that allows people to avoid this grind then there is nothing to play so then we all should just quit. Perhaps some of the grind was actually fun and less grindy then put forth, but still a grind and well it kind of sucks if people can just hurdle that including yourself. I could just hurdle the grind and then quit sounds good..

[SoloPhalanx]

Nope. I am talking about reducing the xp grind to 20 quests for a double true reincarnation which is in line with some of the reduction of the time grind to the end game with this bug. I have no idea about the reduction you are talking about because it is close to the same time grind even with this challenge thing you still were getting close to the same xp per minute with or without doing it. It would still take someone X hours to level the same as now or before. Lets say that for doing trial by fire you got 400k xp each time. You would level from 12-18 in a little over an hour. That is the sort of bug that I am talking about which could happen sometime down the road and totally trivialize trring. Turbine has demonstrated since update 1 a lack of willingness to take a stand on exploits. That is shoddy policy.

That analogy would be correct if those people had ran thousands of quests before getting no xp. Your comparison is so flawed it's not even funny.

[NaturalHazard]

There you have it. If DDO is just about grind and there is nothing underneath and there comes an exploit that allows people to avoid this grind then there is nothing to play so then we all should just quit. Perhaps some of the grind was actually fun and less grindy then put forth, but still a grind and well it kind of sucks if people can just hurdle that including yourself. I could just hurdle the grind and then quit sounds good..

Just curious matt what do you think will happen to the game if everyone who took part in this exploit got the old perma bann? Im not sure I want this because I dont want to log in and only see 1 epic quest on the lfm panel for the past 3 hours or so.

[Gremmlynn]

For those of you who don't know, or don't get it, an exploit is using a system/object/etc in the game that is not working as intended to bypass the rules and thereby gaining an unfair advantage over other players. For you Robin Hood idiots out there... got nothing, just the idiot part.

Exploiters should have their accounts banned not just the toons that they committed the act(s) upon. If that makes people flee the game then just consolidate a server or two, and those that remain will have a better playing environment as a result.

Lol, this is a pvp game, there is no such thing as an "unfair advantage over other players". Just unfair advantages over mobs who aren't programed to care one way or the other.

Also, Turbines goal isn't to give players some mythical better playing environment for well behaved players. It's providing a satisfactory playing environment for well paying players. Any action that causes the consolidation of a server or two would seem counter to this.

[Rhysem]

That's not a reason that we can't look at improvements moving forward.

They've spent 11 years not improving with people foaming at the mouth just as much. Feel free to hold you breath waiting.

They *have* learned during that time to ignore all the idiotic requests for rollbacks or shutting down the servers. That brilliant decision (doing a shutdown + rollback) in AC eventually led to them giving players other (in-game) compensation, plus free subscription time.

Just sayin'. This is the company that ended up branded with the motto in AC: "Exploit Early, Exploit Often!"

[testing1234]

new players dont want to join a game in the aftermath of a game exploit as they know they can never catch up to the old cheaters who are now a significant portion of the game population.
seen this in other online games and its not pretty.
basically your left with a game nobody wants to join which on the whole normally isnt a positive thing

you punish people to keep them from abusing rules since you cant afford to never mess up your code or always fix it fast enough, its just a cheaper option

lets try to be practical and realistic, there isnt such a thing as a victim-less crime nor can you make a omelet without breaking a few eggs

quick and brutal punishment would be my suggestion not the best possible solution but practical and better then doing nothing