**Best Rune Arm to Use (Toven's Hammer vs. Lucid Dreams)**

[sirgog]

As to the point of the thread: 7/1/1 x2, and use both situationally is the best way to go.

This, unless your Artificer isn't particularly geared (no Torc, no Except Int +2) but has a Tier 3 Toven's Hammer. In that case use Toven's almost all the time.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Oh please I just typed this thread up when I was at a coffee shop being bored sorry if I left out ONE CON....get out of here.

If you intent to flame every poster who points something out, and be unbelievably stuck-up about it; you can count on being nitpicked.

[Deathdefy]

Toven's Hammer's biggest con is easily that it is a reflex save, so many mobs non-lightning immune mobs take no damage at end-game, and even those without evasion save most of the time.

Lucid Dreams' biggest pro is that it targets the will save, meaning many mobs will fail moderate DCs often, and high DCs most of the time even in epics, resulting in a ton more damage. It's also why I'm skeptical that the force crit lines aren't worth taking to the exclusion of lightning for regular mega failed save crits; I do see the argument for taking both lines though.

Toven's and Lit II do stack:

I am near certain I would have seen a post linking Eladrin's "it's going to be changed" post in one of the many threads mentioning that they stack if it existed.

I've always found Artificers very AP tight... but I do like getting all the crit enhancements. You really do crit reasonably often if you have even a normal lore item in addition to the enhancement line (or major lore... superior lore item if you're lucky enough to have an epic Cloak of the Zephyr).

For me, I think the answer is full force: all lines due to the regular failed saves making crits even better and nothing save Crateos and Arach's Knight being immune. Or, 7/1/1 lightning 7/1/1 force; though I would go full lightning and 1/1/1 force if I ever did get that epic cloak.

[Jaid314]

This, unless your Artificer isn't particularly geared (no Torc, no Except Int +2) but has a Tier 3 Toven's Hammer. In that case use Toven's almost all the time.

well, even if you're not geared you'll still want the lucid dreams for most boss fights (in most boss fights, you're not getting attacked and the +25% DPS from an extra bolt is worth more than the possible loss in saves and xbow damage). plus the fact that there are at least a couple of raid bosses immune to lightning (abbot, lailat) and that there are also raid bosses that get evasion on higher difficulties (LoB as i understand it? also abbot, but he's immune in the first place).

but then, i would speculate that's basically what you meant when you said "almost all of the time", since relatively speaking raid bosses tend to take up a lot less of the time playing the game for most people

in any event, even if you're only geared with a toven's hammer tier 3 and no other named goodies beyond a baseline lucid dreams, you'll still probably want 7/1/1 in both lines and you'll still probably want to use both rune arms. if artificer wasn't so bloody starved for AP, i'd say consider spending full strength in one line and partial in the other, but frankly if i had 100 AP i'm not sure i could fit in every artificer enhancement i would want... basically, i don't consider whether or not you have a torc or +2 exc int item to be the deciding factors. you're going to want toven's hammer either way for most trash, and you're going to want lucid dreams either way for most bosses, and on rare occasions may find a use for one of the other rune arms (not that, say, glorious obscenity is bad... it's just not your best general-purpose, and you likely don't have the AP to invest much into special-purpose).

[SirValentine]

Lucid Dreams Pros:
<snip>
-1,000+ pt Blade Barrier crits (when specc’d properly with enhancements of course)

OK, I'm not an Arty, but I looked at the Lucid Dreams wiki page.

How is Lucid Dreams any better for Blade Barrier than any other gearing that gives you Superior Potency VI and Arcane Lore? And plain old Arcane Lore isn't that great, as Greater, (effective) Major, and Superior Lore affecting BBs are available in-game. What am I missing that makes Lucid Dreams so awesome for BBs compared with many other gear possibilities?

[Ravoc-DDO]

I don't have first hand experience with artificers yet, but at first sight I would think using Toven's Hammer for melee & ranged, and Lucid Dreams for casting & lightning resistant mobs; taking both lines to 7/1/1.

Also work in Torc so you have flexibility to maintain TKE whenever you want, regardless of rune-arm.

[Jaid314]

OK, I'm not an Arty, but I looked at the Lucid Dreams wiki page.

How is Lucid Dreams any better for Blade Barrier than any other gearing that gives you Superior Potency VI and Arcane Lore? And plain old Arcane Lore isn't that great, as Greater, (effective) Major, and Superior Lore affecting BBs are available in-game. What am I missing that makes Lucid Dreams so awesome for BBs compared with many other gear possibilities?

investing maximum AP in lucid dreams also means investing in maximum for blade barrier.

in other words, the actual advantage might be better summed up as "force has a lot of synergy with various rather good regular artificer spells" (for example, tactical detonation and prismatic strike also benefit from force damage investments).

this is why, for example, many people widely acknowledge that glorious obscenity has the highest potential damage... but consider lucid dreams to be superior for most people to use because quite frankly, you're much much much more likely to have good investment in force damage than you are to have good investment in acid damage.

[Juggle]

investing maximum AP in lucid dreams also means investing in maximum for blade barrier.

in other words, the actual advantage might be better summed up as "force has a lot of synergy with various rather good regular artificer spells" (for example, tactical detonation and prismatic strike also benefit from force damage investments).

this is why, for example, many people widely acknowledge that glorious obscenity has the highest potential damage... but consider lucid dreams to be superior for most people to use because quite frankly, you're much much much more likely to have good investment in force damage than you are to have good investment in acid damage.

Correct. This thread topic is to point out that both rune arms are very good, and both have their situational advantages. If you're fighting a boss immune to lightning, sorry toven's hammer isn't going to be as effective. If you're fighting lots of epic mobs in large quantities (i.e. EDA) Toven's Hammer is the way to go. By taking both enhancement lines you have the versatility of both rune arms, and 1000pt blade barriers and all that jazz. That's the point. Case closed.

[MRMechMan]

I know this, read the OP thanks. It's a toss-up between the two this shows the benefits of both and so on. Move on.

Classy, I like it.




But seriously, if someone points out a HUGE oversight on your part, just take it like a man and admit you forgot something...it's pretty obvious what happened-you DID NOT assume the reader knew the 4 vs 5 shots like you said...you just forgot it.

Don't try and blame the reader because YOU messed up. Have at least some honesty, anyone can edit their posts to try and make someone look bad when it is actually THEIR fault.

[MysteryNotes]

Toven’s Hammer Cons:

-Some bosses (i.e. Lord of Blades) and monsters (portals in Shroud) are immune to lightning

If i recall correctly, the LOB is NOT immune to lightning.
He only has resistance to it.

[Dark-Star]

If i recall correctly, the LOB is NOT immune to lightning.
He only has resistance to it.

You recall correctly.

[Adrenas]

yes, but not the way it is supposed to according to the devs.



here's the wiki entry for toven's hammer.
here is the one for lucid dreams.

feel free to tell me where in those descriptions it mentions the actual number of bolts fired by either of them. it is not stated anywhere, it is not immediately obvious that toven's hammer only has 4 bolts at tier 5 charge, and you didn't mention this very significant piece of information in your post which supposedly is supposed to help people decide which rune arm to use. it is a significant DPS boost which you have not taken into account, one which is larger than the DPS boost from an infusion that you specifically mentioned as providing an advantage to toven's hammer.

providing useful and relevant information is not trolling. you may not like it that i'm pointing out places where your guide is lacking. too bad. you would do better to update your OP to include that information than to whine and complain about those who provide the information your OP did not provide.

I'll drop in some more info on Toven's that isn't in the wiki. The lightning blasts all come out one behind the next in a straight line, unlike lucid dreams with the spread of charges. Truth is that that is one of Lucid Dreams biggest cons, the spread is so wide that the extra bolt it has over toven's isn't going to hit in many situations. Toven's always blasts straight ahead. Of course on many bosses the room is big enough (or you can get close enough) that all bolts from Lucid Dreams will hit.

In my honest opinion the rune arm enhancement lines need to be removed and the same benefits gained via granted feats at various levels. The arti class is too AP starved right now imo and if tier 2 and 3 prestige are ever added then points will have to come out of vital enhancements to get them. Arti's should have great rune arm ability without the AP, unlike with buffing say a bow or a blade.. you actually have to know what you're doing and put some effort into properly using the rune arm. Or maybe they could just make the arti electricity spells not completely suck and not have horrible DC?

In reading this thread I noticed that FAR more time was spent nit-picking and insulting the OP (and the OP returning the favor) than actually discussing which is the better rune arm or how to spec for them. That's shameful and you should feel ashamed for it, especially considering that the topic of the post is a very good question that is up for debate.